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Awe5ome

German BB's need some buffs

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I have grinded the German BB's from Nassau to Kurfurst and I'll say this, almost every single ship from T3-T9 suck. The best of the line is only meh and the T9 don't get me started because that thing is only good for mining salt. With the introduction of the soviet paper- I mean battleships the point of the Germans is to get close and brawl but now the new ship line does it better than any German ship could ever possibly hope to do it. I mean WG has refrained from buffing them because of their superior armour and secondaries. But anyone who's played the german line will tell you they don't have nearly as good of armour as you're told. Bow-on at ranges of less than 5km the germans are pretty tanky but and kind of plunging fire from any angle will result in a minimum of 2k damage and can sometimes go as high as 10k. Something that Yuro once said resonates extremely well "no matter how good your armour, no matter your superior german engineering you will be sunk." and that's absolutely true. Germans have few small guns with shotgun dispersion and secondaries that are only useful if you're broadside on top of the fact that their armour has been trumped by the new paper ships. I took a screenshot of a game in my Bismarck where I ran aiming expert instead of secondaries and closed the range on my enemies to about 13km or less. Please keep in mind that every sing shot I fired was within ~13km of my target.

76D9F5C1FA33EA81834E2478737E744F967A294637C5F4D9266CC985C1D758CDED45E9E918331AC3

1810981117_Bismarckshooting.png.732f751bebdc7b3136f65693843511bc.png

HE hit ratio

10/24 = 0.42 x 100 = 42%

AP hit ratio

24/72 = 0.33 x 100 = 33%

total hit ratio

34/96 = 0.35 x 100 = 35%

Now  to compare it to a same tier BB with 8 15" guns Vanguard.

605176933_Vanguardcomparison.png.ae433fad19516eae0f683623f79313c1.png

total hit ratio

52/72 = 0.72 x 100 = 72%

Since WG balances ship based on numbers I thought I'd show my work and the numbers to prove what I've been saying, that the German BB's have been power crept to hell and should get more accurate guns. Seriously buff the german guns! 

 

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30 minutes ago, Awe5ome said:

I have grinded the German BB's from Nassau to Kurfurst and I'll say this, almost every single ship from T3-T9 suck. The best of the line is only meh and the T9 don't get me started because that thing is only good for mining salt. With the introduction of the soviet paper- I mean battleships the point of the Germans is to get close and brawl but now the new ship line does it better than any German ship could ever possibly hope to do it. I mean WG has refrained from buffing them because of their superior armour and secondaries. But anyone who's played the german line will tell you they don't have nearly as good of armour as you're told. Bow-on at ranges of less than 5km the germans are pretty tanky but and kind of plunging fire from any angle will result in a minimum of 2k damage and can sometimes go as high as 10k. Something that Yuro once said resonates extremely well "no matter how good your armour, no matter your superior german engineering you will be sunk." and that's absolutely true. Germans have few small guns with shotgun dispersion and secondaries that are only useful if you're broadside on top of the fact that their armour has been trumped by the new paper ships. I took a screenshot of a game in my Bismarck where I ran aiming expert instead of secondaries and closed the range on my enemies to about 13km or less. Please keep in mind that every sing shot I fired was within ~13km of my target.

76D9F5C1FA33EA81834E2478737E744F967A294637C5F4D9266CC985C1D758CDED45E9E918331AC3

1810981117_Bismarckshooting.png.732f751bebdc7b3136f65693843511bc.png

HE hit ratio

10/24 = 0.42 x 100 = 42%

AP hit ratio

24/72 = 0.33 x 100 = 33%

total hit ratio

34/96 = 0.35 x 100 = 35%

Now  to compare it to a same tier BB with 8 15" guns Vanguard.

605176933_Vanguardcomparison.png.ae433fad19516eae0f683623f79313c1.png

total hit ratio

52/72 = 0.72 x 100 = 72%

Since WG balances ship based on numbers I thought I'd show my work and the numbers to prove what I've been saying, that the German BB's have been power crept to hell and should get more accurate guns. Seriously buff the german guns! 

 

Except Main Battery isn't the strength where German BBs excel in, it's Citadel protection, deck armor, speed, secondaries.

 

Vanguard pays for it by anyone sneezing at her broadside and she instantly implodes.

 

People are NOT going to get a BB Line that is simultaneously blessed in speed, good deck armor, citadel protection, great secondaries, AND accurate guns to go with that.

