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Hermetica

Karma system: why does this even exist?

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As the subject says, why is this even a thing? It doesn't actually do anything, and it mainly just seems to be a way for people to report others for their own shortcomings or give out karma because they want to use their daily limit. Seriously, I can think of exactly two times I've ever lost karma over something I actually did, and the other dozens of times it's been me daring to play a CV once in a while, or failing to carry my entire team, or eating someone else's torps because they fired them at close range from behind me and got angry that I "turned them pink", etc. Meanwhile, my positive gains have been equally spurious - I mean, I appreciate people giving out karma in their last match or whatever, but it's pretty rare that it seems to correlate with anything in particular I've done.

Maybe I'm missing something, though? I hadn't come back to the game when they introduced this, so maybe there's a point to it that I just don't get? Did WG ever state their intention behind it? If not, though... maybe it should just be gotten rid of entirely if it doesn't actually serve any purpose?

Edited by Hermetica
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3 minutes ago, Hermetica said:

As the subject says, why is this even a thing? It doesn't actually do anything, and it mainly just seems to be a way for people to report others for their own shortcomings or give out karma because they want to use their daily limit. Seriously, I can think of exactly two times I've ever lost karma something I actually did, and the other dozens of times it's been me daring to play a CV once in a while, or failing to carry my entire team, or eating someone else's torps because they fired them at close range from behind me and got angry that I "turned them pink", etc. Meanwhile, my positive gains have been equally spurious - I mean, I appreciate people giving out karma in their last match or whatever, but it's pretty rare that it seems to correlate with anything in particular I've done.

Maybe I'm missing something, though? I hadn't come back to the game when they introduced this, so maybe there's a point to it that I just don't get? Did WG ever state their intention behind it? If not, though... maybe it should just be gotten rid of entirely if it doesn't actually serve any purpose?

It is best to quote @Radar_X (who was and is no longer at WG). (Emphasis is mine):

"As many of you point out, the Karma system really doesn't have a significant impact on gameplay, matchmaking, or really anything outside of a general metric you can personally view.

Why Karma is important at least from the positive points is it allows you to compliment someone who went above and beyond.  We've all had games we played where someone did something heroic, self-sacrificing, or generally not what we'd expect in terms of teamwork and play.  Giving those people that positive karma reinforces that type of play and encourages it in the future."

 

Edited by henrychenhenry
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1 minute ago, henrychenhenry said:

It is best to quote @Radar_X (who was and is no longer at WG). (Emphasis is mine):

"As many of you point out, the Karma system really doesn't have a significant impact on gameplay, matchmaking, or really anything outside of a general metric you can personally view.

Why Karma is important at least from the positive points is it allows you to compliment someone who went above and beyond.  We've all had games we played where someone did something heroic, self-sacrificing, or generally not what we'd expect in terms of teamwork and play.  Giving those people that positive karma reinforces that type of play and encourages it in the future."

 

Hm. Fair enough, I suppose. But if the point of it is just supposed to be positive reinforcement, why bother connecting it to the reporting system? Honestly, I'm of the opinion that reporting someone should be restricted to actual exploits, cheating, abuses, etc. that actually get attention from the devs, and this game has always seemed weird in the fact that reporting appears to be almost entirely peer-based. And, let's face it, there are a LOT of toxic players out there who will happily abuse the crap out of this system... more than there are people who are willing to hand it out, at least. Or so it goes in my experience.

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1 minute ago, Hermetica said:

Hm. Fair enough, I suppose. But if the point of it is just supposed to be positive reinforcement, why bother connecting it to the reporting system? Honestly, I'm of the opinion that reporting someone should be restricted to actual exploits, cheating, abuses, etc. that actually get attention from the devs, and this game has always seemed weird in the fact that reporting appears to be almost entirely peer-based. And, let's face it, there are a LOT of toxic players out there who will happily abuse the crap out of this system... more than there are people who are willing to hand it out, at least. Or so it goes in my experience.

That, I cannot answer with an official response.

My suspicion is that the reporting system allows venting, which takes stress off of the ticket system. (I believe @Kami once said something similar.)

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4 minutes ago, henrychenhenry said:

That, I cannot answer with an official response.

My suspicion is that the reporting system allows venting, which takes stress off of the ticket system. (I believe @Kami once said something similar.)

Probably.

