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GRUMPASALTY

Torpedo Protection Hits Are Too Common!

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Everyone has an opinion. And this is mine on torpedo protection shell hits. Today I have experienced some of the worst luck of anyone on the server. But the primary issue for me is not the detonations, or anything else. I believe torpedo protection hits are stupid beyond measure, if two Battleships are at brawling range, 4.5 kms or less! Then torpedo protection hits should not be a thing, what this is indicating to the player involved is that the exterior torpedo protection bulge was thick enough to arm the shell on impact and cause the shell to either explode its ordnance prematurely or lose so much of its penetration capability that it has shattered on the inner armor belt.

Now this is theoretically possible but the issue for me is when a shell detonation occurs the conversion of explosives to rapidly expanding gas/smoke/flame takes time, less than a second but still time is involved and when the shell is traveling at roughly 4 or more times faster than the speed of sound a lot of distance can be covered within that under a second time. Now granted a shell after impact loses a lot of velocity, but I struggle to believe that it is enough to slow the shell to a point where it cannot penetrate the armor belt or in my case the upper armor belt behind it unless it is of substantial thickness. 

Torpedo Protection hits aren't a new thing in World of Warships they've been around for quite a while only counting as full pens with no damage, it was only recently that the shell hit indicator acknowledged these particular hits as Torpedo Protection hits, however I feel like they have become a lot more common than is necessary. Whenever I fire the guns of any ship I feel as if my shells are hitting the target at a falling angle that is so steep they tend to hit underneath where I aim, and so I compensate for this but regardless of how much I compensate they still happen a lot. Roughly 2 out of every 6 shells that I fire will be Torpedo Protection hits whilst the others will be a mix of overpenetrations and penetrations and it's just ruining my gameplay experience.

There are players out there who get away with making the stupidest plays because of this, an example Ranked match me in the Sinop vs a Colorado, the Colorado and I pass each other at 4.3 kms we both inflict minimal damage, I keep sailing straight on whilst the Colorado turns expecting a full brawl and beaches himself broadside in front of me, adjusting my guns to impact the citadel of the Colorado I fire a full salvo of AP into his side and am greeted with 2 Torpedo protection hits and 1 Penetration no citadel. 

It is this mechanic in particular that makes me fed up with the game, it shouldn't happen at such close ranges. . . I mean we've seen it before how these guns of sufficient caliber have a quite frankly ridiculous amount of penetration at close range something around the region of 480-500mm in some cases but where Torpedo Bulges are concerned it doesn't matter if you have over 1,000mm of penetration! If your shell arms in just 25mm it will screw your game entirely. 

This is basically pointing the finger at anyone who is deserves to be rewarded for good play and I'm sick to death of it! Now I don't care if you agree with me or not, but in my own opinion I think Torpedo Protection hits especially at point blank range are stupid!

Edited by Shinsengumi918
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You might want to reference the "How it works" world of warships mechanics tutorial video again. Having a "torpedo protection hit" only means that your shell detonated in the torpedo bulge, instead of the bulge primed your shell. More likely your shell shattered or bounced off of the main belt beneath and simply detonated afterward. https://youtu.be/yQcutrneBJQ

USS Colorado's citadel is not only well protected but also somewhat below the waterline, she is a ferocious brawler in her own right by game design.
My guess is said Colorado isn't really "broadside" as much as "not that angled", in which case instead of aiming where the armor is the thickest, try to aim under the turrets near the bow and stern, where the hull shape obliques and presents a much flatter point of entry, as well as enabling your shells to overmatch the bow and stern platings and penetrate the fore and aft bulkheads.

 

Edited by The_first_harbinger

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34 minutes ago, The_first_harbinger said:

My guess is said Colorado isn't really "broadside" as much as "not that angled", in which case instead of aiming where the armor is the thickest, try to aim under the turrets near the bow and stern, where the hull shape obliques and presents a much flatter point of entry, as well as enabling your shells to overmatch the bow and stern platings and penetrate the fore and aft bulkheads.

