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Hermetica

MM proposal: Tier IV+ ONLY for Tier IV CVs

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I know this has been proposed before, but I want to propose it once more to keep it fresh: prevent Tier IV CVs from facing anything below Tier IV.

As most people who have recently played games tiered below VI are probably quite aware, there's quite a bit of seal clubbing going on right now at the hands of Tier IV CVs, many of whom are resetting lines for the Research Bureau, and many others who simply realize they can run rampant at lower tiers. The problem, of course, is that many, many Tier III ships have literally no AA, and many of those who do have such pitiful AA that they might not have any at all.

This means that people who want to seal club know that they can farm tons of damage on battleships and protected cruisers without any risk to themselves and without any possibility of counterplay on the part of the hapless battleship and protected cruiser captains. There is quite literally nothing these types of ships can do - they don't have sufficient AA to form any real AA bubble, even if they do group together, they're too slow and clumsy to dodge any sort of CV attack, they can't escape anywhere, etc. Basically, if a CV decides to attack them, they just die. That's all there is to it, and there's nothing they can do to prevent it. Given that many of these players are new to the game and so probably wouldn't know how to play defensively against CVs in the first place, even if there was some sort of effective counterplay, against experienced CV captains they still wouldn't stand a chance.

So, the simplest solution would seem to be to limit Tier IV CVs to Tier IV matches and above. Tier IV AA still isn't exactly great, but at least it almost universally exists, notable exceptions like the Arky B aside. Ships tend to be faster, too, so the chance for active counterplay goes up. There would still certainly be seal clubbing issues, but at least it wouldn't be as pronounced as it is now. 

Edited by Hermetica
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10 minutes ago, Hermetica said:

I know this has been proposed before, but I want to propose it once more to keep it fresh: prevent Tier IV CVs from facing anything below Tier IV.

As most people who have recently played games tiered below VI are probably quite aware, there's quite a bit of seal clubbing going on right now at the hands of Tier IV CVs, many of whom are resetting lines for the Research Bureau, and many others who simply realize they can run rampant at lower tiers. The problem, of course, is that many, many Tier III ships have literally no AA, and many of those who do have such pitiful AA that they might not have any at all.

This means that people who want to seal club know that they can farm tons of damage on battleships and protected cruisers without any risk to themselves and without any possibility of counterplay on the part of the hapless battleship and protected cruiser captains. There is quite literally nothing these types of ships can do - they don't have sufficient AA to form any real AA bubble, even if they do group together, they're too slow and clumsy to dodge any sort of CV attack, they can't escape anywhere, etc. Basically, if a CV decides to attack them, they just die. That's all there is to it, and there's nothing they can do to prevent it. Given that many of these players are new to the game and so probably wouldn't know how to play defensively against CVs in the first place, even if there was some sort of effective counterplay, against experienced CV captains they still wouldn't stand a chance.

So, the simplest solution would seem to be to limit Tier IV CVs to Tier IV matches and above. Tier IV AA still isn't exactly great, but at least it almost universally exists, notable exceptions like the Arky B aside. Ships tend to be faster, too, so the chance for active counterplay goes up. There would still certainly be seal clubbing issues, but at least it wouldn't be as pronounced as it is now. 

You do realize that this would guarantee that nearly every tier 4 match would either be three CV's or a queue dump which never comes up with something that the players will enjoy.

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5 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

You do realize that this would guarantee that nearly every tier 4 match would either be three CV's or a queue dump which never comes up with something that the players will enjoy.

This.  Per Sub_Octavian, CV games need enough non CV ships in the match up to make them balanced correctly.  Adding more CVs to a match actually relieves a bit of that issue but the MM tries to avoid it if possible.

Restricting the number of non CV ships in the queue even more, will just cause a lot more multiple CV matches to be created.  The pool with which to fill in the match with surface ships, would become much smaller.

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Just now, Octavian_of_Roma said:

I dont think this solves anything. Probably just creates more problems, like the one Brushwolf mentioned. 

Ones I mentioned, queue dumps and three CV matches neither of which we need more of.

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This is one of those suggestions that seems sagacious until it's put up to any kind of scrutiny. Basically, it's a horrible idea.

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26 minutes ago, Hermetica said:

I know this has been proposed before, but I want to propose it once more to keep it fresh: prevent Tier IV CVs from facing anything below Tier IV.

As most people who have recently played games tiered below VI are probably quite aware, there's quite a bit of seal clubbing going on right now at the hands of Tier IV CVs, many of whom are resetting lines for the Research Bureau, and many others who simply realize they can run rampant at lower tiers. The problem, of course, is that many, many Tier III ships have literally no AA, and many of those who do have such pitiful AA that they might not have any at all.

