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vorlonagent

Alternate Submarine Game Mechanic System

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After watching Flamu's video on submarine gameplay, I decided that the system WG is proposing was poor.   A big issue I see is that the sub gets a free shot at whatever ship it likes and then has to survive having made the shot.  The power and wire-guided nature of sub torpedoes in the hands of a skilled player means the sub gets to sucker-punch a ship of the sub's choice.  It tends to suck being the ship that is sucker-punched since there is little to no counterplay against an enemy the ship isn't aware is even there.  The interaction of planes vs AA has a similar problem.  Dealing with a sub becomes a distracting minigame that only destroyers get to play.  No destroyer present and I'm not sure there is much other ships can do to effectively take down a sub beyond trying to follow it and wait for it to surface..

ideally subs should be integrated into the existing WOWS Destroyer + Cruiser + Battleship gameplay paradigm as much as possible rather than being their own weird thing.  This proposal is an attempt at that.

Note that this is a very rough draft.  I could have left important things out, missed important interactions or accidentally duplicated suggestions made by other players.  This is one possible alternative to what I think will be a really awful addition to the game.  Needless to say I give Wargaming exclusive permanent irrevocable worldwide rights to use this proposal in part or whole without any compensation to me beyond appropriate design credit if elements of this document are used.  My reward is a better game to play.
 

Submarines

Class Features

Submarine gameplay reverts to that found in WoWs’ 2018 Haloween event.  Submarines have a short supply of air that they can renew, torpedoes use narrow unguided spreads etc.

In place of armor Submarines debuff dispersion of incoming shells, bombs, rockets,  etc.  This debuff is expected to increase with Tier.  Submarines have this dispersion debuff at all depths. 

As with current design, submarines retain their surface speed while submerged.

Air Supply

Submarines have a supply of “air” that is expended while submerged, recharged while surfaced.  Low-Tier subs can only recharge air while surfaced.  Higher-Tier subs are assumed to have a snorkel of some kind that first slows then stops air loss at periscope depth progressing to a slow recharge while running at periscope depth. 

No submarine can recharge air or reduce air loss at any depth below periscope depth.

Running out of air forces the submarine to surface.

Running on the surface

A surfaced submarine is treated in all ways like any other surface ship.  The entire hull can be hit by enemy fire.   Its debuff to incoming fire is active however.  The thinness of its armor makes it prone to AP overpens which do not affect its ability to dive or surface.  

A submarine on the surface recharges air at the fastest possible rate available to the sub.

A surfaced sub may launch torpedoes

If the submarine has a deck gun, it functions as a secondary battery and gives a mild amount of AA defense.

A surfaced submarine is treated like a destroyer for purposes of deep-water torpedoes.

A surfaced sub can be detected by both radar and Hydroacoustic Search.

A submarine must be surfaced in order to capture an objective.  Submerging to periscope depth or deeper loses all progress.

A submarine has surface and air detection ranges that are usually smaller than a destroyer’s at the same tier.

Periscope Depth

A submarine has a periscope depth, which shields most of the ship from most AP and HE fire but is shallow enough to allow the conning tower (superstructure) to still be hit by enemy fire.  The tower is expected to become damage-saturated, which will reduce damage taken and naturally extend a sub’s ability to withstand enemy fire at this depth.  For game balance, a sub's running depth can be tuned to allow or deny HE splash damage to other areas of the ship.  The conning tower should also still be capable of being hit by torpedoes.  Note that the sub has its debuff to enemy dispersion for additional defense combined with the conning tower being a small target.

Low-Tier subs expend air at periscope depth but as Tier progresses are fitted with snorkels that reduce air loss and eventually regenerate air, but less efficiently than when running on the surface.  If the sub runs out of air it will be forced to the surface.

Subs no longer show up on Radar but will still be found with Hydroacoustic Search.  Detectability by radar could be tuned for game balance.

For game balance, the hull of a submarine at periscope depth could be treated as a cruiser or a battleship for purposes of deep-water torpedoes.  It could also be considered to be running too deep for them.  Deep-Water torpedoes should still be able to hit a sub’s conning tower.

A submarine at periscope depth may launch torpedoes.

The submarine’s deck gun does not fire.

A submarine running at periscope depth may only be proximity spotted.  Game balance may dictate small surface and air spotting ranges.