 

I more or less did exactly that.

shot-19.09.23_14.53.43-0547.jpg

Edited by GRUMPASALTY

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7 minutes ago, GRUMPASALTY said:

I more or less did exactly that.

shot-19.09.23_14.53.43-0547.jpg

Your screenshot only appears to show secondary tracers, as Sinop's got better dispersion than most Destroyers at that range. But make no mistake, Sinop guns like to troll too.

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The Colorado is angled quite a bit, so you could expect some degree of ricochet, especially for any shots that hit the front half of the ship.  The shells might have penetrated the torpedo protection at that angle, but probably couldn't penetrate the main body of the ship.

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38 minutes ago, Murcc said:

The Colorado is angled quite a bit, so you could expect some degree of ricochet, especially for any shots that hit the front half of the ship.  The shells might have penetrated the torpedo protection at that angle, but probably couldn't penetrate the main body of the ship.

I mean when you look at the relative angles we're pretty much flat on to each other, not perfectly broadside but it's definitely enough exposed to grant a citadel or two. I've done it before, long before they updated the shell hit indicators.

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58 minutes ago, Crokodone said:

Your screenshot only appears to show secondary tracers, as Sinop's got better dispersion than most Destroyers at that range. But make no mistake, Sinop guns like to troll too.

There is always a maximum dispersion value in the game that limits how far apart your shells can spread, its RNG that determines how far apart within that maximum limit your shells spread for the shot fired at that moment. And well suffice to say my experiences with RNG have been less than favorable. 

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38 minutes ago, GRUMPASALTY said:

RNG have been less than favorable

Uour RNG sounds exactly like mine. Except my rng trolls me when I'm in a Cleveland.

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OP has a point albeit perhaps not properly presented in the case of that BB. 

 

However, when you look at YAMATO's shells consistently being stopped by 'torpedo bulges' you do have to question the thing. 

For one, Yamato AP has so much penetration power that it should actually be helping the shell arm inside the target after smashing through the torpedo bulge (without arming) and through the citadel armor itself. 

 

You also have the oddity of ships like Smolensk taking a full salvo of Yamato AP in the broadside waterline... and most shells being stopped by said torpedo bulge. Zero damage despite the shell allegedly 'arming' inside the torpedo bulge. 

Common sense would tell you that IF the shells were to arm/detonate inside the torpedo bulge and right outside the citadel armor of 70mm then the explosion would inflict as much damage as if an HE shell had struck it. But it doesn't. It does zero damage. 

 

So yes, something is very screwy with the torpedo bulges when it comes to shells that should not be arming inside it, which should be punching through it and to boot, IF they armed inside, should be smashing the hull armor at that location with high damage. Yamato is a perfect case study for this glitch. 

 

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I think in the vast majority of cases, torpedo bulge hits are bounces.

The shells will overmatch the torpedo protection because it's so thin, the they'll either autobounce off the main belt because it's too angled, or shatter, because BB belts are actually really thick.  Other complications may include the shells that hit water immediately before hitting the bulge, which will strip it of a ton of pen.

5 hours ago, GRUMPASALTY said:

I more or less did exactly that.

shot-19.09.23_14.53.43-0547.jpg

For this particular situation, it really depend on where you hit the Colorado's belt. What part of the ship did you aim at?  Colorado has 343mm belt, and angling can increase that up to 514 max.  At 4km, Sinop has ~580mm pen, so a non-pen to happen the impact must have been close to or above 60 degrees.  Assuming your camera is indeed over the turret that fired, if you aimed under Colorado's front turrets your going to hit the belt at an autobounce angle.  It's really easy to underestimate how much a BB is angled, and you have to remember ship citadels are generally ovals as well.  Most people favor excessive leading by habit however, and at short ranges parallax is a HUGE problem with judging angle correctly.

 

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7 hours ago, GRUMPASALTY said:


Now this is theoretically possible but the issue for me is when a shell detonation occurs the conversion of explosives to rapidly expanding gas/smoke/flame takes time, less than a second but still time is involved and when the shell is traveling at roughly 4 or more times faster than the speed of sound a lot of distance can be covered within that under a second time.

