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Hapa_Fodder

Tier IX and X and almost VIII losing their "Fun Factor."

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Over the past couple updates I have noted that from Tier VIII up to X the "fun factor" has gone away.  How? Well BB's are sitting so far back that cruisers are having to tank for most of them.  Now do I blame them for doing so? NO, not in the slightest degree.  TBH, there is not much point in playing BB's anymore.  High ROF ships are the meta right now, with 2-4 Smolensk in every fight, now you are starting to see more Corbet's in battle.  Along with DD's smoking up and adding to the daka daka...  What is the point?  Other than to be food.  I reset all my Tier X's for the research center (Had all of them so nothing to grind) and I was having fun grinding them all back.  It has been actually a good thing, playing lower tiers again!  Me and my clan mates are having a blast.  But unfortunately now I am back to tier VIII and getting X battles happens still (not as often, thank you WG), however, when you do get a X it is NOT fun...  at all...

I can't blame the BB drivers for sitting back as far as possible...  Yesterday I saw a Conq try to push (at least he was doing something) and he was burned down VERY quickly.  2 Smolensk and a Corbet divisioned together... Nothing you can do there.

As a DD main, I don't have a problem really.... I don't care about CV's spotting me or even radar.  I work around those mechanics.  And have been torping the daka daka ships that think they are "safe" in smoke.  But to watch BB players rage, in almost EVERY battle because they cant do anything.  Well it's bad.  I have shut chat off when I play top tier battles.  This has to be addressed and fast.  I'll be honest with you.  I KNOW when I get a X battle, it's just not going to be fun.....  And even when I win, and I have a lot of damage and kills etc... in a DD, it still was not that fun...

I am sure I will get trolled, but TBH, when I ask the question in battles, whether winning or losing how people feel, almost ALL of them say the same thing.  So I would say that there is something here...  I am not a bad player, I am not the best player.... but TBH, Tier VIII and up, well they are losing their "fun factor."

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Time wise, I've been playing less than a month, but I've played 1500 games.  This post is exactly on point - it's what I found as someone who is a BB type.  If I want to have any chance of surviving (especially a Random Battle) I have to stay in the rear with the gear and do long range sniping, at least the first ⅔ of a battle... then I can push.  But you can't do anything against a cruiser who can have 2 or even 3 full broadside volleys in the air at the same time.  It always ends up in death by a thousand paper cuts.  I'm currently in North Carolina (VIII) and don't see a point in working towards an Iowa, only to lose several kilometers of main gun range.

I've started working up the research ladder with cruisers so I can get one of those fast reload ships so I can at least fight back.

Thanks for this post.  I know it's not "just me" now.

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@Hapa_Fodder I do think that the devs need to do something about these high RoF CLs, and to a lesser degree, the IJN gunboat DDs.  I just don't know what that "something" would be.  Reduce fire chances across the board, and make HE spammers more dependent on raw damage?  Or vice-versa?  I think that part of the problem is the underlying design decision that all ships need to be able to do good damage to all other ships.  Specifically, small gunned CLs and DDs attacking well armored BBs.  

Also, perhaps part of the problem is the inclusion of HE spells in the first place (in tandem with the need for all ships to be able to do good damage to all other ships).    Maybe HE should be replaced with some form of SAP.  And when I say SAP, don't automatically assume that I mean the SAP that's being developed for the Italian cruisers.    In some post in another thread where SAP came up, someone said that some WG dev had said something along the lines of all nations having some form of "SAP", but that what constituted "SAP" differed from nation to nation.  So maybe a form of "SAP" could be similar to AP, but with different fuse times (i.e. RN CL AP?).  IIRC, the Italian SAP in testing right now has lower penetration but greater damage.  I know that some criticize the greater damage part, but if you're going to make a shell have reduced pen, shouldn't there be something to compensate for that?  Or do they think that the "compensation" is that fewer overpens?  

I suppose that they could just keep HE and vastly reduce fire chances (say, to one tenth of the current value) or remove fire altogether, but perhaps increase the raw damage somewhat in compensation (or not).

I don't think that there are any easy answers here.

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28 minutes ago, Episcopo said:

Time wise, I've been playing less than a month, but I've played 1500 games.  This post is exactly on point - it's what I found as someone who is a BB type.  If I want to have any chance of surviving (especially a Random Battle) I have to stay in the rear with the gear and do long range sniping, at least the first ⅔ of a battle... then I can push.  But you can't do anything against a cruiser who can have 2 or even 3 full broadside volleys in the air at the same time.  It always ends up in death by a thousand paper cuts.  I'm currently in North Carolina (VIII) and don't see a point in working towards an Iowa, only to lose several kilometers of main gun range.

I've started working up the research ladder with cruisers so I can get one of those fast reload ships so I can at least fight back.

Thanks for this post.  I know it's not "just me" now.

It definitely not just you. As I said I am a DD main, though I DO play BB's and Cruisers and have started picking up CV's again.  It is VERY aggravating seeing BB's in the back, but at the same time I feel I cannot blame BB mains for doing this.  As you said 2/3 of the match sitting back unfortunately is how it needs to be.  And don't let people scream at you. Someone eventually will say, "well you are a BB, you should have big hits and blap the cruisers." The problem with this, a Montana can fire 2-5 broadsides, lets say 3 full broadsides thats 36 AP shells flying through the air, and what will you have? Massive alpha? Citadels? Wrecked cruisers?

NOPE, you'll have overpens galore, torpedo protection hits, ricochet's and YES THEY STILL HAPPEN, zero damage penetrations... In the mean time the cruiser will take over half your health.

