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Roberto577_One

First 4-point skill for IJN BB's?

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I have a 9-point captain on my Nagato, and was wondering whether I should get Fire Prevention or Concealment Expert first. I'm planning for this to be my Yamato captain eventually.

Edited by Roberto577_One

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Personally still think CE before FP is the way to go. 

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both equally viable. however, each one tweaks the gameplay a little. with CE you can get a little closer and disengage a little easier, with FP, you can deal with fire meta.  

I found the IJN BB line to be snipers. 

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Concealment Expert for the win.

If you're sniping and you want to disengage, you'll need it. Fire prevention is nice, but it wont help if they can see you more easily. Depends on how you want to play. Close? Or at range?

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I think you mean 10-point skill.

Anyway, getting close isn't really IJN BBs strong suit, but being a battleship means you will be on fire a lot, especially in the Yamato.  I'd go with FP before CE.

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11 minutes ago, Kuckoo said:

I think you mean 10-point skill.

First 10 points first tier 4... same diffrence. 

 

Regrinding my ships and playing with non-19 point captains has completely changed my opinion on this (fwiw it was Fuso that taught me this lesson). I strongly am in favor of FP. Personally, I play guns blazing. I may hold shots for a few seconds for a nice alpha strike, but especially at the start of the game, you miss 100% of the shots you dont take. Because of that, I dont value concealment as much as tanking damage, thus FP is more useful. 

 

Also, one of the most understated benifits of FP is the lower fire count. At first glance you think "I'm never burning more than 2-3 fires anyhow", but the reality is that FP limits the amount of fires started on your superstructure which is where most fires are set. Unless you are stopped or burning already, people are gonna try to aim for the center of mass to start fires, not trying to ping the tip of your bow or stern.

 

In shorter terms, FP combines the 2 places that are most likley to be set on fire into one, thus saving you quite a bit of HP

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Normally take concealment first so you can go dark and reposition or heal up. I didn't really need concealment on Fuso or Izumo but I was glad that I had it on Amagi. The next 4 points take a lot longer to grind so what you pick now is what you'll probably have until you're grinding on Izumo.

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27 minutes ago, pikohan said:

Personally still think CE before FP is the way to go. 

I agree since many of the IJN are technically Battle Cruisers, BCs converted into BBs, or simply fast BBs with lighter armor until you get to Yamato class. So having Concealment Expert is a must in order to disengage from engagements, to travel unseens, or get into ranges close enough to be more devastating with guns. ( I am a big fan of attacking under 16km and as close as I can when possible.)

Managing fires can be done with premium Consumables as long as Superintendent is the first 3 point skill you take, by knowing how to play the ships adequately well so you don’t get in over your head, and by taking signal flags that aid in HP healing and ones that reduce fire duration.

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I'd go with CE first.

IJN play at longer ranges, and thus are less likely to get focused with HE. CE allows you to re-position more easily and gives you a wider safety buffer when you go dark to drop contact. It also means your concealment penalty when on fire is smaller, so even if you take some hits you'll still have an easier time getting away from it.

 

Sidenote: A CE Yamato can get to within 13.5km of the enemy without being seen. Nobody's prepared for 9 46cm shells at that range.

Edited by KiyoSenkan
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Fire prevention.  FP is absolutely mandatory at high tiers with all the flamethrowers around. That said if the captain is going to stay on the Nagato rather than be moved up I would actually advocate for a full secondary build. She has lots of secondaries in a very effective layout that lets you angle and still fire a ton of them. With a secondary build they absolutely murder DDs, bully cruisers, and start a fair number of fires on BBs.

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CE is my choice for first 4 point skill on most ships(non-CV) in the game. Vision control (and knowledge of spotting mechanics and how to take advantage of them) is a key factor in the outcome of matches and helps separate good players from bad.

FP is not a bad skill for BBs but I'd save it for after CE.

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CE, then FP.

 

Stealth Build to control your engagements better because believe it or not, there are times when you want your BB to not be detected and getting focused down.