This means that people who want to seal club know that they can farm tons of damage on battleships and protected cruisers without any risk to themselves and without any possibility of counterplay on the part of the hapless battleship and protected cruiser captains. There is quite literally nothing these types of ships can do - they don't have sufficient AA to form any real AA bubble, even if they do group together, they're too slow and clumsy to dodge any sort of CV attack, they can't escape anywhere, etc. Basically, if a CV decides to attack them, they just die. That's all there is to it, and there's nothing they can do to prevent it. Given that many of these players are new to the game and so probably wouldn't know how to play defensively against CVs in the first place, even if there was some sort of effective counterplay, against experienced CV captains they still wouldn't stand a chance.

So, the simplest solution would seem to be to limit Tier IV CVs to Tier IV matches and above. Tier IV AA still isn't exactly great, but at least it almost universally exists, notable exceptions like the Arky B aside. Ships tend to be faster, too, so the chance for active counterplay goes up. There would still certainly be seal clubbing issues, but at least it wouldn't be as pronounced as it is now. 

Wow a cv rant! Wow that is so strange. Have never seen a cv rant.

Wow and wonder why no new people are showing up....

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2 hours ago, jags_domain said:

Wow a cv rant! Wow that is so strange. Have never seen a cv rant.

Wow and wonder why no new people are showing up....

It was not a CV rant. I have nothing against CVs. I play them myself, albeit infrequently these days because they're so expensive to run. This IS, however, a suggestion that CVs not end up in matches against ships that have literally no way to defend themselves or any other form of counterplay, because that's decidedly not fun for anyone but the CV. And maybe not even the CV, provided they actually enjoy a challenge over shooting fish in a barrel.

 

2 hours ago, BrushWolf said:

You do realize that this would guarantee that nearly every tier 4 match would either be three CV's or a queue dump which never comes up with something that the players will enjoy.

Honestly? I don't really see how that's much worse. Well, okay, let me amend that: provided they limit it to two CVs per team rather than the current three, I honestly think it's a better situation than the current one. I recognize this could cause MM issues, but protected MM is a thing already, and people manage to live with it. Speaking personally, as a CV captain or as a captain of any other ship type, I'd rather wait five minutes and end up in a weird 4v4 match or whatever than find myself in a game with a CV or three versus ships that can do literally nothing against them.

 

2 hours ago, SkaerKrow said:

This is one of those suggestions that seems sagacious until it's put up to any kind of scrutiny. Basically, it's a horrible idea.

Fair enough. Have a better idea? Because the current situation is a real mess.

Edited by Hermetica

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3 hours ago, Hermetica said:

I know this has been proposed before, but I want to propose it once more to keep it fresh: prevent Tier IV CVs from facing anything below Tier IV.

As most people who have recently played games tiered below VI are probably quite aware, there's quite a bit of seal clubbing going on right now at the hands of Tier IV CVs, many of whom are resetting lines for the Research Bureau, and many others who simply realize they can run rampant at lower tiers. The problem, of course, is that many, many Tier III ships have literally no AA, and many of those who do have such pitiful AA that they might not have any at all.

This means that people who want to seal club know that they can farm tons of damage on battleships and protected cruisers without any risk to themselves and without any possibility of counterplay on the part of the hapless battleship and protected cruiser captains. There is quite literally nothing these types of ships can do - they don't have sufficient AA to form any real AA bubble, even if they do group together, they're too slow and clumsy to dodge any sort of CV attack, they can't escape anywhere, etc. Basically, if a CV decides to attack them, they just die. That's all there is to it, and there's nothing they can do to prevent it. Given that many of these players are new to the game and so probably wouldn't know how to play defensively against CVs in the first place, even if there was some sort of effective counterplay, against experienced CV captains they still wouldn't stand a chance.

So, the simplest solution would seem to be to limit Tier IV CVs to Tier IV matches and above. Tier IV AA still isn't exactly great, but at least it almost universally exists, notable exceptions like the Arky B aside. Ships tend to be faster, too, so the chance for active counterplay goes up. There would still certainly be seal clubbing issues, but at least it wouldn't be as pronounced as it is now. 

There's always been alot of seal clubbing going on.... not just in CV's... in-fact, I'll bet seal-clubbers outnumber legitimate new players in low tiers.

I've been playing alot of low tier games lately. I recruited friends into the game, and I've been training them. While at tiers 6 and lower I noticed that there is a metric sheet ton of seal-clubbers. We got Alpha veterans in Arkansas B's, St.Louis' with 19 pt captains, V-25's, Vampires, Konig Albert's, Nikolai's, and Guilio Ceasare's... seal clubbing is nothing new and just as prominent as it's always been. People play low tiers because they don't lose credits, there's no hydro mostly, and no radar.

So this is a symptom of a bigger problem. Why are players playing CV's at T4? Could it be that the T10/T8 CV's are not producing the damage they should and the AA is too unforgiving? That a T4 CV is more fun and actually can outperform a T10 CV?