 

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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7 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

People are NOT going to get a BB Line that is simultaneously blessed in speed, good deck armor, citadel protection, great secondaries, AND accurate guns to go with that.

Ohio

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2 minutes ago, Ossiuum said:

Ohio

Only one knot faster than Yamato, which makes it the second slowest T10 BB, and the same accuracy as Montana with 8 guns instead of 12.

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5 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Except Main Battery isn't the strength where German BBs excel in, it's Citadel protection, deck armor, speed, secondaries.

 

Vanguard pays for it by anyone sneezing at her broadside and she instantly implodes.

 

People are NOT going to get a BB Line that is simultaneously blessed in speed, good deck armor, citadel protection, great secondaries, AND accurate guns to go with that.

 

Except Germans don't get decent armour values, want a ship with better armour and better guns get the kremlin. Deck armour ha! Let's name ships with better deck armour than Kurfurst (50mm), Kremlin (60mm), Yamato (57), Republic (150), Hood (51), oh and the Moskva has the same armour deck thickness of 50mm. Speed the Republic goes faster, Montana goes the same speed and the Kurfurst only beats out the Conq, Yammy and Kremlin. France gets the same secondaries and more of them, with more accurate, larger guns. Oh, and the Japanese get decent secondaries and they get the largest most accurate battleship guns in the game. Besides secondaries are pretty much useless in the current meta. They're only good against DD's lightly armoured targets like CL's and some CA's but guess what? Every single cruiser will be hiding behind an island shooting your superstructure setting fires and doing damage and as for DD's if you're close enough to spot a DD with hydro chances are you're already dead. The secondaries will only do damage to enemy bb's superstructures or 32mm if you invest into IFHE but that's a massive waste of four points.

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8 minutes ago, tfcas119 said:

and the same accuracy as Montana with 8 guns instead of 12.

Ohio.png.d68a9412c1f11ea116042427c93aa53c.pngMonty.png.505cc2273a48f90e0e9db85d50f43c2b.png

 

Monty: 296m with 1.9 sigma

Ohio: 274m with 2.0 sigma

Ohio is more accurate.

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If you you have the time to listen to any developer talk about German ships they are statistically fine. The buffs to secondaries only adds to damage they put out. If you are not good in those ships then there are other lines for you play. Lets not be ignorant that every ship should fit every player. I think we all want the Germans to be a ceartin way but they are not and that has nothing to do with how they play it is the captains fault. Its a mind set before you play and being more accepting of that would and will make you a better player.

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19 minutes ago, Ossiuum said:

Ohio

LOL Ohio doesn't look all that.  She's very slow and the accuracy that I've been watching in all her post-release videos is pretty mediocre a.f.  The secondaries are great, above and beyond what Montana has, but... Who gives a sh*t when she only goes 28kts?  That, and like Montana, you can Citadel her just fine.

 

PLUS:  Ohio is an RB ship.

 

You guys want to make a standard set by an RB ship as justification to give German BBs AS A LINE, to get good accuracy on top of all their other strengths?

No.

Not only no.

But a hell no.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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9 minutes ago, Awe5ome said:

Except Germans don't get decent armour values, want a ship with better armour and better guns get the kremlin. Deck armour ha! Let's name ships with better deck armour than Kurfurst (50mm), Kremlin (60mm), Yamato (57), Republic (150), Hood (51), oh and the Moskva has the same armour deck thickness of 50mm. Speed the Republic goes faster, Montana goes the same speed and the Kurfurst only beats out the Conq, Yammy and Kremlin. France gets the same secondaries and more of them, with more accurate, larger guns. Oh, and the Japanese get decent secondaries and they get the largest most accurate battleship guns in the game. Besides secondaries are pretty much useless in the current meta. They're only good against DD's lightly armoured targets like CL's and some CA's but guess what? Every single cruiser will be hiding behind an island shooting your superstructure setting fires and doing damage and as for DD's if you're close enough to spot a DD with hydro chances are you're already dead. The secondaries will only do damage to enemy bb's superstructures or 32mm if you invest into IFHE but that's a massive waste of four points.

The fact you think German BBs got bad armor values shows you don't know what's going on with Battleships.

Kremlin also has an actual Citadel to protect, otherwise she quickly folds.  She gets the gunnery she gets because of this, coupled with garbage Secondaries.