Fully Submerged

A submerged sub is immune to most forms of enemy fire and torpedoes.  Exception: depth charges.  It also expends air and will be forced to the surface if air runs out.  Submarines have at least one “fully submerged” depth level with higher Tiers gaining access to more levels.

A submerged sub cannot launch torpedoes or use its deck gun

A submerged sub is not detectable by radar but can still be detected by Hydroacoustic Search.

Fully submerged subs have no surface or air detection radius.

Launching Torpedoes

When a submarine fires a torpedo, it is treated as if it were a surface ship having fired main battery guns.  The sub’s spotting range becomes 2/3 its max torpedo range.  The spotting distance can and should be varied by game balance, torpedo, nation and tier.

A sub may launch torpedoes at surface or periscope depth.  They function as normal torpedoes in all ways.  Torpedo tubes recharge relatively quickly at all tiers and fire individual torpedoes.

Submarines do not normally launch deep-water torpedoes but there might be a nation or premium ship that does.

Fighting Submarines

Surface ships may engage surfaced submarines normally but at a dispersion penalty built into the sub’s hull. 

Surface ships may engage a submarine at periscope depth.  The only part of the sub that will always be able to receive damage is the conning tower/superstructure.  Note that the conning tower is small and there is a dispersion penalty for firing at a sub.

Based on game balance, a sub’s periscope depth may be set such that other parts of the ship besides the conning tower could be within the blast cube of some HE shells.  It could also be set deeper to reduce damage to the conning tower.

Depth Charges

Depth charges are a new weapons system under player control that is on almost all Destroyers and some other ships.  Depth charges are launched a short distance to the right or left of the ship or can be dropped in a line behind.   Based on Tier and class, a ship will drop between 1 and 4 depth charges then go into a cooldown that varies by Tier and nation.

A sub that is within the blast cube of a depth charge when it explodes takes damage based on how close to the blast it is.

Depth charges fall through water at a rate that varies with nation and Tier.

Players can set all depth charges for a single depth (periscope depth down to Depth 1+ or let the depth for each charge be random.  Default is random depth.  Lower-Tier ships are limited in the depth levels they can drop depth charges to.  This increases with the Tier of the ship.  Note that this is not always a good thing.  A Destroyer which has depth charges that can drop to depth 3 hunting a sub that can only dive to depth 2, could make a mistake and drop a line of depth charges to Depth 3 even though the sub could not dive that deep.  RNG could set some random depth charges for Depth 3 as well.

For game balance reasons, a depth charge can only damage submarines.

To aid in dropping depth charges accurately, the interface will display an aiming marker similar to that for aiming torpedoes that takes into account the time a depth charge would need to sink to the level of the sub, its speed, etc. 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, vorlonagent said:

Submarine gameplay reverts to that found in WoWs’ 2018 Haloween event.

You have GOT to be kidding; is this some sort of troll post?

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4 hours ago, vorlonagent said:

No destroyer present and I'm not sure there is much other ships can do to effectively take down a sub

You obviously missed the fuso 1 shotting  2 different subs

4 hours ago, vorlonagent said:

I decided that the system WG is proposing was poor

You can and you may, so have you applied for the testing?

 

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12 hours ago, vorlonagent said:

It tends to suck being the ship that is sucker-punched since there is little to no counterplay against an enemy the ship isn't aware is even there.

I don't understand, are you petitioning to change submarines, remove destroyers, or both?  You seem to be saying that it's unfair that a submarine could use stealth to make a sneak attack, then need to relocate to escape reprisal, which is currently the bread and butter of several destroyer lines in the game, and they've even been given huge damage resistances to make sure that they have a good chance of escaping if they do mess up and get spotted.  Honestly I think submarines are a way better fit for the invisible torpedo boat a lot of DD captains think their ship should be.

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I think he's forgetting the massive impact that CV's will have on subs. Infact... CV's might turn out to be better sub hunters than DD's...

And he's forgetting that when a sub pings a target it's  pretty much announced to the entire map. A ping sent out at the wrong time could be a death sentence.

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21 minutes ago, ElectroVeeDub said:

I think he's forgetting the massive impact that CV's will have on subs. Infact... CV's might turn out to be better sub hunters than DD's...

I've said this too.  I think part of the reason WG is pushing to increase the CV population is because they are depending on CVs as a significant counter to subs. 

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9 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

I've said this too.  I think part of the reason WG is pushing to increase the CV population is because they are depending on CVs as a significant counter to subs. 

