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Lady_Athena

Wargaming you need to figure out how you want classes to play

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Over the years the balance of this game has become a complete joke. With excessive damage steroids put into things, and completely ignoring other parts of the game.

These Submarines are going to throw the entire game into disarray... Even with just 1 submarine on each side.. The game balance state as it stands right now can't handle it..

 

Note: My examples are for the "majority" of the ship class.. I know certain nations, and certain ships have it better or worse than others, and I'm not here to nit pick every ship, on every nation..

 

Battleships:

What do you want Battleships to be doing? Because its certainly not being the spearhead, or pushing forward which was their original intent back in alpha, beta and year 1 of World of Warships. They used to be able to push forward, and be that scary brawler, contester of caps. Using the heal to weather the storm of incoming fire from other BB's and cruisers.. Their rudder shift time was enough that if you were quick on it, you could turn in and dodge most of a torpedo spread, or if you had sonar outright dodge them, and that was perfectly ok.. because they were doing what they were supposed to be doing..

A battleship in Alpha, Beta, and Year 1 of World of Warships would generally have to keep tabs on multiple ships firing at them + torpedoes. So the faster rudder time, of trying to stay angled, dodging torps, and shooting back was alot to ask for, but it was fair being the forefront of the battle. The downside was their accuracy to their guns. This is why they were more or less not very accurate at long ranges, (and still aren't really to this day except for a few odd balls).

 

Now with the constant steroid creep into every other ship class, what are Battleships supposed to be doing? They can't push forward or they get melted 100-0 in a matter of literal seconds from just two IFHE cruisers sitting behind islands, or multiple torpedo spreads from destroyers or cruisers. or both.

 

Cruisers:

Right now Cruisers are in a weird state.. They do insane damage at high tiers with IFHE, but are mediocre, or straight up garbage at other tiers. They are in my opinion the ultimate god mode at high tiers as they do literally everything you could want, and due to Battleship RNG at anything past 15km for most nations, they can sit at 20km lasering anything down and do asinine amounts of damage with little threat in return (if they aren't being stupid and broad siding).

Originally in Alpha, Beta, and Year 1 of WOrld of Warships, they had 3 roles:

1) Hunt Destroyers

2) provide AA cover for Battleships pushing into caps, or trying to contest an area.

3) counter enemy cruisers.

Now they just feast on Battleships, and hide behind islands. Or shoot at anything else in range with their insane ROF and IFHE damage.

 

Destroyers:

Destroyers back in Alpha, Beta, and Year 1 used to take skill to play. They were the most skill oriented class (now they are the least skill required class).

Originally they were the forward scouts (besides aircraft carriers). They helped battleships contest caps, and were a deterrence with extremely high torpedo damage and smoke screens.

This worked, and worked well. They had citadels, but were extremely hard to hit, but were rewarded with helping battleships push forward, provide cover for them through smoke, and forcing enemy battleships off with their torpedoes, and were rewarded with high damage numbers.. They were never intended to be the un catch able assassins.

 

But now they are. Their removal of citadels was a massive buff to them, with their stealth, massive torp damages still, and ease of contesting caps solo, and doing whatever they please with one of the highest threats in the game due to their insanely low detection ranges, and super high torpedo damage, they can do whatever they well please, (so long as they stay away from radar cruisers).

 

They went from a skill required support ship for forward pushing BB's, to stealth assassins with no draw backs, every steroid you could want.

 

Aircraft Carriers:

Originally, they were the counters to everything. They were more or less, pretty OP. I won't lie. Though they required a bit of skill to control the planes, they were rewarded with everything with no draw backs.. While I didn't play Carriers often, I remember how broken they were at the time. The reason most people don't remember this is because of how small the carrier player base actually was.. I may be over stating how powereful they were, but ultimately they had a 1 shot potential on any ship, and could swing any game in their favor.