@Hermetica

Just on the off chance you were unaware of such; what a higher karma does do is give you more compliments to hand out every day.

Of course, it also gives griefers more reports.

Starting out it’s seven compliments, and seven reports, even if someone’s karma is zero.

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28 minutes ago, Hermetica said:

why is this even a thing?

What difference does it make to someone has ZERO battles fought but over a dozen alt accounts?

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The issue with Karma is that it's abused more to grief people than it's used to compliment them.

People rarely notice when you have a good game, nor do they even care. As long as they win and they didn't notice you doing something they disagree with, they won't give good Karma usually. But if anything goes wrong, they are spamming those report buttons fast as can be.

They're both defunct systems that punish innocent people more than the guilty. Remove Karma and the ability to report.

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18 minutes ago, CAPTMUDDXX said:

What difference does it make to someone has ZERO battles fought but over a dozen alt accounts?

Huh? I don't follow. Unless you're saying those are the people who abuse it and don't care, in which case, yeah. That's true.

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50 minutes ago, Hermetica said:

Radar_X:

Why Karma is important at least from the positive points is it allows you to compliment someone who went above and beyond.  We've all had games we played where someone did something heroic, self-sacrificing, or generally not what we'd expect in terms of teamwork and play.  Giving those people that positive karma reinforces that type of play and encourages it in the future."

This is a seriously mixed message when you allow people to trivially take away that compliment for whatever reason.

There should be one field for reports and one field for Karma because LOSING that karma for unknown reasons feels crappy too. It encourages people to troll others and report to rip karma away.

So which is it? Important or not?

Edited by xalmgrey
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2 minutes ago, xalmgrey said:

This is a seriously mixed message when you allow people to trivially take away that compliment for whatever reason.

There should be one field for reports and one field for Karma because LOSING that karma for unknown reasons feels crappy too. It encourages people to troll others and report to rip karma away.

So which is it? Important or not?

This is my feeling on it. My most recent loss of karma came from a "plays poorly" report when I finished at the top of the scoreboard with multiple achievements but wasn't able to carry my team in the end, and that... that sucks. Bonus points for the person who reported me telling me how useless I was throughout the entire game. I mean, yes, I get it has no real purpose, but if it's that easy to undermine, what's the point of having it in the first place? If the point is positive reinforcement, why not just have the complimenting? People rarely compliment anyway, and it'd remove a tool of trolls. I would gladly give up the ability to vent and report people for being a [edited] if it meant people who were abusing were losing it as well.

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Just now, Hermetica said:

This is my feeling on it. My most recent loss of karma came from a "plays poorly" report when I finished at the top of the scoreboard with multiple achievements but wasn't able to carry my team in the end, and that... that sucks. Bonus points for the person who reported me telling me how useless I was throughout the entire game. I mean, yes, I get it has no real purpose, but if it's that easy to undermine, what's the point of having it in the first place? If the point is positive reinforcement, why not just have the complimenting? People rarely compliment anyway, and it'd remove a tool of trolls. I would gladly give up the ability to vent and report people for being a [edited] if it meant people who were abusing were losing it as well.

I've looked everywhere and i don't even see a feature that shows you've been reported. How do you know you got that report exactly? Would be nice if they added a separate field so we could see this readily.

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Just now, xalmgrey said:

I've looked everywhere and i don't even see a feature that shows you've been reported. How do you know you got that report exactly? Would be nice if they added a separate field so we could see this readily.

If someone tells you that you're useless all match and then your karma goes down once the match ends and reports are calculated, you've been reported. Checking before and after karma amounts seems to be the only way to monitor it.

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Just now, Hermetica said:

If someone tells you that you're useless all match and then your karma goes down once the match ends and reports are calculated, you've been reported. Checking before and after karma amounts seems to be the only way to monitor it.

Ahhh got ya. That's the only way i can tell as well.

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2 minutes ago, xalmgrey said:

I've looked everywhere and i don't even see a feature that shows you've been reported. How do you know you got that report exactly? Would be nice if they added a separate field so we could see this readily.

 

Just now, Hermetica said:

If someone tells you that you're useless all match and then your karma goes down once the match ends and reports are calculated, you've been reported. Checking before and after karma amounts seems to be the only way to monitor it.

I think I answer this question everytime it arises. Unless something has changed recently, this is how it works.