Heh.... you'd be amazed how many people on this forum think they're going "CV hunting" when subs come out... :)

I keep telling them "Whatever you do, don't ping or you're dead... you won't make it past the capture points. If a DD, BB, or CL can't do it, neither can a sub. You have 4 mins of air and that CV is 5kts faster than you... and you gotta evade 11 other ships and a squadron conducting sweeps..."

Goes in one ear, straight out the other. Peoples inability to foresee obvious outcomes never ceases to amaze me. I predict subs will be camping right below AA cruisers trying to spit out torps. They leave the blob... the CV kills them.

I saw video footage of RN level bombers owning a sub. It aint pretty :)

Edited by ElectroVeeDub
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This is for all the guys who think they're going CV hunting in a sub. You're going to have wake up and realize that a subs role is anti-BB and CA/CL. Carriers will be a very hard target. :)

 

"As a carrier... that's the only thing I wanna do! I just wanna catch subs, and ruin their lives now! Even more than DD's... !! " - Flambass

 

And all the guys who bought Ark Royal and think the level bombers are weak? You can feel better now. I think WG had a grand plan for those level bombers. It looks like Royal Navy CV's are the authority on  ASW . You could see one squadron kill a sub in 3 strikes. It's possible to get a Devastating Strike and kill in one pass...

Check out this video. Watch at least 5 mins into it for some serious enlightenment concerning how ASW and CV's will work. :)

 

 

 

Edited by ElectroVeeDub
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On 9/22/2019 at 10:29 PM, CriMiNaL__ said:

You obviously missed the fuso 1 shotting  2 different subs

You can and you may, so have you applied for the testing?

 

Sure massive damage can be done to subs on the surface.  Which leaves submerged and periscope depth where the sub has control and initiative.  Assuming a competent player on their first attack run, he chooses a ship to wreck, wrecks it, and then any survivors get to go after the sub.  That gameplay model should be obvious along with why it''s bad gameplay.  How much are you going to enjoy being one-shotted by a sub?

I am not a part of testing.   The system WG wants to roll out is fundamentally broken.  If they want to scrap it for something that is more in line with their core gameplay rather than further disrupts it, I might make a different decision.

The only thing I could do was suggest an alternative that does what I want, and doesn't include wire-guided super torpedoes.

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21 hours ago, FirestormMk3 said:

I don't understand, are you petitioning to change submarines, remove destroyers, or both?  You seem to be saying that it's unfair that a submarine could use stealth to make a sneak attack, then need to relocate to escape reprisal, which is currently the bread and butter of several destroyer lines in the game, and they've even been given huge damage resistances to make sure that they have a good chance of escaping if they do mess up and get spotted.  Honestly I think submarines are a way better fit for the invisible torpedo boat a lot of DD captains think their ship should be.

I don'r remember suggesting any changes to destroyers.   In fact, I'd rather submarines worked a bit more like destroyers with heightened stealth mechanics.  I'm pretty sure that's what I proposed.  

With WG's system, core sub gameplay is one-shotting (or nearly so) a target of their choice and then trying to deal with the consequences, which isn't exactly fun for the one-shotted player.  There are times when a DD can do this, but it usually requires assistance from their target (sailing in a predictable straight line). Wire-guided torpedoes ignore target skill.  They can hit a ship doing its due diligence (changing course and speed) just as easily as one who isn't.

Now consider a CV + Sub division where CV planes distract a sub target, making them easy prey or keep destroyers away from the circle of death that appears after the sub pings.

Edited by vorlonagent

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25 minutes ago, vorlonagent said:

The only thing I could do was suggest an alternative that does what I want,

Therein lies to problem with everything you have said, and they can be 1 shotted at periscope depth.

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2 minutes ago, CriMiNaL__ said:

Therein lies to problem with everything you have said, and they can be 1 shotted at periscope depth.

Assuming first attack run, the surface ship won't know the sub is there until the sub pings.  If it isn't lucky enough to have turrets pointing the right way, the sub will dive before a shot can be lined up.  There is nothing a surface ship could do at that point until the sub shows itself.  If the ship is the sub's target there will be wire-guided torps on the way that will remove most or all the ship's health that the ship can't do anything about.

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On 9/22/2019 at 9:09 PM, vorlonagent said:

The thinness of its armor makes it prone to AP overpens which do not affect its ability to dive or surface. 

You are joking, yes?   So a submarine with a rather large hole all the way through it can still submerge?  Well, yeah, once, but it's never coming up again.

