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Friesland AA too overpowered?

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Hi. I bought the Friesland over the weekend and so far I quite enjoy it. I just wanted to know peoples opinions on the AA Defense, it has 83 air defense which is better than some tier X battleships. I know they are still testing it, but I just wanted to know if people think it's too powerful. 

 

Edited by Jakey_face
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It is about time we had a DD that could hold its own against a CV that is not a t10, I like the AA of course, and now I do not worry about the CV spotting me as they tend to stay away after several squads are knocked out.

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10 minutes ago, Jakey_face said:

Hi. I bought the Friesland over the weekend and so far I quite enjoy it. I just wanted to know peoples opinions on the AA Defense, it has 83 air defense which is better than some tier X battleships. I know they are still testing it, but I just wanted to know if people think it's too powerful. 

 

If it was a standard destroyer then maybe. But all it has going for it is the guns and the AA. I think it's fair that as a torpless DD it gets basically a "you shall not pass" card for CVs.

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Think of it this way. For every CV that finds a DD with crappy AA and makes it suffer, you make a CV that bumps into you to suffer. :cap_like:

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To be honest it's AA is still broken. CVS rarely get to engage it without losing most planes, even late game. 

Worse if it's doing it's daka daka from smoke.  

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22 minutes ago, CriMiNaL__ said:

It is about time we had a DD that could hold its own against a CV that is not a t10, I like the AA of course, and now I do not worry about the CV spotting me as they tend to stay away after several squads are knocked out.

I would argue Kidd is a deadlier opponent to CVs. You can face tier VI CVs which can turn out disgusting and have the heal that's a giant middle finger to CV damage.

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I don't see any problem with a DD that has good AA from a game balance standpoint.  I think its a real shame the other good AA DDs had their AA gutted in the last patch.  Sims, Kidd, Gearing, and Groz used to be capable of defending themselves.  Groz for example had its average DPS cut by more than half.

Edited by Slimeball91

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56 minutes ago, Jakey_face said:

Hi. I bought the Friesland over the weekend and so far I quite enjoy it. I just wanted to know peoples opinions on the AA Defense, it has 83 air defense which is better than some tier X battleships. I know they are still testing it, but I just wanted to know if people think it's too powerful. 

 

"Too overpowered" is like saying "jumbo shrimp".  It's an oxymoron.  It's either overpowered or it isn't.

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30 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

Think of it this way. For every CV that finds a DD with crappy AA and makes it suffer, you make a CV that bumps into you to suffer. :cap_like:

That bumping into is the problem since a DD with its AA off is like a needle in a haystack.

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4 minutes ago, Crucis said:

"Too overpowered" is like saying "jumbo shrimp".  It's an oxymoron.  It's either overpowered or it isn't.

My mistake, do you think it is overpowered?

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4 minutes ago, Jakey_face said:

My mistake, do you think it is overpowered?

Absolutely.

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18 minutes ago, Crucis said:

"Too overpowered" is like saying "jumbo shrimp".  It's an oxymoron.  It's either overpowered or it isn't.

Jumbo shrimp is not an oxymoron because shrimp in this case is referring to a crustacean, not something small. 

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5 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

Jumbo shrimp is not an oxymoron because shrimp in this case is referring to a crustacean, not something small. 

You're wrong.  Jumbo shrimp is the go to example of an oxymoron.

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My only issue with Friesland's AA power is that it's on a premium vessel.

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32 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

That bumping into is the problem since a DD with its AA off is like a needle in a haystack.

What I can tell you from hundreds of Kidd battles is the following regarding CV behavior.

First of all, most CVs are relatively logical in dealing with AA DDs. They send a rocket squad out to check along the usual DD routes towards caps. Now, if they happen to pick the wrong curtain that has the AA DD behind it, the squad gets wiped and now they know to leave you in peace, at least for a time. They may attack late game if you are approaching them or you are low HP enough, but most of the time they leave you alone. Of course there are also the ones that want to get you and end up running with half squads by the 5 minute mark. Now, I'm not saying that a CV won't get you eventually, just that most of the time you aren't worth the hassle.

Last, AA DDs, at least the premium ones, sacrifice something for this ability. Kidd loses a tube, Friesland doesn't have any to begin with. 

 

2 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

My only issue with Friesland's AA power is that it's on a premium vessel.

As of now, and correct me if im wrong, but the only relatively decent tech tree AA DDs are Gearing and Grozovoi, yes?

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3 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

My only issue with Friesland's AA power is that it's on a premium vessel.

You think everyone should have as good AA or..?

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Just now, xalmgrey said:

You think everyone should have as good AA or..?

No, I'm very conscious about how the pay-wall in World of Warships locks out certain traits / play-styles.  For example, there aren't any tech tree ships with crawling smoke.  If you want that feature, open your wallets.  I'm similarly weary of the "best" ship at a given role being locked behind a pay wall.

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Guns and AA are pretty much all the Freisland has though. Yeah, AA at high tiers is overtuned right now but probably better places to start than going after a DD that doesn't have much else going for it.