Please tell me you are exaggerating, and don't actually believe that statement I bolded.

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6 hours ago, GRUMPASALTY said:

I mean when you look at the relative angles we're pretty much flat on to each other

8Foaz9k.png

That is NOT flat on. According to my camera protractor, you're hitting him at 40 degrees (that is, 50 degrees off perpendicular).

Edited by Edgecase
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2 hours ago, Kenjister said:

ship citadels are generally ovals as well.

I think you're on the right track here-- but this specific statement is incorrect for every ship except Yamato/Musashi.

You can check this in the armor viewer. Most ship citadels are rectangular. Only the Yamato sisters have beveled sides to create an oval shape (for some reason).

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40 minutes ago, KiyoSenkan said:

I think you're on the right track here-- but this specific statement is incorrect for every ship except Yamato/Musashi.

You can check this in the armor viewer. Most ship citadels are rectangular. Only the Yamato sisters have beveled sides to create an oval shape (for some reason).

Take a look at the armor viewer.  I'm not talking about Yamato class levels of angle, but most ships do in fact have curved citadel belts.

ColoradoCitadel.thumb.png.1206b964a56e896047c399f9ddbb041e.png

 

This is Colorado.  I'm a bit bummed I couldn't get a perfectly vertical shot, but as you can see the citadel more or less mimics the shape of the ship except much more extreme.  And since the ship resembles an oval so does the citadel.  In particular, if you're shooting at the front turrets from BEHIND the ship, you're basically adding 20-30 degrees to whatever angle you pen the outer belt at.  If you're shooting at the rear turrets from in front of the ship, it will be similar but less extreme.

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59 minutes ago, Edgecase said:

8Foaz9k.png

That is NOT flat on. According to my camera protractor, you're hitting him at 40 degrees (that is, 50 degrees off perpendicular).

Related image

+1

 

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10 hours ago, GRUMPASALTY said:

Everyone has an opinion. And this is mine on torpedo protection shell hits. Today I have experienced some of the worst luck of anyone on the server. But the primary issue for me is not the detonations, or anything else. I believe torpedo protection hits are stupid beyond measure, if two Battleships are at brawling range, 4.5 kms or less! Then torpedo protection hits should not be a thing, what this is indicating to the player involved is that the exterior torpedo protection bulge was thick enough to arm the shell on impact and cause the shell to either explode its ordnance prematurely or lose so much of its penetration capability that it has shattered on the inner armor belt.

Now this is theoretically possible but the issue for me is when a shell detonation occurs the conversion of explosives to rapidly expanding gas/smoke/flame takes time, less than a second but still time is involved and when the shell is traveling at roughly 4 or more times faster than the speed of sound a lot of distance can be covered within that under a second time. Now granted a shell after impact loses a lot of velocity, but I struggle to believe that it is enough to slow the shell to a point where it cannot penetrate the armor belt or in my case the upper armor belt behind it unless it is of substantial thickness. 

Torpedo Protection hits aren't a new thing in World of Warships they've been around for quite a while only counting as full pens with no damage, it was only recently that the shell hit indicator acknowledged these particular hits as Torpedo Protection hits, however I feel like they have become a lot more common than is necessary. Whenever I fire the guns of any ship I feel as if my shells are hitting the target at a falling angle that is so steep they tend to hit underneath where I aim, and so I compensate for this but regardless of how much I compensate they still happen a lot. Roughly 2 out of every 6 shells that I fire will be Torpedo Protection hits whilst the others will be a mix of overpenetrations and penetrations and it's just ruining my gameplay experience.

There are players out there who get away with making the stupidest plays because of this, an example Ranked match me in the Sinop vs a Colorado, the Colorado and I pass each other at 4.3 kms we both inflict minimal damage, I keep sailing straight on whilst the Colorado turns expecting a full brawl and beaches himself broadside in front of me, adjusting my guns to impact the citadel of the Colorado I fire a full salvo of AP into his side and am greeted with 2 Torpedo protection hits and 1 Penetration no citadel. 