 

Now though they are a waste of space. Every ship counters it with AA, and the player base mentality toward them magically shifted in extremes against them to boot. Despite them being far more potent, and far more dangerous before the rework. The rework put all eyes on the carriers and all of it negative despite them being neutered to the extreme compared to their original iteration.

 

What do you want them to be doing Wargaming? Are they supposed to pick off weak ships? If so why is their damage so incredibly small even against weak ships? Are they supposed to hunt destroyers? If so, why are rocket planes the only thing you can get, and even then the damage is super low?

Why are even weak AA ships able to absolutely cripple planes solo?

 

What alot of players don't remember is what it was like before the rework.. If a carrier was in your game, and you were NOT with your team, you got 1 shot, buh bye, next game, have a nice day. Even destroyers had this problem if the carrier was a very good player.

Now, literally any ship by itself can counter and swat away planes with minimal damage (unless the carrier got lucky on RNG, which is all ship players seem to remember).

 

Submarines:

?????????????????????????

 

Where do they go into this?

 

I do love the idea of submarines, but this games balance is all out of whack... Submarines able to double down on punishing battleships trying to push forward... forcing them to sit in the back even more, and even cruisers can't counter them much until end game when their oxygen reserves are depleted.

 

Destroyers being a "oh a submarine" and one shotting it in most cases, or crippling it to such an extreme its nearly out of the fight.

 

The balance with submarines is the same problem the entire game has right now... Its EXTREMES Either you one shot it, or you do nothing to it. There is almost nothing in between.

------------------------------------------

 

And that brings me to my ultimate point.. This game has far too much steroids, with more steroids to counter those steroids.. Radar, sonar, etc. being far too potent to counter the completely broken steroid loaded cruisers/destroyers at high tier..

If Wargaming wants Carriers and Submarines to work, they need to pull back and start heavy nerfing every ship, and buffing where need be.

 

Submarines shouldn't be doing 70% of a battleships HP, but they shouldn't be getting 1 shot by something themselves either. Cruisers need some form of detection against submarines, even if its not damage wise, but at the same time submarines need a form of avoidance, and counter play to destroyers than "sit and wait to get exploded".

 

I could go into more of what the game honestly needs for a healthier and more fun gameplay experience across the board, but its getting long enough already and I made my point.

 

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CVs, BBs, CL/CAs, and DDs (and soon Subs) are NOT god damned ship "classes"!!!  They're ship TYPES!!!  Learn the friggin' difference!!!

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1 minute ago, Crucis said:

CVs, BBs, CL/CAs, and DDs (and soon Subs) are NOT god damned ship "classes"!!!  They're ship TYPES!!!  Learn the friggin' difference!!!

giphy.gif

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Why do I, trust a review that has the perspective of a BB??

Why do I, trust a review that has the perspective of someone who thinks only DDs/cruisers/subs/CV are the problem???

Propaganda rant boys nothing to see here... BBs are no Angles despite what the rosy picture the OP paints of them.

Edited by Navalpride33
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They let the "class" matters long time ago... just for example we have cruisers how tank more then bbs :P

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All the ships have one purpose and Wargaming only wants them to do one thing. Make money.

They will continue to pump out these paper ships with insane power creep and grab the cash while they can.

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Lots of ships are far too diverse to be thrown under simple class/role systems. I feel what may need to happen is for rewards to start scaling towards what a ship is good at. I mean they already adjust the earning multipliers of what a ship can make.

 

I.E. A carrier that can't do damage to save it's life, but still see as great rewards for providing spotting damage. Maybe even negate the spit spotting rewards if it saw the target first. 

Edited by Yoshiblue

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1 hour ago, Lady_Athena said:

Over the years the balance of this game has become a complete joke. With excessive damage steroids put into things, and completely ignoring other parts of the game.

These Submarines are going to throw the entire game into disarray... Even with just 1 submarine on each side.. The game balance state as it stands right now can't handle it..

 

Note: My examples are for the "majority" of the ship class.. I know certain nations, and certain ships have it better or worse than others, and I'm not here to nit pick every ship, on every nation..