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15 minutes ago, vorlonagent said:

Assuming first attack run, the surface ship won't know the sub is there until the sub pings.  If it isn't lucky enough to have turrets pointing the right way, the sub will dive before a shot can be lined up.  There is nothing a surface ship could do at that point until the sub shows itself.  If the ship is the sub's target there will be wire-guided torps on the way that will remove most or all the ship's health that the ship can't do anything about.

Isn't this the same as a DD tho, I mean take the Asashio all you get is .9km of warning vs 1.7 fair enough the homing torps can by pass the torp protection, but only if you can get a double ping, and the DD wont show their position on the mini map, unless spotted

I would wait for the next phase of testing to see how things might change.

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21 hours ago, ElectroVeeDub said:

Carriers will be a very hard target. :)

Well of course they are! The whole Rework concept was built around effective invulnerablility to preclude unicum CV v. scrub CV roflstomps like the old days, and I say that as an Enterprise and Ark Royal owner. Personally, I miss the carrier duels even if I wasn't particularly good at it.

This whole sub thing as being implemented is just another silly "Ohh, shiny!" from the marketing department.

Edited by So_lt_Goes
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On 9/22/2019 at 10:09 PM, vorlonagent said:

After watching Flamu's video on submarine gameplay, I decided that the system WG is proposing was poor.   A big issue I see is that the sub gets a free shot at whatever ship it likes and then has to survive having made the shot.  The power and wire-guided nature of sub torpedoes in the hands of a skilled player means the sub gets to sucker-punch a ship of the sub's choice.  It tends to suck being the ship that is sucker-punched since there is little to no counterplay against an enemy the ship isn't aware is even there.  The interaction of planes vs AA has a similar problem.  Dealing with a sub becomes a distracting minigame that only destroyers get to play.  No destroyer present and I'm not sure there is much other ships can do to effectively take down a sub beyond trying to follow it and wait for it to surface..

ideally subs should be integrated into the existing WOWS Destroyer + Cruiser + Battleship gameplay paradigm as much as possible rather than being their own weird thing.  This proposal is an attempt at that.

Note that this is a very rough draft.  I could have left important things out, missed important interactions or accidentally duplicated suggestions made by other players.  This is one possible alternative to what I think will be a really awful addition to the game.  Needless to say I give Wargaming exclusive permanent irrevocable worldwide rights to use this proposal in part or whole without any compensation to me beyond appropriate design credit if elements of this document are used.  My reward is a better game to play.
 

Submarines

Class Features

Submarine gameplay reverts to that found in WoWs’ 2018 Haloween event.  Submarines have a short supply of air that they can renew, torpedoes use narrow unguided spreads etc.

In place of armor Submarines debuff dispersion of incoming shells, bombs, rockets,  etc.  This debuff is expected to increase with Tier.  Submarines have this dispersion debuff at all depths. 

As with current design, submarines retain their surface speed while submerged.

Air Supply

Submarines have a supply of “air” that is expended while submerged, recharged while surfaced.  Low-Tier subs can only recharge air while surfaced.  Higher-Tier subs are assumed to have a snorkel of some kind that first slows then stops air loss at periscope depth progressing to a slow recharge while running at periscope depth. 

No submarine can recharge air or reduce air loss at any depth below periscope depth.

Running out of air forces the submarine to surface.

Running on the surface

A surfaced submarine is treated in all ways like any other surface ship.  The entire hull can be hit by enemy fire.   Its debuff to incoming fire is active however.  The thinness of its armor makes it prone to AP overpens which do not affect its ability to dive or surface.  

A submarine on the surface recharges air at the fastest possible rate available to the sub.

A surfaced sub may launch torpedoes

If the submarine has a deck gun, it functions as a secondary battery and gives a mild amount of AA defense.

A surfaced submarine is treated like a destroyer for purposes of deep-water torpedoes.

A surfaced sub can be detected by both radar and Hydroacoustic Search.

A submarine must be surfaced in order to capture an objective.  Submerging to periscope depth or deeper loses all progress.

A submarine has surface and air detection ranges that are usually smaller than a destroyer’s at the same tier.