Yamato also has a notoriously soft Citadel that's easily exploited when a mistake is made, or someone got a positional advantage on them.

Republique doesn't have "150" mm deck armor.  She has 32mm deck armor.

What f--king Japanese BB player specs for Secondaries in this current day and age in WoWS PVP?  What f--king Yamato, Izumo, Amagi, Fuso, Nagato player specs for Secondaries in the current age of WoWS PVP when German, Russian BBs are abound, especially with the Citadels IJN BBs have to protect?

 

You don't know what's going on with Battleships.

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34 minutes ago, Awe5ome said:

Republic (150)

 

Hum can I have whatever you're smoking or better, the République you're shooting ?

 

Because I wish mine has 150mm deck armour

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28 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Republique doesn't have "150" mm deck armor.  She has 32mm deck armor.

2A2EE846D323E372D5BA633FEDCF784952070337

Deck.png.bd55e10db5a345ba6a041c8f4fc97cd1.png

28 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

What f-king Japanese BB player specs for Secondaries in this current day and age in WoWS PVP? 

 

You literally just proved my point. Who would go for secondaries when the current game is all about sitting at the back of the map and sniping. Kurfurst isn't bad because it has 12 guns but the rest of the line has 8... that have dispersion that would make a shotgun blush. Germans should get a buff because the current gameplay is so stagnant and campy that pushing aggressively results in being F3-spammed by HE spamming BB's, CA's, CL's and DD's. So unless WG plan's to nerf the crap out of HE and reduce its effectiveness the easiest option is to give the Bayern, Gnei, Bis and F. Der Grobe better accuracy at range. 

Oh and no Kurfurst isn't doing well:

Kurfurst.thumb.png.fd6d32f7dee1b6838c75d6c39f346c1c.png

Edited by Awe5ome

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1 hour ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Except Main Battery isn't the strength where German BBs excel in, it's Citadel protection, deck armor, speed, secondaries.

 

Vanguard pays for it by anyone sneezing at her broadside and she instantly implodes.

 

People are NOT going to get a BB Line that is simultaneously blessed in speed, good deck armor, citadel protection, great secondaries, AND accurate guns to go with that.

 

But Germany....

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47 minutes ago, Awe5ome said:

2A2EE846D323E372D5BA633FEDCF784952070337

Deck.png.bd55e10db5a345ba6a041c8f4fc97cd1.png

You literally just proved my point. Who would go for secondaries when the current game is all about sitting at the back of the map and sniping. Kurfurst isn't bad because it has 12 guns but the rest of the line has 8... that have dispersion that would make a shotgun blush. Germans should get a buff because the current gameplay is so stagnant and campy that pushing aggressively results in being F3-spammed by HE spamming BB's, CA's, CL's and DD's. So unless WG plan's to nerf the crap out of HE and reduce its effectiveness the easiest option is to give the Bayern, Gnei, Bis and F. Der Grobe better accuracy at range. 

Oh and no Kurfurst isn't doing well:

Kurfurst.thumb.png.fd6d32f7dee1b6838c75d6c39f346c1c.png

That is the Citadel Deck Armor, deep inside the ship, not the one that is top side of the ship.  No wonder you don't know what's going on in this game.

THESE ARE DECK ARMOR EXAMPLES, THE ONES ALL THE HE SPAMMERS PAY ATTENTION TO:

0bztfax.jpg

mDQ9jsp.jpg

 

 

The German BB Line is designated the Brawler Line.  Their characteristics are centered on that.  You aren't getting good Main Battery accuracy on top of all the other benefits they got.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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1 hour ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Except Main Battery isn't the strength where German BBs excel in, it's Citadel protection, deck armor, speed, secondaries.

 

Vanguard pays for it by anyone sneezing at her broadside and she instantly implodes.

 

People are NOT going to get a BB Line that is simultaneously blessed in speed, good deck armor, citadel protection, great secondaries, AND accurate guns to go with that.

 

 

"Good Deck Armor" and "Citadel Protection" what specific threat are you referring? I can only assume you are referring to protection against other BB AP shells.

Because AP Dive Bombers "Absolutely Wreck" every German BB up to and including Tier 9 FDG.