Full Stealth Builds also let you push up a bit more aggressively without getting spotted at your spawn point at the beginning of the game and getting shot at by everyone on the map, especially the higher in tier you go.

 

Detection ranges

With Camo only / With Camo + CE / With Camo + CE + CSM1 if applicable

Tier V Kongo 15.71km / 14.14km

Tier VI Fuso (worst detection BB in the game) 18.33km / 16.5km

Tier VII Nagato 16.59km / 14.93km

Tier VIII Amagi 16.76km / 15.09km / 13.58km

Tier IX Izumo16.67km / 15.01km / 13.51km

Tier X Yamato 17.46km / 15.71km / 14.14km

 

Also from WoWS Wiki:

Other Effects of Fire
Ships on fire have their surface detection range increased by 2.0 km and their aerial detection radius increased by 3.0 km. This is particularly noteworthy for destroyer captains.

=====

So if you got bad concealment, being on fire makes it even worse and harder to disengage if you are in a bind.  And when your DCP is on cooldown, you're going to feel every bit of it.

By all means, FP is fantastic for a BB, but sometimes the best defense is to not be seen so people stop shooting at you.  But if your detection range is 16km, 17km, 18km, you'll have trouble disengaging.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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The thing is in a BB you want to be shot at, one of your main jobs is to tank damage so your squishier ships don't. CE gets in the way of that, not to mention once the fight actually gets going it's 4 points that don't actually do anything.

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Concealment first.  Pagodas are pretty to look at but when you get spotted shortly after the game starts always leads to evil happening shortly thereafter.

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1 hour ago, Tekina_ said:

The thing is in a BB you want to be shot at, one of your main jobs is to tank damage so your squishier ships don't. CE gets in the way of that, not to mention once the fight actually gets going it's 4 points that don't actually do anything.

With bad concealment it means you have zero control over your engagements unless you sit back even further behind.

 

When you get in a situation where you're on focus fire, or having multiple fires and your DCP is on cooldown, or some situation where you NEED to disengage, safely put out the fires, repair, and then re-engage... That's hard to do when you got bad concealment, especially when the ship is on fire, which worsens your detection range by 2km.

 

The BB should be around to take shots, fine, but there are times the BB needs to break off, recover, repair, and fight again in better condition.  Hard to do that if you're spotted 17km, 18km, or 20km (Fuso) away because you're on fire.

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1 minute ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

With bad concealment it means you have zero control over your engagements unless you sit back even further behind.

 

When you get in a situation where you're on focus fire, or having multiple fires and your DCP is on cooldown, or some situation where you NEED to disengage, safely put out the fires, repair, and then re-engage... That's hard to do when you got bad concealment, especially when the ship is on fire, which worsens your detection range by 2km.

 

The BB should be around to take shots, fine, but there are times the BB needs to break off, recover, repair, and fight again in better condition.  Hard to do that if you're spotted 17km, 18km, or 20km (Fuso) away because you're on fire.

With a 14km~ concealment(Yamato) you are not controlling the engagement regardless unless every other smaller red ship on your flank is dead at which point you don't need to control it because odds are your team is steamrolling over the other. 15.7km vs 14km is a near meaningless distinction, especially now that CVs are more common.  If you need to break contact that's what islands and positioning are for. Even on Fuso, or rather especially on Fuso it's pointless, it only drops your concealment to 16km. At t6 if you are not within 16km of a target you and your team either just killed everything on that flank so you don't need to break contact anyway or you are massively out of position and likely useless to your team. Or the game just started I guess but in that last one you shouldn't need to heal anyway. 

It's a skill worth considering as a second 4 point skill but definitely not the first on most BBs.

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Really depends. The first 4 skill I got was Concealment Expert but that was before they nerfed. (The days when a Yamato could have 13.5 km concealment.) The reason why you would take CE is three fold. 

1. To minimize the damage when entering battle initally and increasing the chance of a hit by closing in. In a Yamato, you only have 9 guns with a 30 second reload (27 with Legendary Module). You have to make sure your shots land otherwise... You may get burned or shelled to death.