 

Battleships:

What do you want Battleships to be doing? Because its certainly not being the spearhead, or pushing forward which was their original intent back in alpha, beta and year 1 of World of Warships. They used to be able to push forward, and be that scary brawler, contester of caps. Using the heal to weather the storm of incoming fire from other BB's and cruisers.. Their rudder shift time was enough that if you were quick on it, you could turn in and dodge most of a torpedo spread, or if you had sonar outright dodge them, and that was perfectly ok.. because they were doing what they were supposed to be doing..

A battleship in Alpha, Beta, and Year 1 of World of Warships would generally have to keep tabs on multiple ships firing at them + torpedoes. So the faster rudder time, of trying to stay angled, dodging torps, and shooting back was alot to ask for, but it was fair being the forefront of the battle. The downside was their accuracy to their guns. This is why they were more or less not very accurate at long ranges, (and still aren't really to this day except for a few odd balls).

 

Now with the constant steroid creep into every other ship class, what are Battleships supposed to be doing? They can't push forward or they get melted 100-0 in a matter of literal seconds from just two IFHE cruisers sitting behind islands, or multiple torpedo spreads from destroyers or cruisers. or both.

 

Cruisers:

Right now Cruisers are in a weird state.. They do insane damage at high tiers with IFHE, but are mediocre, or straight up garbage at other tiers. They are in my opinion the ultimate god mode at high tiers as they do literally everything you could want, and due to Battleship RNG at anything past 15km for most nations, they can sit at 20km lasering anything down and do asinine amounts of damage with little threat in return (if they aren't being stupid and broad siding).

Originally in Alpha, Beta, and Year 1 of WOrld of Warships, they had 3 roles:

1) Hunt Destroyers

2) provide AA cover for Battleships pushing into caps, or trying to contest an area.

3) counter enemy cruisers.

Now they just feast on Battleships, and hide behind islands. Or shoot at anything else in range with their insane ROF and IFHE damage.

 

Destroyers:

Destroyers back in Alpha, Beta, and Year 1 used to take skill to play. They were the most skill oriented class (now they are the least skill required class).

Originally they were the forward scouts (besides aircraft carriers). They helped battleships contest caps, and were a deterrence with extremely high torpedo damage and smoke screens.

This worked, and worked well. They had citadels, but were extremely hard to hit, but were rewarded with helping battleships push forward, provide cover for them through smoke, and forcing enemy battleships off with their torpedoes, and were rewarded with high damage numbers.. They were never intended to be the un catch able assassins.

 

But now they are. Their removal of citadels was a massive buff to them, with their stealth, massive torp damages still, and ease of contesting caps solo, and doing whatever they please with one of the highest threats in the game due to their insanely low detection ranges, and super high torpedo damage, they can do whatever they well please, (so long as they stay away from radar cruisers).

 

They went from a skill required support ship for forward pushing BB's, to stealth assassins with no draw backs, every steroid you could want.

 

Aircraft Carriers:

Originally, they were the counters to everything. They were more or less, pretty OP. I won't lie. Though they required a bit of skill to control the planes, they were rewarded with everything with no draw backs.. While I didn't play Carriers often, I remember how broken they were at the time. The reason most people don't remember this is because of how small the carrier player base actually was.. I may be over stating how powereful they were, but ultimately they had a 1 shot potential on any ship, and could swing any game in their favor.

 

Now though they are a waste of space. Every ship counters it with AA, and the player base mentality toward them magically shifted in extremes against them to boot. Despite them being far more potent, and far more dangerous before the rework. The rework put all eyes on the carriers and all of it negative despite them being neutered to the extreme compared to their original iteration.

 

What do you want them to be doing Wargaming? Are they supposed to pick off weak ships? If so why is their damage so incredibly small even against weak ships? Are they supposed to hunt destroyers? If so, why are rocket planes the only thing you can get, and even then the damage is super low?

Why are even weak AA ships able to absolutely cripple planes solo?