It is this mechanic in particular that makes me fed up with the game, it shouldn't happen at such close ranges. . . I mean we've seen it before how these guns of sufficient caliber have a quite frankly ridiculous amount of penetration at close range something around the region of 480-500mm in some cases but where Torpedo Bulges are concerned it doesn't matter if you have over 1,000mm of penetration! If your shell arms in just 25mm it will screw your game entirely. 

This is basically pointing the finger at anyone who is deserves to be rewarded for good play and I'm sick to death of it! Now I don't care if you agree with me or not, but in my own opinion I think Torpedo Protection hits especially at point blank range are stupid!

I'm not sure what you are asking. It was bad luck. Sometimes your shell hits something unexpected at an unfortunate angle. It happens. In the real world if the AP shell penetrates the bulge, but due to the penetration angle it happens to de-cap the AP shell, it won't go through the armor behind it. It happens. That isn't the bulge's purpose but it happened. I've seen bombs hit the ship's conning tower and bounce off. The tower isn't intended as citadel roof protection but it happened. 

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On 9/24/2019 at 5:40 AM, Kenjister said:

I think in the vast majority of cases, torpedo bulge hits are bounces.

The shells will overmatch the torpedo protection because it's so thin, the they'll either autobounce off the main belt because it's too angled, or shatter, because BB belts are actually really thick.  Other complications may include the shells that hit water immediately before hitting the bulge, which will strip it of a ton of pen.

For this particular situation, it really depend on where you hit the Colorado's belt. What part of the ship did you aim at?  Colorado has 343mm belt, and angling can increase that up to 514 max.  At 4km, Sinop has ~580mm pen, so a non-pen to happen the impact must have been close to or above 60 degrees.  Assuming your camera is indeed over the turret that fired, if you aimed under Colorado's front turrets your going to hit the belt at an autobounce angle.  It's really easy to underestimate how much a BB is angled, and you have to remember ship citadels are generally ovals as well.  Most people favor excessive leading by habit however, and at short ranges parallax is a HUGE problem with judging angle correctly.

 

I took the screenshot holding the reticle directly where I aimed. And given that the Colorado is reversing off the island I figured his ship would've been in a position where I could at least score some full pens if I hit a lightly armored part of the ship, but instead I didn't and the torpedo bulge ate the shells which at that range they shouldn't do at all.

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On 9/24/2019 at 9:21 AM, Tzarevitch said:

I'm not sure what you are asking. It was bad luck. Sometimes your shell hits something unexpected at an unfortunate angle. It happens. In the real world if the AP shell penetrates the bulge, but due to the penetration angle it happens to de-cap the AP shell, it won't go through the armor behind it. It happens. That isn't the bulge's purpose but it happened. I've seen bombs hit the ship's conning tower and bounce off. The tower isn't intended as citadel roof protection but it happened. 

What I'm saying is it happens too often, I know that it happens! But when you play for a week assuming you play 3 matches a day or more and your shell count tells you that your torpedo protection hits far exceed the number of overpenetrations and penetrations for the entire week something is off. 

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On 9/24/2019 at 7:30 AM, Edgecase said:

8Foaz9k.png

That is NOT flat on. According to my camera protractor, you're hitting him at 40 degrees (that is, 50 degrees off perpendicular).

So why then, is it that other players presented with the exact same circumstances as this manage to pull off shots that seem to hit the citadel of the enemy ship regardless of its angle? Am I just that unlucky? 

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I think everyone is missing the point here, all I'm trying to say is torpedo protection hits happen far too often! If I played for a week, 5 battles a day for 7 days, I could expect that a majority of my shells over 1,500 shots will be torpedo protection hits. And like a member said above me this also happens to the Yamato which is known for having very high penetration, hell it even happens with the Kremlin and it's sci-fi shells that fly 800 m/s it's ridiculous and quite stupid.