There is tons of counter-play at T4... the problem is that players are refusing to utilize it. There are AA cruisers and ways to mitigate CV's. I've played these tiers as well... and there's probably a very good reason why WG did nothing about it in 0.8.8.0 ... and that's because it's not broken. People are not cooperating,  and not using a proper ship or captain loadout. They are all doing what seal-clubbers wanna do... solo the galaxy with their ship of choice. Then complain on the forums when their stats start crashing...

Fix T10 and T8  CV's and T4 won't be so enticing.

 

Edited by ElectroVeeDub
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3 minutes ago, ElectroVeeDub said:

There is tons of counter-play at T4... the problem is that players are refusing to utilize it.

You're right, there IS plenty of counter-play at T4. However, for many, many T3 ships, there is literally nothing you can do when targeted by CVs. Which is the point of my suggestion of restricting T4 CVs to T4+ games. And yes, there is seal clubbing at every level, but this is unique in that many ships LITERALLY have no recourse when targeted by a CV. Can't run, can't hide, can't dodge, can't shoot anything down... nothing.

Edited by Hermetica
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3 hours ago, BrushWolf said:

You do realize that this would guarantee that nearly every tier 4 match would either be three CV's or a queue dump which never comes up with something that the players will enjoy.

That's true. I wonder how that could be. It's almost like having CVs around is not enjoyable or something. 

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Just now, Hermetica said:

You're right, there IS plenty of counter-play at T4. However, for many, many T3 ships, there is literally nothing you can do when targeted by CVs. Which is why I'm suggesting restricting T4 CVs to T4+ games.

Did you know that the Katori is a better AA platform at T3 than the Yubari at T4?

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2 minutes ago, ElectroVeeDub said:

Did you know that the Katori is a better AA platform at T3 than the Yubari at T4?

Okay? The Katori is a premium ship that is fairly rare. And yeah, some T3 ships have decent AA. That doesn't change the fact that many T3 ships have no AA (or such weak AA that they might as well not have any), are too slow to escape CVs, too clumsy to dodge, etc.

Edited by Hermetica

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Just now, Hermetica said:

You're right, there IS plenty of counter-play at T4. However, for many, many T3 ships, there is literally nothing you can do when targeted by CVs. Which is why I'm suggesting restricting T4 CVs to T4+ games.

Exactly. As long as there are CVs present, I can't play my T3s. And I enjoy Konig A, Aurora, Varyag, and Vampire. 

Nor will I purchase any T3 premiums. Why pay to be fodder? 

WG apparently doesn't care, though. 

Look, if you want WG to pay attention to T3, you really need to change its name to "T10".....

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4 minutes ago, Hermetica said:

Okay? The Katori is a premium ship that is fairly rare. And yeah, some T3 ships have decent AA. That doesn't change the fact that many T3 ships have no AA, are too slow to escape CVs, too clumsy to dodge, etc.

The Katori is not rare... its in the armory. It's a coal ship... :)

There is a certain amount of responsibility to the player to play correctly. That doesnt mean the game is broken...

Here's what Flambass does while seal-clubbing. If only other people had the wherewithal to do this too?

And trust me... when I see other seal-clubbers there whining they have no AA? Like above? I have zero empathy for them... they're there farming too...

 

 

Edited by ElectroVeeDub

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11 minutes ago, ElectroVeeDub said:

The Katori is not rare... its in the armory. It's a coal ship... :)

There is a certain amount of responsibility to the player to play correctly. That doesnt mean the game is broken...

Here's what Flambass does while seal-clubbing. If only other people had the wherewithal to do this too?

 

 

The Katori was perhaps a coal ship in the past, but it is not currently a coal ship, at least on NA. And... you linked to a clip of a T6 match. I really don't know how that's relevant.

Anyway, how would you suggest a slow T3 ship with little to no AA - like, say, a stock South Carolina or St. Louis - "play correctly" when confronted with a CV? What exactly do you suggest they do? They can't run. They can't dodge all that well (the South Carolina not at all). They can't shoot down any planes. What's their counter?

Edited by Hermetica
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32 minutes ago, Hermetica said:

The Katori was perhaps a coal ship in the past, but it is not currently a coal ship, at least on NA. And... you linked to a clip of a T6 match. I really don't know how that's relevant.

Anyway, how would you suggest a slow T3 ship with little to no AA - like, say, a stock South Carolina or St. Louis - "play correctly" when confronted with a CV? What exactly do you suggest they do? They can't run. They can't dodge all that well (the South Carolina not at all). They can't shoot down any planes. What's their counter?

Simple... communicate...

Remember those new players I mentioned I recruited?

When we go into a match with a fully AA spec'd Exeter, Yubari, or Kotori, I type in chat: "If you want AA stay next to the AA ship. We're pushing middle and sniping the CV's"...