 

What alot of players don't remember is what it was like before the rework.. If a carrier was in your game, and you were NOT with your team, you got 1 shot, buh bye, next game, have a nice day. Even destroyers had this problem if the carrier was a very good player.

Now, literally any ship by itself can counter and swat away planes with minimal damage (unless the carrier got lucky on RNG, which is all ship players seem to remember).

 

Submarines:

?????????????????????????

 

Where do they go into this?

 

I do love the idea of submarines, but this games balance is all out of whack... Submarines able to double down on punishing battleships trying to push forward... forcing them to sit in the back even more, and even cruisers can't counter them much until end game when their oxygen reserves are depleted.

 

Destroyers being a "oh a submarine" and one shotting it in most cases, or crippling it to such an extreme its nearly out of the fight.

 

The balance with submarines is the same problem the entire game has right now... Its EXTREMES Either you one shot it, or you do nothing to it. There is almost nothing in between.

------------------------------------------

 

And that brings me to my ultimate point.. This game has far too much steroids, with more steroids to counter those steroids.. Radar, sonar, etc. being far too potent to counter the completely broken steroid loaded cruisers/destroyers at high tier..

If Wargaming wants Carriers and Submarines to work, they need to pull back and start heavy nerfing every ship, and buffing where need be.

 

Submarines shouldn't be doing 70% of a battleships HP, but they shouldn't be getting 1 shot by something themselves either. Cruisers need some form of detection against submarines, even if its not damage wise, but at the same time submarines need a form of avoidance, and counter play to destroyers than "sit and wait to get exploded".

 

I could go into more of what the game honestly needs for a healthier and more fun gameplay experience across the board, but its getting long enough already and I made my point.

 

How in the hell are DDs the least skill to play now? You realize they have to dodge AC, dodge radar, dodge hydro, dodge HE spamming cruisers, dodge other DDs, cap, and spot.

where is that being the least skill ship?

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I have played since the closed beta weekend and have rarely, if ever, seen a BB push caps even in the early days.

1 hour ago, Lady_Athena said:

(now they are the least skill required class)

You state that destroyers take less skill than the brain dead BB play we have now? 

In the words of Luke Skywalker in the abomination of a movie The Last Jedi, (paraphrasing) 'Amazing! Every you word you said in that last sentence is wrong"...

8 minutes ago, Navalpride33 said:

Why do I, trust a review that has the perspective of a BB??

Spot on Navalpride33!

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13 minutes ago, Navalpride33 said:

Why do I, trust a review that has the perspective of a BB??

Why do I, trust a review that has the perspective of someone who thinks only DDs/cruisers/subs/CV are the problem???

Propaganda rant boys nothing to see here... BBs are no Angles despite what the rosy picture the OP paints of them.

Why do I trust the review of <insert class here>.... I can do that too..

 

problem is destroyers are expected to do everything, and are given every steroid injection possible to make sure they can do it with impunity. The only thing they need to worrya bout is radar.

 

I'm not saying BB's aren't brainless either btw.. It's just BB's bring nothing to the game besides lucky RNG citadels, and HP pinata.

 

Go ahead and skew everything though lol... its great to see how the forums try to argue with hate and prejudice not facts.

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20 minutes ago, Crucis said:

CVs, BBs, CL/CAs, and DDs (and soon Subs) are NOT god damned ship "classes"!!!  They're ship TYPES!!!  Learn the friggin' difference!!!

Everyone appreciates this, and everyone also is going to continue to call them classes. Just get on board, my man.

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5 minutes ago, Lady_Athena said:

Why do I trust the review of <insert class here>.... I can do that too..

Pardon me, I did not write a BB manifesto disguised as a rant...

If you're trying to define my position because of my opposition or because I disagree with your propaganda manifesto...

Just stop... lol

Edited by Navalpride33

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3 minutes ago, Pytheas said:

Everyone appreciates this, and everyone also is going to continue to call them classes. Just get on board, my man.