Periscope Depth

A submarine has a periscope depth, which shields most of the ship from most AP and HE fire but is shallow enough to allow the conning tower (superstructure) to still be hit by enemy fire.  The tower is expected to become damage-saturated, which will reduce damage taken and naturally extend a sub’s ability to withstand enemy fire at this depth.  For game balance, a sub's running depth can be tuned to allow or deny HE splash damage to other areas of the ship.  The conning tower should also still be capable of being hit by torpedoes.  Note that the sub has its debuff to enemy dispersion for additional defense combined with the conning tower being a small target.

Low-Tier subs expend air at periscope depth but as Tier progresses are fitted with snorkels that reduce air loss and eventually regenerate air, but less efficiently than when running on the surface.  If the sub runs out of air it will be forced to the surface.

Subs no longer show up on Radar but will still be found with Hydroacoustic Search.  Detectability by radar could be tuned for game balance.

For game balance, the hull of a submarine at periscope depth could be treated as a cruiser or a battleship for purposes of deep-water torpedoes.  It could also be considered to be running too deep for them.  Deep-Water torpedoes should still be able to hit a sub’s conning tower.

A submarine at periscope depth may launch torpedoes.

The submarine’s deck gun does not fire.

A submarine running at periscope depth may only be proximity spotted.  Game balance may dictate small surface and air spotting ranges.

Fully Submerged

A submerged sub is immune to most forms of enemy fire and torpedoes.  Exception: depth charges.  It also expends air and will be forced to the surface if air runs out.  Submarines have at least one “fully submerged” depth level with higher Tiers gaining access to more levels.

A submerged sub cannot launch torpedoes or use its deck gun

A submerged sub is not detectable by radar but can still be detected by Hydroacoustic Search.

Fully submerged subs have no surface or air detection radius.

Launching Torpedoes

When a submarine fires a torpedo, it is treated as if it were a surface ship having fired main battery guns.  The sub’s spotting range becomes 2/3 its max torpedo range.  The spotting distance can and should be varied by game balance, torpedo, nation and tier.

A sub may launch torpedoes at surface or periscope depth.  They function as normal torpedoes in all ways.  Torpedo tubes recharge relatively quickly at all tiers and fire individual torpedoes.

Submarines do not normally launch deep-water torpedoes but there might be a nation or premium ship that does.

Fighting Submarines

Surface ships may engage surfaced submarines normally but at a dispersion penalty built into the sub’s hull. 

Surface ships may engage a submarine at periscope depth.  The only part of the sub that will always be able to receive damage is the conning tower/superstructure.  Note that the conning tower is small and there is a dispersion penalty for firing at a sub.

Based on game balance, a sub’s periscope depth may be set such that other parts of the ship besides the conning tower could be within the blast cube of some HE shells.  It could also be set deeper to reduce damage to the conning tower.

Depth Charges

Depth charges are a new weapons system under player control that is on almost all Destroyers and some other ships.  Depth charges are launched a short distance to the right or left of the ship or can be dropped in a line behind.   Based on Tier and class, a ship will drop between 1 and 4 depth charges then go into a cooldown that varies by Tier and nation.

A sub that is within the blast cube of a depth charge when it explodes takes damage based on how close to the blast it is.

Depth charges fall through water at a rate that varies with nation and Tier.

Players can set all depth charges for a single depth (periscope depth down to Depth 1+ or let the depth for each charge be random.  Default is random depth.  Lower-Tier ships are limited in the depth levels they can drop depth charges to.  This increases with the Tier of the ship.  Note that this is not always a good thing.  A Destroyer which has depth charges that can drop to depth 3 hunting a sub that can only dive to depth 2, could make a mistake and drop a line of depth charges to Depth 3 even though the sub could not dive that deep.  RNG could set some random depth charges for Depth 3 as well.

For game balance reasons, a depth charge can only damage submarines.

To aid in dropping depth charges accurately, the interface will display an aiming marker similar to that for aiming torpedoes that takes into account the time a depth charge would need to sink to the level of the sub, its speed, etc. 

 

 

 

It's a bit long to read you... But it's obvious that if BBs, CLs and CVs play will not change, DDs play will.

For the good. Why? There is a small portion of the player base that enjoy solo hunting and sneak attacks. They can play those tactics when in non CV battles but can't in CV battles where they are easily detected. Buff those DDs concealment and nerf Squadrons spotting power isn't the solution... DDs can't be invisible. These players will be able to enjoy the game using subs playing surface/periscope/submerged modes.

