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tm63au

How Submarines Could Work ( A View From The Side lines )

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Funny had been planning to write a post on my thoughts on how things might work for game play then WG puts out a article on Sub game play, so anyway I will share my thoughts and views about there ideas.

I will break it down into 2 sections one Subs and the other on surface warships then a final overview.

Submarines

Speed

Well WG have decided to give Subs a way faster speed than historical this is a mistake, yes I don't see maybe a 2 or 4 knot increase but nothing over 5, what WG could do is give the Sub a speed boost module that works both under and above surface.

Why a module well firstly it will be considered a gimmick however since we have endured French ships with speed boosts and now a USN Battleship with one there is no going back cant put the gimmick genie back in the bottle.

The speed boost is for a quick getaway and that's all, I cant believe WG would expect a Submarine to rush back to its home cap to defend it from possible capping, defend it with what apart from torpedos it cant fire guns from smoke.

Hydrophones

Now as I understand it Subs wont have this but I'm certain someone will quote if I'm wrong again this is a mistake, how are Subs suppose to detect ships not firing in smoke below periscope depth , blind firing torpedoes, yeah sure DD's do it all the time but this technology was a integral part of Submarine.

Homing Torpedos

Not against them totally but should either be as a module once again or for Premium Submarines, cant see why they should be a normal function when the Halloween model torpedo firing system worked fine.

Snorkels

Don't recall if it was mentioned but I feel this system should be incorporated into the game at high tier ship level.

Spawning

Like I said earlier Submarines will not be any good having over the top speed they cant go back and defend a cap, they should be spawned separate from the main fleet possibly half way up the map to strike at targets moving to engage that subs home fleet.

Sub Match Number Per Game

WG have stated once live Sub numbers will be 2 at the most why when we get 3 DD DIV's which can destroy whole teams, how will 3 Subs be bad.

Surface Warships

ASW Tech/ Weapons  

WG are saying currently Destroyers will only have anti Sub weapons maybe Light Cruisers later, again this is a mistake any ship that historically had ASW equipment should have it including the rare class of BB if necessary there should be no exclusions.

People ask what if a Sub is in game but no DD's well I say the Cruisers have to step up and go kill the Sub.

There is also the chance that a player picks one of the rare DD's not equipped with ASW well that's on the player so its no good complaining after you have spawned only to find a WOLFPACK on the opposing team and you brought in your Torpedo boat, tough luck I say, roll with punches.  

Auto ASW is another mistake why cant we have it work similar to the torpedo system, use button number 4 push once for periscope or twice for deep setting have the reloading of weapons work based on the same principle of torpedo reload time and have a colour scheme around the ship to show what depth setting your ASW is surely it cant be that hard.

Aircraft Carriers should also have auto system that if a Sub is detected bomber air groups fly off and attack subs much like fighter CAP works when CV's are detected also outward bound bombers groups should have the same too if not attacking Subs but detect one hit the button for back up bombers to attack subs while main strike continues to attack surface ships. 

General Thoughts

People have been complaining about how the game is being dumbed down due to mechanics alteration this is the opportunity to get the brain cells working we don't want to much of this auto stuff some yes but not all WG thinks DD's have to much on there plate, you cant have your cake and eat it, you want a game to test your metal or do you want to push the " I win button ".

WG has made some attempts to make random mode more team oriented has it worked yes and no will Subs help possible a little but I feel there will be a lot of good come from Subs firstly the days of the " Bow on campers, Border huggers and islander spammers " is over you do this for to long your going to find yourself sunk.

I give credit where credit is due elite CV players who sit at the back and have the ability to remain untouched shows there class but this will all change, people complain about sky cancer well even these top players will have to keep moving, the days of the back line parker has come to a end if they sit there sending wave after wave of strike aircraft they will find there returning aircraft have no flight decks to land on.

CV's having to keep plotting new courses to avoid Subs means less air strikes, less people complaining about sky cancer.

I have been lately posting about the coming Sub apocalypse with glee but I too play surface ships and look forward to sinking Subs with great delight, I hope WG listens to the community and Subs work in the game fine.

When all is said and done there is a new player in town and the age of Battleships is over HAIL THE NEW KING :Smile_teethhappy:

             

 

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Edited by tm63au
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Funny how surface ships like US BBs are stuck with historical speeds and that is all fine. We start off giving DDs insane, unattainable speeds (i.e. French) and now we will start in on subs....