2. To allow for a quicker disengagement because reversing doesn’t work. It is better to disengage as quickly as possible to conserve HP. Yes, most battleships are meant to tank hits and act as shields for quishier ships. But that doesn’t mean you lose all of your HP. It is better to have a sustained presence for the entire match (especially with a ship like the Yamato) than to sink in a blaze of glory. Note that I said presence and not camp in the back of the map. If you do that, yoy might as well Fire Prevention because every cruiser will take the chance of burning a easily hittable target.

3. This is more of a niche reason but if you like to engage in ranges ranging from 13.5 to 16 kilometers, that 14 km concealment range makes all the difference and further increases the value of the first two points.

The other option is Fire Prevention, which was the next skill I took right after CE. It basically lowers fire chance and reduces the number of potential fires from 4 to 3 by combining the two “fire zones” on a ship’s middle (aka: where the superstructure is) into one. This is useful because the superstructure tends to the first thing that is focused down by HE spamming cruisers and destroyers. Combining it into one zone makes it so that you only have to deal with one fire instead of two and the bow and the stern of a ship tends to be harder to hit and it is easier to dodge shells. 

This is extremely useful if your playstyle is the brawling type but with Japanese Battleships, that kind of playstyle is iffy. With the Yamato it is possible to do so especially when bow in to anything but a Yamato. However, there are ships that do it better like Kurfurst and Kremlin. Although the Yamato when angled properly is a beast in defense, that octagonal citadel will be exploited and you will get citadelled if you angle your ship improperly. However, considering the current meta of the game, FP should be your priority if your perfered style means you tend to get spotted anyways. (Looking at you Smolensk) 

There is another alternative to FP, that being good use of the Damage Control Party but again, there is a catch: Japanese Control Party isn’t the best. It has a very short duration meaning that you could literally be on fire again a few seconds later. Combine that with a rather long cooldown and the utility of the DCP is decreased. Nor can the heal of Japanese Battleships compensate for fire. (Looking at your Conqueror.) So FP on a Yamato is a must. The real question is if you want CE or FP first. 

In summary, the first 4 point skill should be either Consealment Expert or Fire Prevention with CE being more useful for people who want to control when they engage and disengage (to an extent) and FP being more useful if you have an aggressive playstyle that gets you spotted anyways. In any case: There is NO SINGULAR skill you should take over the others. Of course there are other options but CE and FP are the popular choices. 

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I'd suggest CE as others have stated IJN BBs tend to stay at mid range and CE will allow you to disengage and heal easier but Fire Prevention is a MUST as your 14 point skill IMO. General IJN BB build:

PT (a lot of info from this)

EM (Yamato turrets slooowww)

SI (more heals!)

CE (stealth)

Fire Prevention (No Smolensk NOOO!)

BoS (less flood and fire yes please)

AR (faster pew pew)

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With the "fyrewyrms" (Cruisers with HE-spamming capabilities) being so prevalent in the game, I prefer Fire Prevention to limit the number of fires that can be set for the duration of the match.

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7 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

With the "fyrewyrms" (Cruisers with HE-spamming capabilities) being so prevalent in the game, I prefer Fire Prevention to limit the number of fires that can be set for the duration of the match.

With most of the IJN, specifically, if you're positioned correctly, these "firewyrms" will only ever start 2 fires anyway-- Bow and Pagoda. The height of Kongo, Nagato, and Yamato's pagodas can shield the aft half of the ship.

This isn't a perfect defense, but it does mitigate fire damage until you get to 14 points on the captain and take FP.

And with CE, you'll have that much easier of a time losing the cruiser in the first place. Or ambushing it when it's broadside.

 

How fast is your ROF when you're dead?

 

Then again I guess admitting that there are things you can do against rapid-fire HE ships isn't acceptable. Just like how there's obviously no counterplay to torpedoes.

Edited by KiyoSenkan
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If you don't use those 4 points it gives you an xp bonus, so as a HE thrower I wouldn't take fire prevention, or any skill that stops fires ok.

Edited by CriMiNaL__

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