Amazingly people start cooperating... :)

This is my point: Not even the veterans know how to play WoWs. They assume everything is broken then whine on the forums when their seal-clubbing ship isn't so hot. They didn't have to use teamwork years ago. They could just solo the entire map.That's because they come from a day when they didn't have to think about how to counter subs or CV's.  It was "easy mode farming" in those days, and these players are not adapting as well as I have, that's for sure.

You can't teach an old dog new tricks.

Edited by ElectroVeeDub
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52 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

It's almost like having CVs around is not enjoyable or something. 

That's why I only play Co-op now. Bot CV are no worries, and human sky cancer will never score a single XP point off me again. My Friant and Turrenne sail with ease.

All good. :Smile_teethhappy:

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4 hours ago, Hermetica said:

It was not a CV rant. I have nothing against CVs. I play them myself, albeit infrequently these days because they're so expensive to run. This IS, however, a suggestion that CVs not end up in matches against ships that have literally no way to defend themselves or any other form of counterplay, because that's decidedly not fun for anyone but the CV. And maybe not even the CV, provided they actually enjoy a challenge over shooting fish in a barrel.

 

Honestly? I don't really see how that's much worse. Well, okay, let me amend that: provided they limit it to two CVs per team rather than the current three, I honestly think it's a better situation than the current one. I recognize this could cause MM issues, but protected MM is a thing already, and people manage to live with it. Speaking personally, as a CV captain or as a captain of any other ship type, I'd rather wait five minutes and end up in a weird 4v4 match or whatever than find myself in a game with a CV or three versus ships that can do literally nothing against them.

 

Fair enough. Have a better idea? Because the current situation is a real mess.

Not a rant?

For months and months, cv droped around Christmas last year. Every game and every post sents then has a "suggestion" about how to "improve" the cc. And its ALWAYS how to nerf it. 

Only dofferance between your rant and the earlier ones is your not calling cv players cancer and your destroying the game.

Yep cv hate did more to drive people away than the cv did!!!!

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4 hours ago, Ministre_de_la_Marine said:

That's why I only play Co-op now. Bot CV are no worries, and human sky cancer will never score a single XP point off me again. My Friant and Turrenne sail with ease.

All good. :Smile_teethhappy:

I'm a Co-op main too now. Sky cancer is the disease, PvE is the cure.

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Three CV matches are already common at the moment. In my experience, they're the second most frequent after two CV matches.

The solution is very simple -- drop extra carriers into exclusive 1v1 or 2v2 matches. Problem solved.

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Easy solution - start TT CVs at tier six, where ships actually have some AA to defend themselves with. 

The only other solution I can suggest is to restrict all tiers less than six, to a single CV per side.  3 CVs a side should never be a thing, and especially in  tiers where the majority of ships have no defense against them.

 

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40 minutes ago, ddoubletapp1 said:

 

The only other solution I can suggest is to restrict all tiers less than six, to a single CV per side.  3 CVs a side should never be a thing, and especially in  tiers where the majority of ships have no defense against them.

 

Again, CVs need a makeup of non CV ships in a match to remain balanced.  Having just one CV per match works fine when you have enough non CVs in the queue to match up to each of them.   When this doesn't exist though, the MM adds more than one CV per side to a match to keep wait times down.

We had this discussion a long time ago when CVs were first reworked and there were tons of them in the queue.  The same thing effected T8 etc, lots of matches with more than one CV.  Sub explained that this was due to the sheer number of CVs in the queue and the total make up of the queue.

At that time, if the restricted it to one per side, match making times would have snowballed into 5+ minutes and the MM would have started creating matches with less and less players in them.  8v8, then 7v7, 5v5 etc etc. Extending the max wait time would have diminishing returns and eventually have no positive effect at all.

At the moment, some of the T4 CVs are a bit OP so people are piling into the queue to take advantage of that, creating the same situation.  If that is true, the solution to the problem is not to cover the symptom but resolve the actual problem, balance T4 ships.

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9 hours ago, Hermetica said:

Honestly? I don't really see how that's much worse. Well, okay, let me amend that: provided they limit it to two CVs per team rather than the current three, I honestly think it's a better situation than the current one. I recognize this could cause MM issues, but protected MM is a thing already, and people manage to live with it. Speaking personally, as a CV captain or as a captain of any other ship type, I'd rather wait five minutes and end up in a weird 4v4 match or whatever than find myself in a game with a CV or three versus ships that can do literally nothing against them.

That might be workable but queue dumps would still be a factor.

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This 3 CV per side cancer going on right now is making grinding a new line hell. Especially if the BB you're playing has the worst AA of the whole tier. Gangut is a sitting duck when it comes to Torp drops. Might as well not have AA, and she turns so slow dodging the drop is next to impossible.

Edited by theskull251

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