When this game came out, I liked that there were certain rules you could depend on. BBs shoot every 30 seconds (ish), Heavy Cruisers shoot every 15 seconds (ish except Des Moines to compete with the IJN torps cruisers), and DD guns only really threatened a BB through fires.

Now we have adrenalin rush, reload boosters, and super cruisers with BB size guns and faster reloads. We have dakka dakka cruisers and DDs. In the old days if you were slightly out of position you could time a turn for after the enemy fired. Now they will just pop 3 salvos into your broadside and sent you to port half way through the turn.

Edited by Prothall
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Homing torps should not be on tech tree and especially not on premium ships. Just no. Take them out, leave them out.

Edited by Vekta408
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So we've gone from the 'why can't we have subs' whine, to 'why aren's subs historically accurate' whine.

This is an arcade game that has NEVER embraced historical accuracy with regard to gameplay.

End.

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3 hours ago, tm63au said:

Funny had been planning to write a post on my thoughts on how things might work for game play then WG puts out a article on Sub game play, so anyway I will share my thoughts and views about there ideas.

I will break it down into 2 sections one Subs and the other on surface warships then a final overview.

Submarines

Speed

Well WG have decided to give Subs a way faster speed than historical this is a mistake, yes I don't see maybe a 2 or 4 knot increase but nothing over 5, what WG could do is give the Sub a speed boost module that works both under and above surface.

Why a module well firstly it will be considered a gimmick however since we have endured French ships with speed boosts and now a USN Battleship with one there is no going back cant put the gimmick genie back in the bottle.

The speed boost is for a quick getaway and that's all, I cant believe WG would expect a Submarine to rush back to its home cap to defend it from possible capping, defend it with what apart from torpedos it cant fire guns from smoke.

Hydrophones

Now as I understand it Subs wont have this but I'm certain someone will quote if I'm wrong again this is a mistake, how are Subs suppose to detect ships not firing in smoke below periscope depth , blind firing torpedoes, yeah sure DD's do it all the time but this technology was a integral part of Submarine.

Homing Torpedos

Not against them totally but should either be as a module once again or for Premium Submarines, cant see why they should be a normal function when the Halloween model torpedo firing system worked fine.

Snorkels

Don't recall if it was mentioned but I feel this system should be incorporated into the game at high tier ship level.

Spawning

Like I said earlier Submarines will not be any good having over the top speed they cant go back and defend a cap, they should be spawned separate from the main fleet possibly half way up the map to strike at targets moving to engage that subs home fleet.

Sub Match Number Per Game

WG have stated once live Sub numbers will be 2 at the most why when we get 3 DD DIV's which can destroy whole teams, how will 3 Subs be bad.

Surface Warships

ASW Tech/ Weapons  

WG are saying currently Destroyers will only have anti Sub weapons maybe Light Cruisers later, again this is a mistake any ship that historically had ASW equipment should have it including the rare class of BB if necessary there should be no exclusions.

People ask what if a Sub is in game but no DD's well I say the Cruisers have to step up and go kill the Sub.

There is also the chance that a player picks one of the rare DD's not equipped with ASW well that's on the player so its no good complaining after you have spawned only to find a WOLFPACK on the opposing team and you brought in your Torpedo boat, tough luck I say, roll with punches.  

Auto ASW is another mistake why cant we have it work similar to the torpedo system, use button number 4 push once for periscope or twice for deep setting have the reloading of weapons work based on the same principle of torpedo reload time and have a colour scheme around the ship to show what depth setting your ASW is surely it cant be that hard.

Aircraft Carriers should also have auto system that if a Sub is detected bomber air groups fly off and attack subs much like fighter CAP works when CV's are detected also outward bound bombers groups should have the same too if not attacking Subs but detect one hit the button for back up bombers to attack subs while main strike continues to attack surface ships. 

General Thoughts

People have been complaining about how the game is being dumbed down due to mechanics alteration this is the opportunity to get the brain cells working we don't want to much of this auto stuff some yes but not all WG thinks DD's have to much on there plate, you cant have your cake and eat it, you want a game to test your metal or do you want to push the " I win button ".

WG has made some attempts to make random mode more team oriented has it worked yes and no will Subs help possible a little but I feel there will be a lot of good come from Subs firstly the days of the " Bow on campers, Border huggers and islander spammers " is over you do this for to long your going to find yourself sunk.