At the current state of the game, when a DD pops up out of nowhere, DD will easily torp and sink a lonely (and static) BB or CV. Same if ambushing using an island... Problem is that their easily detected by planes. SSs will force BB and CV players to move around... Static BB (or CL) sniper behind an uslanfvor parking a CV behind an island will become riskier.

SSs will add fluidity to the game.

Problem is how to counter subs... DDs will using depth charges and probably ASW, etc

Issue is same as surface ships vs squadrons. At the current stage, attack is a fun experience but AA defense mechanics are quite boring as "too automatic".

WG has to develop the "gaming experience" so hunting SSs becomes fun for DD players.

Same can be said about AA. Turn on/off AA, sector reinforcement and using fighter consumable are the only offensive actions a ship can do against planes... Not very exciting. Defense is WASD, more interesting as players have to choose, "dodging torps or expose broadside and swallow torps" in a few seconds.

As far as I see, the subs risk is the same = Surface ship attacking subs gaming experience boring.

It's up to WG programmers to solve that.

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4 hours ago, vorlonagent said:

Sure massive damage can be done to subs on the surface.  Which leaves submerged and periscope depth where the sub has control and initiative.  Assuming a competent player on their first attack run, he chooses a ship to wreck, wrecks it, and then any survivors get to go after the sub.  That gameplay model should be obvious along with why it''s bad gameplay.  How much are you going to enjoy being one-shotted by a sub?

I am not a part of testing.   The system WG wants to roll out is fundamentally broken.  If they want to scrap it for something that is more in line with their core gameplay rather than further disrupts it, I might make a different decision.

The only thing I could do was suggest an alternative that does what I want, and doesn't include wire-guided super torpedoes.

I don't think sub game play is fundamentally broken at all.  In fact it fits right in with the game play we already have. 

First, subs can't one shot anything but cruisers.  Two double ping torp hits do something like 30-35k damage with two citadel hits.  That won't one shot BBs, and DDs don't have citadels.  Cruisers (and DDs) will be much better at dodging homing torps so they aren't going to be one shot sunk very often.  All of that was to point out this is nothing new.  Its the same game play we already have in the game so there is no way its fundamentally broken.  Also, subs will likely be balanced like BBs and DDs in that massive alpha strikes are possible, but not the norm.

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6 hours ago, Slimeball91 said:

I don't think sub game play is fundamentally broken at all.  In fact it fits right in with the game play we already have. 

First, subs can't one shot anything but cruisers.  Two double ping torp hits do something like 30-35k damage with two citadel hits.  That won't one shot BBs, and DDs don't have citadels.  Cruisers (and DDs) will be much better at dodging homing torps so they aren't going to be one shot sunk very often.  All of that was to point out this is nothing new.  Its the same game play we already have in the game so there is no way its fundamentally broken.  Also, subs will likely be balanced like BBs and DDs in that massive alpha strikes are possible, but not the norm.

Homing torps of any kind are new and by definition harder to dodge.  Torpedoes that ignore torpedo belt protection are new.  And the two features are being combined. 

I saw a BB stripped of 80-90% of its HP in one volley of torps.  That's not a one-shot kill for that BB but would be for one that had taken light damage.  DDs can do this if they get the right circumstances, but they need to set up or luck into those circumstances.  Submarines don't need circumstances.  It's their normal operating condition.

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11 hours ago, ElAurens said:

You are joking, yes?   So a submarine with a rather large hole all the way through it can still submerge?  Well, yeah, once, but it's never coming up again.

Speaking from a realism perspective I totally agree.  Game balance, however, demands that overpens not matter.   Sight unseen I guarantee you that WGs submarines work the same way.  Creating usable and fun subs in WOWS demands a hard departure from reality.

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23 minutes ago, vorlonagent said:

Homing torps of any kind are new and by definition harder to dodge.  Torpedoes that ignore torpedo belt protection are new.  And the two features are being combined. 

You said the concept was fundamentally flawed.  Fundamentally subs are intended to be an alpha strike ship type.  That isn't new.  Just like other alpha strike weapons these homing torps will be balanced.

26 minutes ago, vorlonagent said:

I saw a BB stripped of 80-90% of its HP in one volley of torps.

The double ping torps can land two citadel hits on a BBs for 30-35k total damage.  That's ~60% of T6 BB's HP.  I'm not saying that is or isn't balanced, just pointing out the numbers.  BTW, BBs can one shot subs.  Do you think that's broken?