No chance in hell!!!  I will continue to call them out on their laziness whenever I damned well feel like it!!!

 

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OP hates DDs and loves BBs, so anything you say to the contrary will be instantly dismissed. It's kind of a funny thing to watch with some popcorn though. :cap_popcorn:

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15 minutes ago, Navalpride33 said:

Pardon me, I did not write a BB manifesto disguised as a rant...

If you're trying to define my position because of my opposition or because I disagree with your propaganda manifesto...

Just stop... lol

 

8 minutes ago, Vector03 said:

OP hates DDs and loves BBs, so anything you say to the contrary will be instantly dismissed. It's kind of a funny thing to watch with some popcorn though. :cap_popcorn:

I don't respond to trolls besides calling them out.

 

I actually like playing all ship classes. The only reason my BB has the highest played is because I got given 2 free premium BB's, so I use them to grind credits, because they are actually very good ships.

 

Keep talking into a vacuum though even though I straight up gave a suggestion to nerf BB's lol...

 

And just incase you're full derp and not actually a troll I'll help you out here..

 

The topic is Wargaming needs to figure out teh balance between ship "types".. What they're supposed to be doing, and balancing them. Not what ship type I personally prefer, and hating me for it and trolling me. :)

 

Calling out my favorite ship type trying to claim everything I said is 100% wrong cuz of it is just trolling, or trying to de rail the subject, and circle jerk it, which is the exact definition of a troll.

 

Now if you were to point out stuff I said and counter it with logic and facts, that'd be entirely different, but you didn't.

 

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12 minutes ago, Lady_Athena said:

Calling out my favorite ship type trying to claim everything I said is 100% wrong cuz of it is just trolling, or trying to de rail the subject, and circle jerk it, which is the exact definition of a troll.

Wrong,

Your perspective is to narrow (of a BB) for every ship class. Therefor your cherry picking problems that benefit the ship class point of view...

Just because I dont share those view or agree with THAT point of view, dont make me a troll... A critic yes....

Then again you dont have a counter argument... Its not about what you played... Its your Original Post BB manifesto... Its on the boarder line of propaganda.. Its your right to spread propaganda all you want....

In the end, its not consistent nor truthful.

Edited by Navalpride33
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First step -- stop looking at them as "classes", this isn't an MMO, you don't need find and enforce specific roles the Rogue with the Mage with the Shaman. 

Second step -- don't try to force ship types into roles or try to enforce a particular play style.

Third -- they're not classes at all, they're types.  "Iowa" is a class, "County" is a class, etc.  Battleship is not a class. 

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3 minutes ago, KilljoyCutter said:

First step -- stop looking at them as "classes", this isn't an MMO, you don't need find and enforce specific roles the Rogue with the Mage with the Shaman. 

Second step -- don't try to force ship types into roles or try to enforce a particular play style.

Third -- they're not classes at all, they're types.  "Iowa" is a class, "County" is a class, etc.  Battleship is not a class. 

Fair enough, but makes the situation even worse, and my point stands even stronger.

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1 hour ago, Crucis said:

CVs, BBs, CL/CAs, and DDs (and soon Subs) are NOT god damned ship "classes"!!!  They're ship TYPES!!!  Learn the friggin' difference!!!

Why do you keep on with this? Who cares?

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I stopped reading after you said DD's are the easiest type to play. 

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Just now, Grflrgl said:

Why do you keep on with this? Who cares?

Anyone with any sense of right and wrong, and respect for naval history and traditions and nomenclature should care!  Who cares?  I CARE, for starters!!!  Why ask such a STUPID question!!!

 

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1 hour ago, Crucis said:

No chance in hell!!!  I will continue to call them out on their laziness whenever I damned well feel like it!!!

 

I'm proud of you, you magnificent sob!

Edited by Pytheas
don't suspend me, bro

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2 hours ago, Navalpride33 said:

Why do I, trust a review that has the perspective of a BB??