In your "notification" pop up window itll show reports. It requires 2 reports from 2 players in a single game. 1 report will not notify.

Compliments all ways show up in that notification. 1 or however many. 

Unless something has changed. That is where youll see it, but again it requires 2 reports in 1 game.

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Just now, Octavian_of_Roma said:

 

I think I answer this question everytime it arises. Unless something has changed recently, this is how it works.

In your "notification" pop up window itll show reports. It requires 2 reports from 2 players in a single game. 1 report will not notify.

Compliments all ways show up in that notification. 1 or however many. 

Unless something has changed. That is where youll see it, but again it requires 2 reports in 1 game.

I think it may have changed, because I've never seen a notification for being reported, even in games where I'm certain I've received multiple reports. I do get karma notifications every time someone compliments me, though.

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Just now, Octavian_of_Roma said:

 

I think I answer this question everytime it arises. Unless something has changed recently, this is how it works.

In your "notification" pop up window itll show reports. It requires 2 reports from 2 players in a single game. 1 report will not notify.

Compliments all ways show up in that notification. 1 or however many. 

Unless something has changed. That is where youll see it, but again it requires 2 reports in 1 game.

Thanks for the info. Never seen a report pop up like that so i assume i've never gotten more than one report.

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This has been discussed quite a bit and generally the consensus is that the system is working as intended. The belief is that the negative karma button is intended to allow people to complain about another captain without tying up customer service on a minor complaint: bad play, afk, etc. If it's something more serious then they'll likely file a complaint with customer service regardless. 

Karma goes up and down almost at random so don't worry about it; it literally has no effect on anything. Since it was mentioned if you're reported by multiple players in a single match you get notified but if you only get one negative then you're not. Obviously positive karma regardless of the amount notifies you immediately. 

 

Karma - meme

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5 minutes ago, Hermetica said:

I think it may have changed, because I've never seen a notification for being reported, even in games where I'm certain I've received multiple reports. I do get karma notifications every time someone compliments me, though.

 

5 minutes ago, xalmgrey said:

Thanks for the info. Never seen a report pop up like that so i assume i've never gotten more than one report.

It is possible it changed. @CAPTMUDDXX, says it operated differently in a recent thread. Oddly enough the mod never bothered to verify which way it worked when he posted in that thread.

edit: Ill test it when I get home tonight. Ill check my karma, and then ask people in-game to report me. 

Edited by Octavian_of_Roma

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1 hour ago, Hermetica said:

But if the point of it is just supposed to be positive reinforcement, why bother connecting it to the reporting system?

Just because you can do both in the same area doesn't mean that they are part of the same system, one is reporting, one is complimenting, two totally different things. If it is meaningless then why get rid of it it does no harm if it is meaningless, any way no big deal. Mine is 97 by the way for what that matters. To some it's a placebo.

Edited by Sovereigndawg

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2 minutes ago, Sovereigndawg said:

Just because you can do both in the same area doesn't mean that they are part of the same system, one is reporting, one is complimenting, two totally different things. If it is meaningless then why get rid of it it does no harm if it is meaningless, any way no big deal. Mine is 97 by the way for what that matters. To some it's a placebo.

They both affect your karma, though. They are part of the same system - the karma system.

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11 minutes ago, Octavian_of_Roma said:

Ill check my karma, and then ask people in-game to report me.

Don't do that. I have submitted a ticket to CS. I expect a reply within 12 hours.

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35 minutes ago, Hermetica said:

Huh? I don't follow.

You are the one with zero battles under this name and only 66 battles under one of the more than a dozen Hermetica names listed under players. So what difference does Karma make to you?

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45 minutes ago, ElectroVeeDub said:

The issue with Karma is that it's abused more to grief people than it's used to compliment them.

People rarely notice when you have a good game, nor do they even care. As long as they win and they didn't notice you doing something they disagree with, they won't give good Karma usually. But if anything goes wrong, they are spamming those report buttons fast as can be.

They're both defunct systems that punish innocent people more than the guilty. Remove Karma and the ability to report.

Or you just get reported for daring to play something someone does not like, like a carrier.

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2 minutes ago, henrychenhenry said:

Don't do that. I have submitted a ticket to CS. I expect a reply within 12 hours.

:Smile_teethhappy:

It doesnt matter to me, karma is irrelevant to me; and now Im just curious. Only reason Id need it is for the Universal Social Credit Rating. 

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