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11 hours ago, CriMiNaL__ said:

Isn't this the same as a DD tho, I mean take the Asashio all you get is .9km of warning vs 1.7 fair enough the homing torps can by pass the torp protection, but only if you can get a double ping, and the DD wont show their position on the mini map, unless spotted

I would wait for the next phase of testing to see how things might change.

I'd argue it isn't the same.  Both DDs and subs can stealth launch, true.  If a ship knows a DD is in the area it can vary course and speed to attempt to throw off a DD's aim.  That's good advice for even if a DD isn't known to be in the area.  That won't help you against sub launched torpedoes because they are homing torps. 

There are lots of ways to spot a DDs in the game.  DD mains say there's too many.  Other ships if you're lucky, Radar, Hydro if its close enough, and planes.  A sub running at periscope death is hard to spot, probably won't appear on radar (I don't know for sure either way) and I have heard of the possibility of subs not showing up on Hydro if they dive deeper.   Subs give away the minimap position pinging but are not spotted, which only allows blind fire.   To take any meaningful blind fire you have to be lucky enough to have your turrets pointing the right way.  Waiting 10 or even 5 seconds for your turret to turn ought to give the sub a chance to dive, so you will have to be lucky enough to have a DD on hand.  Your last hope is if it runs out of air and must surface.  A non-DD has limited options to deal with a sub. They are dependent on luck and how the sub manages his resources.

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5 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

You said the concept was fundamentally flawed.  Fundamentally subs are intended to be an alpha strike ship type.  That isn't new.  Just like other alpha strike weapons these homing torps will be balanced.

Why must subs be an alpha strike class?  Why is that a required part of their design? 

A good ship must be fun to play and fun to play against.  How are an alpha strike class of ship fun to play against?  Sounds frustrating to me.  And that's why I say WG's subs are fundamentally flawed.
 

6 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

The double ping torps can land two citadel hits on a BBs for 30-35k total damage.  That's ~60% of T6 BB's HP.  I'm not saying that is or isn't balanced, just pointing out the numbers.  BTW, BBs can one shot subs.  Do you think that's broken?

I only know what I saw in Flamu's video.  Full health --> 10-20% health.  A clear one-shot kill against anything smaller than a BB and a possible one-shot for some intact BBs and lightly damaged ones.   A BB can do this but its guns must have been aimed well at a broadside enemy BB and blessed by the gods of RNG.  It's an normal thing for subs with homing torps that ignore torpedo protection.

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10 hours ago, franz_von_goltz said:

It's a bit long to read you... But it's obvious that if BBs, CLs and CVs play will not change, DDs play will.

For the good. Why? There is a small portion of the player base that enjoy solo hunting and sneak attacks. They can play those tactics when in non CV battles but can't in CV battles where they are easily detected. Buff those DDs concealment and nerf Squadrons spotting power isn't the solution... DDs can't be invisible. These players will be able to enjoy the game using subs playing surface/periscope/submerged modes.

I know it's long.  Laying out a complete concept is.  Thanks for at least looking it over.

10 hours ago, franz_von_goltz said:

At the current state of the game, when a DD pops up out of nowhere, DD will easily torp and sink a lonely (and static) BB or CV. Same if ambushing using an island... Problem is that their easily detected by planes. SSs will force BB and CV players to move around... Static BB (or CL) sniper behind an uslanfvor parking a CV behind an island will become riskier.

SSs will add fluidity to the game.

I'm not sure about that.   Even if the ships are moving around more, the gameplay style dictated by sub seems very static to me.

I expect subs will give BBs even more incentive to huddle in the back of the map.  Like carriers, subs will punish ships doing interesting things like flanking and further accent teams playing as a large blob of ships.  Destroyers will be in the lose-lose position of being demanded both up front to cap and back with the blob to hunt subs.

10 hours ago, franz_von_goltz said:

Problem is how to counter subs... DDs will using depth charges and probably ASW, etc

Issue is same as surface ships vs squadrons. At the current stage, attack is a fun experience but AA defense mechanics are quite boring as "too automatic".

WG has to develop the "gaming experience" so hunting SSs becomes fun for DD players.

Same can be said about AA. Turn on/off AA, sector reinforcement and using fighter consumable are the only offensive actions a ship can do against planes... Not very exciting. Defense is WASD, more interesting as players have to choose, "dodging torps or expose broadside and swallow torps" in a few seconds.

As far as I see, the subs risk is the same = Surface ship attacking subs gaming experience boring.