Why do I, trust a review that has the perspective of someone who thinks only DDs/cruisers/subs/CV are the problem???

Propaganda rant boys nothing to see here... BBs are no Angles despite what the rosy picture the OP paints of them.

while his review is a bit biased towards BB he does have a point in that WOW balance is a mess and encourage players to be pasive:

 cruisers are afraid of pushing becouse a lucky citadel from a BB AP is a 1 way trip to port.

 BB are afraid to push becouse HE spammers and the  "bogeyman DD" that you never know from where is his torpedo wall going to come from 

DD are afraid to push becouse of all the radar and planes keeping him spoted

 

would be nice if WOW added tier 1 upgrades that encourage people to be more agresive like for instance giving BB a Buff to secondary guns and AA , increased resistance to HE and fires, increased turning speed, increased concealment at the cost of a large penalty to main guns max range.

 

either that or balance the above mentioned things so players arent so afraid of pushing like making citadels way harder to penetrate, HE having the hability to either burn or penetrate but never both and reducing the amount of torpedos a single ship can drop at the same time.  

 

    

Edited by pepe_trueno
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1 hour ago, Crucis said:

Anyone with any sense of right and wrong, and respect for naval history and traditions and nomenclature should care!  Who cares?  I CARE, for starters!!!  Why ask such a STUPID question!!!

The problem is WG refers to them as classes.  This is just another example of where this arcade game deviates from reality.  BTW, I use the term ship types.

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50 minutes ago, pepe_trueno said:

while his review is a bit biased towards BB he does have a point in that WOW balance is a mess and encourage players to be pasive:

Biased views based on propaganda situations, with the intent of misleading/muddying/deceiving the public for the benefit of a ship class (an OP ship class), Is wrong...

Its not the point of view/perception that will resolve the problems of upper tier play... Therefor any solution to fix it is going to be criticized.

 Its the cherry picking of certain problems to push that one class point of view/perception agenda.

50 minutes ago, pepe_trueno said:

cruisers are afraid of pushing becouse a lucky citadel from a BB AP is a 1 way trip to port.

 BB are afraid to push becouse HE spammers and the  "bogeyman DD" that you never know from where is his torpedo wall going to come from 

DD are afraid to push becouse of all the radar and planes keeping him spoted

As I pointed out in many threads and I will point it out here... As long as

  1. Ordnance discrimination exists
  2. The DMG recived VS the dmg done per ship class is not proportionate, for all ships classes and ship HP is not restricted/controlled/monitored...
  3. We continue to give power to the following DMG to be uncontrolled which is a huge mistake
    1. Fire
    2. AP
    3. Mindless Secondary DMG

Then your above points will stand... One thing I have to disagree with you, Its not fear driven...

50 minutes ago, pepe_trueno said:

would be nice if WOW added tier 1 upgrades that encourage people to be more agresive like for instance giving BB a Buff to secondary guns and AA , increased resistance to HE and fires, increased turning speed, increased concealment at the cost of a large penalty to main guns max rangeHe

^^^^ Heck no....Power creeping a class especially at tier 10 should be frowned upon.

50 minutes ago, pepe_trueno said:

either that or balance the above mentioned things so players arent so afraid of pushing like making citadels way harder to penetrate, HE having the hability to either burn or penetrate but never both and reducing the amount of torpedos a single ship can drop at the same time. 

^^^ GL with that... I dont think BB what to return back to the balance state of 2017!

Torps are already the most nerfed ordnance in the game...

  • At 3 min per reload of a tier 10 DDs (on avg)
  • And 2 min reload for tier 8 or 9...
  • Not to mention Flood DMG nerf
  • no more liquidator achievement

To pin blame on an ordnance that is less then %9 hit rate at tier 10 even with an over 2 min reload time... Its untrue...

I state my points as to the cause now you can disagree if you like... Just remember I am not advocating for any ship class perspective in specific... The same cant be said about the OP... 

 

 

Edited by Navalpride33
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