And the reason I'm complaining about it is because some players get away with the absolute worst plays such as sailing broadside within the kill zone of a very accurate BB, because their torpedo protection bulge regardless of the ship itself being flat broadside in some cases was just thick enough to arm the shell but if that's the case and the shell arms before it penetrates through the armor belt wouldn't it be causing damage of some sort!? 

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4 hours ago, GRUMPASALTY said:

If I played for a week, 5 battles a day for 7 days, I could expect that a majority of my shells over 1,500 shots will be torpedo protection hits. And like a member said above me this also happens to the Yamato which is known for having very high penetration, hell it even happens with the Kremlin and it's sci-fi shells that fly 800 m/s it's ridiculous and quite stupid.

I really don't want to be that guy, but have you considered your your expectations are off a bit and you're taking shots at too steep an angle because of it?  I ask that because of this:

4 hours ago, GRUMPASALTY said:

So why then, is it that other players presented with the exact same circumstances as this manage to pull off shots that seem to hit the citadel of the enemy ship regardless of its angle? Am I just that unlucky?

In the situation you presented, I would not have expected a citadel, it would be more of a bonus outcome.  The area that a citadel pen could be scored is very small and can be denied by RNG.  Aim slightly off and bounces would also be common especially with t7 guns.  However, at that angle is pretty easy to get shells to arm on the plating of the enemy ship.  Big damage doesn't always equal citadels.  

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So, does this mean we should stop showing the Torpedo Protection hits, and make them back to zero damage pens again?

I do suspect that some of these would have been bounces previously as well, but they had enough energy to hit the torp bulge, but no further.

 

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15 hours ago, Kenjister said:

I really don't want to be that guy, but have you considered your your expectations are off a bit and you're taking shots at too steep an angle because of it?  I ask that because of this:

In the situation you presented, I would not have expected a citadel, it would be more of a bonus outcome.  The area that a citadel pen could be scored is very small and can be denied by RNG.  Aim slightly off and bounces would also be common especially with t7 guns.  However, at that angle is pretty easy to get shells to arm on the plating of the enemy ship.  Big damage doesn't always equal citadels.  

Well given that ships in this game can turn on a dime like a sports car and slow down or speed up just as fast I wouldn't be surprised if that is what is happening. And well, I never said "I should score citadels with every shot I fire" because that is frankly a stupid thing to say, now this conversation all stemmed from me saying "Torpedo Protection Hits occur too frequently" but everyone has lost their minds and completely changed the subject, I mean if a 460mm shell impacts a 26mm plate should it retain enough penetration to pass through the armored plating behind it? Same goes for 406mm guns, at close range a shell will retain a higher velocity than at it's maximum range, and so if a shell of 406mm is fired at close range should it not have the ability to damage a target even in the slightest? 

I believe that if a 406mm shell is armed by the torpedo protection plating then it should cause damage equal to an overpenetration. Because regardless of if the shell hit the torpedo bulge if it arms and explodes in a confined space you are causing damage! And that's what I'm mad about, I know this isn't a simulator but we could at least make it so players of these particular type of ship don't feel as if their efforts are not being rewarded, even if it is minimal damage just something would be nice! Because I don't like firing my guns, hitting my target, dealing no damage and having to wait 30 seconds or more only for it to happen again.

That is all I am saying, is that not a fair argument? 

Edited by GRUMPASALTY

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23 minutes ago, GRUMPASALTY said:

And that's what I'm mad about, I know this isn't a simulator but we could at least make it so players of these particular type of ship don't feel as if their efforts are not being rewarded, even if it is minimal damage just something would be nice! Because I don't like firing my guns, hitting my target, dealing no damage and having to wait 30 seconds or more only for it to happen again.

This was tested before the change that added the ribbon for torpedo protection hits.  They tried giving overpens for them, and it was way too much. Certain BBs, especially were just too easy to troll with them.  So, they at least gave you a ribbon so you know what happened, and it's no longer a zero damage pen that you have no idea what happened with.

So, what you just asked for was tested on PTS, and rejected several months ago.

Edited by agm114r

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