I give credit where credit is due elite CV players who sit at the back and have the ability to remain untouched shows there class but this will all change, people complain about sky cancer well even these top players will have to keep moving, the days of the back line parker has come to a end if they sit there sending wave after wave of strike aircraft they will find there returning aircraft have no flight decks to land on.

CV's having to keep plotting new courses to avoid Subs means less air strikes, less people complaining about sky cancer.

I have been lately posting about the coming Sub apocalypse with glee but I too play surface ships and look forward to sinking Subs with great delight, I hope WG listens to the community and Subs work in the game fine.

When all is said and done there is a new player in town and the age of Battleships is over HAIL THE NEW KING :Smile_teethhappy:

             

 

   Image result for das boot gifs

 

                   

Not that you're at all wrong, but the whole discussion in pretty pointless. There is absolutely nothing besides the graphics models in WG's implementation of submarines and ASW that in any way, shape, or form even remotely resemble technical or historical reality. This is by design, because this is a shooty-bote arcade game, not a simulation.

One can reasonably expect ever-sillier and goofier content and mechanics in pursuit of the low-attention-span twitchy market. The CV Rebork was just the tip of the Kandy Krush-Whack-a-Mole iceberg. This is apparently their business model now, so why bother with the minutiea?

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39 minutes ago, mohawkdriver said:

So we've gone from the 'why can't we have subs' whine, to 'why aren's subs historically accurate' whine.

This is an arcade game that has NEVER embraced historical accuracy with regard to gameplay.

End.

Well  I agree that it is a  arcade game and most of what I am suggesting is still arcade style traits, I am just suggesting WG tone them down.

My views were never about a making Subs full on historical or total arcade but I believe WG can find middle ground if they put the minds to it, the question was would they sadly it seems not.

Modules by definition are Gimmicks even the most basic we have in game so its already at semi arcade level even with out the extreme ones like speed boost.

But I would much rather a Sub spawning closer to a enemy cap with a reasonable level of speed say just above its historical number than one spawning at home base and then moving at 30 knots alongside a cruiser to other end of the map.

Give the speed boost module 2 maybe 3 activations for a player that need to needs to escape a tight situation if he can.

There are those that want history level speed and also for it  to be at home base spawn area, if that was  the case the Sub might as well try to not even head for enemy base.

My ideas are for a middle ground, I know they wont get implemented WG has already set out its thought pattern for the ships for now but maybe they may change later.

Doesn't hurt for the community to throw ideas around now.        

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Nothing says a team has to start roughly in a line.  Make sub spawns much further forward of the rest of the team.  Then they could have historical speeds and still be in the thick of it.  They should also make sub view range really low, even when fully floated, so they aren’t perma spotting caps from the start.  The view range should be their torp range, so a sub with 8km torps wouldn't spot a 15km concealment BB until it was within that 8km view range.

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1 hour ago, tm63au said:

Well  I agree that it is a  arcade game and most of what I am suggesting is still arcade style traits, I am just suggesting WG tone them down.

My views were never about a making Subs full on historical or total arcade but I believe WG can find middle ground if they put the minds to it, the question was would they sadly it seems not.

Modules by definition are Gimmicks even the most basic we have in game so its already at semi arcade level even with out the extreme ones like speed boost.

But I would much rather a Sub spawning closer to a enemy cap with a reasonable level of speed say just above its historical number than one spawning at home base and then moving at 30 knots alongside a cruiser to other end of the map.

Give the speed boost module 2 maybe 3 activations for a player that need to needs to escape a tight situation if he can.

There are those that want history level speed and also for it  to be at home base spawn area, if that was  the case the Sub might as well try to not even head for enemy base.

My ideas are for a middle ground, I know they wont get implemented WG has already set out its thought pattern for the ships for now but maybe they may change later.

Doesn't hurt for the community to throw ideas around now.        

They've already stated what subs are going to start with. The only thing left to do is to repeatedly tell them to at least leave out the worst parts of this. They are going to shove the rest of it down our throats regardless.

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On 9/14/2019 at 7:48 AM, tm63au said:

Well  I agree that it is a  arcade game and most of what I am suggesting is still arcade style traits, I am just suggesting WG tone them down.

My views were never about a making Subs full on historical or total arcade but I believe WG can find middle ground if they put the minds to it, the question was would they sadly it seems not.