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46 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

As of now, and correct me if im wrong, but the only relatively decent tech tree AA DDs are Gearing and Grozovoi, yes?

As I said earlier Gearing, Groz and other DDs had their AA gutted in the last patch.  Priority sector DPS buff going from a max of 180% for DDs cut to 135%, and DFAA that gave DD AA teeth was gutted, was plus 200% DPS down to 50%.  This was a massive nerf to these ships.

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2 hours ago, Jakey_face said:

it has 83 air defense which is better than some tier X battleships.

2098538609_AAratingRas.thumb.png.beab1278ab119cce820e5634d646ee2a.png

 

Seriously, people always mention this - it's a bull number. it has 0 actual bearing on how good the actual AA of a ship is. You could say the AA rating is ZQJHGF*#$( and it'd mean just as much. Wish Wargaming would just remove it especially with the number of threads in the past that have said "I have a 85, 90, 100 AA rating why are planes even able to get near me".

Her Flak battery goes out to just over 5 km, and has a continuous DPS of 122, while the 40 mm guns go just over 3.5 and add another 164. This means at 3.5 km any planes are taking about 286 damage every second before you add in any other skill or upgrade. Assuming I have the right numbers for everything - an air group spends 4 seconds in the outer AA ring at 122 damage, and 9 seconds at 286 damage with 0 flak bursts hitting at all. That's 122*4 + 286*9 = 3062 damage by the time a group flies over the ship. Some of the lowest it sees are 1300 hp and change, we'll call it 1400, and the toughest 2100 - meaning it can take out 1-2 stock planes when it itself is stock even if a CV player flawlessly dodges flak. But that is one way, shooting through the other side would be the same damage again and if you have to fly back out to about 3.5 anyway to set up another attack run, well, that's about 9 seconds and another plane or so.

Obviously, there are variables - planes can go faster or slower (I used a 145 knot average in my math), flak bursts can make a big difference, there are all the things that add to AA damage and all the things that increase plane HP and 'armour' that reduces damage some, etc. If it had shorter range AA, but still that number, it would be less impressive. 

And to prove my point on AA rating, my FDG has a rating of 83 with a 19 point secondary captain in it, and while I don't know if Frieslands 83 rating is stock - I doubt it boosts up to the 189 and 490 that my FDG, with the same rating, has alone for the 5.1 km and 3.5 km guns (679 total within 3.5 km) - and that's leaving out an additional 85 DPS within 2 km to hit over 700 damage per second. FDG, same numbers beyond DPS, 6867 damage in the same time frame, call it an even 7k maybe if we add the 20 mm guns damage. same rating likely double the damage if the 83 rating Friesland has higher DPS than base wiki numbers. Meaning double/triple the planes taken out at the same rating. 

 

I attacked a Friesland today, not knowing it's full AA capability. Caught off guard it did a lot, however, adjusting to it having better than anticipated AA it's AA is good, but far from OP, it may even be that the one I attacked used DFAA on the first pass. But it's not like Fletcher and Gearing I routinely see inflicting 80-100% losses on tier 8 CV's. 

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2 hours ago, Jakey_face said:

My mistake, do you think it is overpowered?

Its AAA? Definitely not.

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3 hours ago, Jakey_face said:

Hi. I bought the Friesland over the weekend and so far I quite enjoy it. I just wanted to know peoples opinions on the AA Defense, it has 83 air defense which is better than some tier X battleships. I know they are still testing it, but I just wanted to know if people think it's too powerful. 

 

It's powerful if you can play to its strengths, but I wouldn't call it too powerful. CVs can attack it, they just can't linger in its air envelope and they have to be willing to accept plane losses to do it. The hardest part with the ship is its detection is so low you are at risk of blundering into it without knowing it is there. That's where you usually lose a lot of planes. It is basically the same issue with other AA DDs or AA CLs that have lower detection ranges than their AA ranges (Smolensk etc.).  If I know one is out there I either send some planes home to reduce the squadron and send the remainder out to pinpoint where the Friesland is and take the losses, or wait for another ship to identify where it is. It isn't that quick and it tends to fight from behind islands or in a smokescreen which requires it to be stationary a lot. It isn't like Mogador where it can pop up anywhere really fast. Once you know where it is in general you either avoid it or wait for a good time to hit it. 

I either wait for the player to get occupied firing at something else or to sail too close to an island and then it send some planes in to chunk some health off of it. You can slingshot in to hit it and bypass most of the AA or have rocket planes use their boost to minimize the damage, or use islands to shield your planes from the AA. YOu'll lose some planes but as long as you chunk some of his health off and don't lose too much of a squadron doing it, it's a good trade.  If it smokes up all you can do is go somewhere else wait it out or call on a teammate with a radar to pinpoint it. 

It is a bit nastier than other AA boats because it is so small but it isn't overpowered. It's a Smolensk in a DD package with no citadel and no torpedoes. It has two things  that it is really good at (gunboating and AA) and it is quite good at those things. 

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