It's up to WG programmers to solve that.

There's another way CV and sub gameplay are similar.  I'm pretty sure AA is still designed to let the first attack through and limit the number of followup strikes  (combined AA from several ships changes this but there is also the "slingshot" exploit which gives carrier planes a free pass through enemy AA).  Subs get to wreck a ship first and then see if they survive to do it again.  It's nearly impossible to stop a sub from wrecking that first ship, which makes it frustrating to be that first ship.

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Some good suggestions and some more questionable ones as well. I dont think it hurts to bring up alternate ideas especially since its in testing right now and WG is not going to want to change things later. 

 

I would like to see some changes as well:

  • There should be some advantage to running on the surface vs fully submerged, I still think their should be a speed penalty (even just a small one) while submerged compared to the surface.
  • Fully Submerged subs should be able to proxy spot subs for the entire team. Especially since they cant be proxy detected or even hydroed in that situation. Its too easy for a sub to work with a cruiser to bait a DD into hunting the sub and then getting ambushed. Not to forget a DD that has the unfortunate experience of getting spotted by a sub that it just happened to run near...
  • Depth charges need to be significantly reworked. I think at the very least the default ones should drop much closer to the DD and have much less splash. In exchange ASW DDs can get an alternate hull where they trade a turret for a hedghog mount that allows them to much more effectively engage subs. And really automatically killing enemies is not exciting at all...
  • Subs should get their actual amount of torpedo tubes. The Carchalot for example had 6 tubes, 4 forward and 2 aft. This game does use historical armaments on other ships, nobody would accept a bismarck with 3 15" turrets or a yamato with 12" guns. 
  • the 8 knot speed limit at periscope depth is dumb and removes options from the player. They should be able to go as fast as any other underwater speed, just with a detection penalty for traveling too fast near the surface. 
  • I still think that the 02 gauge is dumb and instead there should be power gauge. Battery was historically what limited submarines underwater and it would reward captains who are able to position effectively with longer time underwater and more ability to maneuver after attacking. 
  • WG should at the very least introduce a premium CV where they replaced the rocket fighters with an ASW patrol fitted with mk 24 fido homing torpedo. 

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29 minutes ago, vorlonagent said:

I'd argue it isn't the same.  Both DDs and subs can stealth launch, true.  If a ship knows a DD is in the area it can vary course and speed to attempt to throw off a DD's aim.  That's good advice for even if a DD isn't known to be in the area.  That won't help you against sub launched torpedoes because they are homing torps.

Varying speed and course will help because the homing torps only turn so much.  The sub player launches the torps in the direction he thinks you're going, if you turn the torps need to make up even more ground to catch you.  If you turn enough the torps won't be able to turn enough to intercept you.  Also, the homing only lasts for so long and then the torps go back to non-homing, with low alpha.

35 minutes ago, vorlonagent said:

Subs give away the minimap position pinging but are not spotted, which only allows blind fire.

I don't think the mini map spotting after pings is meant to enable blind fire.  It only supposed to let you know there is a sub that just pinged, and you get to decide what to do with that info; maybe you start to dodge in you're in a BB, maybe you charge that position if you are in a DD.

26 minutes ago, vorlonagent said:

Why must subs be an alpha strike class?  Why is that a required part of their design?

Well, BBs, DDs and even cruisers can land big alpha strikes.  I suspect the RoF, and hit rate for subs is going to be pretty low, so yeah they probably need to be more of an alpha strike ship type.  Could WG do something different, sure, but what we've seen is what they are doing.

29 minutes ago, vorlonagent said:

A good ship must be fun to play and fun to play against.  How are an alpha strike class of ship fun to play against?  Sounds frustrating to me.  And that's why I say WG's subs are fundamentally flawed.

Subs aren't going to be balanced in a way that is outside anything we already have in the game.  If I were to make a guess now I'd say subs will have an average damage comparable to DDs.  Also I don't think subs are going to be landing massive hits all the time.  I won't be surprised if it ends up balanced like BBs, where big strikes are possible but don't happen regularly.

33 minutes ago, vorlonagent said:

I only know what I saw in Flamu's video.

That's where I got the numbers I posted.  Check out this pic showing the damage from a double cit on a BB, 34,834 damage. 

BTW, I hope you don't feel I'm trying to beat you up here.  I've got concerns about how this is going to play out just like everyone.  I've taken up the role of devil's advocate because almost no one else has.

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