Modules by definition are Gimmicks even the most basic we have in game so its already at semi arcade level even with out the extreme ones like speed boost.

But I would much rather a Sub spawning closer to a enemy cap with a reasonable level of speed say just above its historical number than one spawning at home base and then moving at 30 knots alongside a cruiser to other end of the map.

Give the speed boost module 2 maybe 3 activations for a player that need to needs to escape a tight situation if he can.

There are those that want history level speed and also for it  to be at home base spawn area, if that was  the case the Sub might as well try to not even head for enemy base.

My ideas are for a middle ground, I know they wont get implemented WG has already set out its thought pattern for the ships for now but maybe they may change later.

Doesn't hurt for the community to throw ideas around now.        

Well, let's get them in the game first, and then see where we can improve.  

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On 9/14/2019 at 6:51 AM, tm63au said:

Funny had been planning to write a post on my thoughts on how things might work for game play then WG puts out a article on Sub game play, so anyway I will share my thoughts and views about there ideas.

I will break it down into 2 sections one Subs and the other on surface warships then a final overview.

Submarines

Speed

Well WG have decided to give Subs a way faster speed than historical this is a mistake, yes I don't see maybe a 2 or 4 knot increase but nothing over 5, what WG could do is give the Sub a speed boost module that works both under and above surface.

Why a module well firstly it will be considered a gimmick however since we have endured French ships with speed boosts and now a USN Battleship with one there is no going back cant put the gimmick genie back in the bottle.

The speed boost is for a quick getaway and that's all, I cant believe WG would expect a Submarine to rush back to its home cap to defend it from possible capping, defend it with what apart from torpedos it cant fire guns from smoke.

Hydrophones

Now as I understand it Subs wont have this but I'm certain someone will quote if I'm wrong again this is a mistake, how are Subs suppose to detect ships not firing in smoke below periscope depth , blind firing torpedoes, yeah sure DD's do it all the time but this technology was a integral part of Submarine.

Homing Torpedos

Not against them totally but should either be as a module once again or for Premium Submarines, cant see why they should be a normal function when the Halloween model torpedo firing system worked fine.

Snorkels

Don't recall if it was mentioned but I feel this system should be incorporated into the game at high tier ship level.

Spawning

Like I said earlier Submarines will not be any good having over the top speed they cant go back and defend a cap, they should be spawned separate from the main fleet possibly half way up the map to strike at targets moving to engage that subs home fleet.

Sub Match Number Per Game

WG have stated once live Sub numbers will be 2 at the most why when we get 3 DD DIV's which can destroy whole teams, how will 3 Subs be bad.

Surface Warships

ASW Tech/ Weapons  

WG are saying currently Destroyers will only have anti Sub weapons maybe Light Cruisers later, again this is a mistake any ship that historically had ASW equipment should have it including the rare class of BB if necessary there should be no exclusions.

People ask what if a Sub is in game but no DD's well I say the Cruisers have to step up and go kill the Sub.

There is also the chance that a player picks one of the rare DD's not equipped with ASW well that's on the player so its no good complaining after you have spawned only to find a WOLFPACK on the opposing team and you brought in your Torpedo boat, tough luck I say, roll with punches.  

Auto ASW is another mistake why cant we have it work similar to the torpedo system, use button number 4 push once for periscope or twice for deep setting have the reloading of weapons work based on the same principle of torpedo reload time and have a colour scheme around the ship to show what depth setting your ASW is surely it cant be that hard.

Aircraft Carriers should also have auto system that if a Sub is detected bomber air groups fly off and attack subs much like fighter CAP works when CV's are detected also outward bound bombers groups should have the same too if not attacking Subs but detect one hit the button for back up bombers to attack subs while main strike continues to attack surface ships. 

General Thoughts

People have been complaining about how the game is being dumbed down due to mechanics alteration this is the opportunity to get the brain cells working we don't want to much of this auto stuff some yes but not all WG thinks DD's have to much on there plate, you cant have your cake and eat it, you want a game to test your metal or do you want to push the " I win button ".

WG has made some attempts to make random mode more team oriented has it worked yes and no will Subs help possible a little but I feel there will be a lot of good come from Subs firstly the days of the " Bow on campers, Border huggers and islander spammers " is over you do this for to long your going to find yourself sunk.