Also the Yamato has 57mm central deck, Kremlin has 60mm deck, while GK has only 50mm deck. Why is that important? (you might ask)

Hindenburg has base HE pen of 51* mm so it can pen 50mm deck. 203 / 4 = 50.75  (actual HE pen is 50.75mm but it rounded up since the decimal is greater then .6)
IFHE Henry has 52mm of HE pen. 240 / 6  = 40.  40 x 1.3 = 52 

So which one of those 3 BBs do you think gets HE spammed to death the fastest in the current meta?

Edited by Sammy_Small
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2 hours ago, Salvo_Creative said:

If they get a Sigma buff I would say their BB's then become very well balanced vs the other ships in the game so sounds good. 

Yup. Sigma is needed

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The main problem is their firing angles - you can only use half of your guns most of the time unless you want to get chunked by everything with 203s or better. 

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12 hours ago, Awe5ome said:

Ohio.png.d68a9412c1f11ea116042427c93aa53c.pngMonty.png.505cc2273a48f90e0e9db85d50f43c2b.png

 

Monty: 296m with 1.9 sigma

Ohio: 274m with 2.0 sigma

Ohio is more accurate.

the max dispersion number in port is the max dispersion at that ship's maximum gun range. Come back when you find Montana's dispersion at 21.6km. Should be exactly the same.

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But German BBs have those awesome secondaries that do an extra 2k damage a match.......

I don't disagree they need something, I'd hate to just see something as generic as a sigma buff.  Secondaries, especially great secondaries just need to be more effective. 

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5 minutes ago, Ubarad said:

But German BBs have those awesome secondaries that do an extra 2k damage a match.......

I don't disagree they need something, I'd hate to just see something as generic as a sigma buff.  Secondaries, especially great secondaries just need to be more effective. 

We don't need more people getting free damage with no skill or effort required.

We just got rid of 0.8.6 AA. Let people breathe a bit... :)

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37 minutes ago, ElectroVeeDub said:

We don't need more people getting free damage with no skill or effort required.

We just got rid of 0.8.6 AA. Let people breathe a bit... :)

I don't necessarily disagree, but I hate to see a generic cheese fix for something that could be cool.  Make them like AA priority sector at least for a non-bot skill ceiling. 

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14 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Except Main Battery isn't the strength where German BBs excel in, it's Citadel protection, deck armor, speed, secondaries.

 

Vanguard pays for it by anyone sneezing at her broadside and she instantly implodes.

 

People are NOT going to get a BB Line that is simultaneously blessed in speed, good deck armor, citadel protection, great secondaries, AND accurate guns to go with that.

 

Amen to that

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They used to be OP, they could use a little love maybe, but I wouldn't say they are bad.  I still find them very fun. 

My preference is a manual secondaries buff, or buff their secondaries in general, since that is their flavor and all the do really is start a few fires and discourage dd rushes. 

You could also make them more fire resistant, or give them buffed damage control,  because he spam limits the viability of secondary builds.

Right now it's a shame that German bbs at high tier are generally survivability builds.

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I think the German BBs are fine.  I took my T7-10 out last week just for fun, no complaints.  BUT, the whole meta for BBs is changing IMO.  WG is moving to a more pew pew Flameslinger mentality.   Millenials (cash cow with mommy and daddy's money) have the attention span of a gnat with ADD.  They like to hide, not be shot at and pew pew pondering  BBs.     

Add to this crap show Submarines with homing torpedos (effin hilarious) where all you need to do is ping a BB 10km away and you're nearly guaranteed hits.   Yes,,, Premium BB will sell like hotcakes after these little turds hit the live servers. 

All games evolve.  Someone will not be happy with the evolution.  Sometimes it kills the game. 

 

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1 hour ago, SeaborneSumo said:

I think the German BBs are fine.  I took my T7-10 out last week just for fun, no complaints.  BUT, the whole meta for BBs is changing IMO.  WG is moving to a more pew pew Flameslinger mentality.   Millenials (cash cow with mommy and daddy's money) have the attention span of a gnat with ADD.  They like to hide, not be shot at and pew pew pondering  BBs.     

Add to this crap show Submarines with homing torpedos (effin hilarious) where all you need to do is ping a BB 10km away and you're nearly guaranteed hits.   Yes,,, Premium BB will sell like hotcakes after these little turds hit the live servers. 

All games evolve.  Someone will not be happy with the evolution.  Sometimes it kills the game. 

 

Not Really. Because in the current meta. Russian BBs have better sigma at close range than German BBs. That why German BBs need the sigma improvement

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