I give credit where credit is due elite CV players who sit at the back and have the ability to remain untouched shows there class but this will all change, people complain about sky cancer well even these top players will have to keep moving, the days of the back line parker has come to a end if they sit there sending wave after wave of strike aircraft they will find there returning aircraft have no flight decks to land on.

CV's having to keep plotting new courses to avoid Subs means less air strikes, less people complaining about sky cancer.

I have been lately posting about the coming Sub apocalypse with glee but I too play surface ships and look forward to sinking Subs with great delight, I hope WG listens to the community and Subs work in the game fine.

When all is said and done there is a new player in town and the age of Battleships is over HAIL THE NEW KING :Smile_teethhappy:

None of this addresses my concerns.

1.  Counter Play.  It has been a pretty consistent position in the game that ships need to have a counter play option.  OWSF was eliminated mostly because there was little counter play that could be taken by the target.

2.  Caps.  There are plenty of maps that its hard enough to clear out a cap when facing a ship with a 5.4km to 6km concealment.  Are subs going to be able to contest caps submerged, immune to the effects of hydro/radar?  Isnt that going to slow the pace of games down more?  How annoying is it going to be that subs can cross caps submerged, go to PD to spot and attack DDs trying to cap or torp islands where the enemy is using as cover when not much can be done to attack them as you need to reveal yourself to attack them bringing down focus fire on you?  

3.  The radar delay.  A DD gets radar detected has 6 seconds before the enemy team can focus fire him.  This has the effect that most DDs take damage as they run away.  Radar detected subs can submerge before even a ship like a DM can get a second shot off.  If subs can contest caps that is going to be a large meta shift in the game.  Subs are likely far more survive able than DDs in this role even with the limited HP pools because they are much sneakier and escape diving to safety is a few seconds away.

4.  Killing subs appears to be a protracted hunt keeping them submerged till their O2 runs out.  During this time you have to dodge torps, damage from enemies when spotted by the sub, or even just getting close enough to DC the sub is likely suicide distance if the sub positions in front of support.  I'm not sure there are enough ways to detect and attack subs even at ranges outside a few kilometers currently.  This lack of ranged threats give the sub a large amount of offensive opportunity, I fear its going to be too hard to hunt these ships down compared to surface ships.  I'm not wild about how much RNG goes into attacking submerged ships while the sub can conduct manual attacks.

5.  Sub launches below PD.  Is this going to be permitted.  Many skilled DD players can conduct beyond visual range torp attacks during limited view range periods.  If the torps reload fast enough their is little risk in spamming torps while remaining completely undetected, relying on tracking ships on the mini map for targeting information.

6.  I dislike automation attacks.  AA is one thing, you are attacking planes, not a ship.  Here you will have entire engagements done without one player having no input beyond sailing over the target.  I dont think thats a good direction to take a game as it removes most of the skill from the fight.

I keep coming up with more the more I think about what this is likely to look like in the game.  

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On 9/14/2019 at 11:27 AM, FrodoFraggin said:

Nothing says a team has to start roughly in a line.  Make sub spawns much further forward of the rest of the team.  Then they could have historical speeds and still be in the thick of it.  They should also make sub view range really low, even when fully floated, so they aren’t perma spotting caps from the start.  The view range should be their torp range, so a sub with 8km torps wouldn't spot a 15km concealment BB until it was within that 8km view range.

Subs cannot, cannot have historical speed.  Think about how frustrating it would be to push a flank, nothing is there or the enemy kites that flank all game.  No damage game at no fault of your own.  You just are not fast enough to re position.  Another issue is getting caught by a push.  Ok you can submerge, but with limited speed you can only get a couple attacks off before the enemy either bypasses you forcing you to chase (no damage) or you run out of O2 and are blasted off the surface in seconds.

I have concerns about subs in the game, but even I see the need for speed to be adequate for game play purposes.

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6 hours ago, Destroyer_KuroshioKai said:

Subs cannot, cannot have historical speed.  Think about how frustrating it would be to push a flank, nothing is there or the enemy kites that flank all game.  No damage game at no fault of your own.  You just are not fast enough to re position.  Another issue is getting caught by a push.  Ok you can submerge, but with limited speed you can only get a couple attacks off before the enemy either bypasses you forcing you to chase (no damage) or you run out of O2 and are blasted off the surface in seconds.

I have concerns about subs in the game, but even I see the need for speed to be adequate for game play purposes.

I'm glad to see someone thinking logically on this speed issue. +1

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