So yes, I don't blame the BB mains for sitting back, as you said, I am glad I am not the only one seeing this

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20 minutes ago, Crucis said:

@Hapa_Fodder I do think that the devs need to do something about these high RoF CLs, and to a lesser degree, the IJN gunboat DDs.  I just don't know what that "something" would be.  Reduce fire chances across the board, and make HE spammers more dependent on raw damage?  Or vice-versa?  I think that part of the problem is the underlying design decision that all ships need to be able to do good damage to all other ships.  Specifically, small gunned CLs and DDs attacking well armored BBs.  

Also, perhaps part of the problem is the inclusion of HE spells in the first place (in tandem with the need for all ships to be able to do good damage to all other ships).    Maybe HE should be replaced with some form of SAP.  And when I say SAP, don't automatically assume that I mean the SAP that's being developed for the Italian cruisers.    In some post in another thread where SAP came up, someone said that some WG dev had said something along the lines of all nations having some form of "SAP", but that what constituted "SAP" differed from nation to nation.  So maybe a form of "SAP" could be similar to AP, but with different fuse times (i.e. RN CL AP?).  IIRC, the Italian SAP in testing right now has lower penetration but greater damage.  I know that some criticize the greater damage part, but if you're going to make a shell have reduced pen, shouldn't there be something to compensate for that?  Or do they think that the "compensation" is that fewer overpens?  

I suppose that they could just keep HE and vastly reduce fire chances (say, to one tenth of the current value) or remove fire altogether, but perhaps increase the raw damage somewhat in compensation (or not).

I don't think that there are any easy answers here.

I had made the comment today that I think that HE should just have a 1% chance across the board to start fires... Maybe the complete removal of "Demo Expert."  You don't need the increased chance of fire....  I can end a battle with 15 or more fires in any number of ships especially if the enemy team is BB heavy.... I know that people will recoil, "OMG ONLY 1%" except you put me in a Haru and I end a match with around 350 hits (I think that is actually a lower number than my norm, but w/e). "But not everyone can be good at the gun boats Hapa" Well that is where the want to LEARN and increase ones skills in a class should come from.....  That many HE hits at 1% I wouldn't care if it was that low.

The thing I think that WG needs to do, as I mentioned above is LOOK AT AP, I am sorry, if I am in a daka daka cruiser or a gunboat DD and you get hit HARD by AP, then it will make me less wanting to be a bit aggressive and maybe more tactical.  And it will give the BB drivers something to actually do.... instead of CONSTANTLY getting overpens, bounces, shatters, zero damage penetrations and now torpedo protection penetrations.  All of which equals little to no damage. There is a reason you don't see too many Khaba's anymore.  I loved the Khaba...  I really did, but you put a couple BB AP shells into me, it makes me think twice about engaging the way I am.....

I have been saying for about a month now, I can't blame a BB main for firing HE ONLY... why? Well you are for the most part guaranteed some damage.  You can fire the same amount of AP shells and NOT be guaranteed damage....

 

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Have 300  ships most perm and all to tier 10 with the exception of the tier 10 CVs which is kind of broken so I have no interest going for the tier 10 CV line in order to complete it  . Stopped playing tier 9s and 10s a while back and now s hanging around tier 5 through 8s and now playing this game a lot less then I use to that's for sure.  

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1 minute ago, Tachnechdorus said:

Have 300  ships most perm and all to tier 10 with the exception of the tier 10 CVs which is kind of broken so I have no interest going for the tier 10 CV line in order to complete it  . Stopped playing tier 9s and 10s a while back and now s hanging around tier 5 through 8s and now playing this game a lot less then I use to that's for sure.  

Which is unfortunate.  And exactly my point.  If people aren't enjoying the play at top tier, what is the point? I have been around since Alpha testing.  And used to LOVE playing only tier X's and then my premiums at lower tier.... but yeah, don't care for the top tier either.  :(

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I agree, however I would say high tier has been not a fun place to play for quite some time now.

If I am playing high tier now it definitely is not going to be in a battleship, playing BB at high tier feels more like rolling dice than playing WoWs.

Edited by Black_Sheep9
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1 minute ago, Black_Sheep9 said:

I agree, however I would say high tier has been not a fun place to play for quite some time now.

If I am playing high tier now it definitely is not going to be in a battleship, playing BB at high tier feels more like rolling dice than playing WoWs.

I can agree with that I think.  Unless you're in a Kremlin, cause that thing seems to lop 10k per salvo off anything with AP....

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I recently spent 1,000,000 FXP on an Alaska (glad to say I didn't spend any real money on it), but maybe it's the meta or the large amount of fire cruisers but I can't seem to get anything done with it. Fire damage combined with the rapid DPM of CLs is just frustrating to play against even with proper positioning. I would say BBs and battlecruisers are in a tough spot these days. As much as I enjoy IFHE CLs, I think something really needs to be done if WG plans on releasing more high-tier cruisers (Smolensk, Colbert). Honestly, I never thought I would be interested in an IFHE rework until this past month.

Edited by FullMetal_Inferno
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This game is balanced around numbers and not fun factor.

Until the data aka spreadsheets shows less players in BBs at those tiers nothing will change. 

Edited by Rabbitt81
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SAP honestly should just be 1/4th pen HE shells with 0 fire chance. Making it some mutant form of AP is kinda dumb and defeats the gameplay purpose it's supposed to serve.

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4 minutes ago, Rabbitt81 said:

This game is balanced around numbers and not fun factor.

Until the data aka spreadsheets show less players in BBs at those tiers nothing will change. 

This may be true, except when people stop playing the game, because well, they just don't enjoy the game anymore.  Which is the point of "fun factor" you say that it's not based around that and yet that is what games are supposed to be for.  I am VERY sure that data will show less people playing their top tier BB's once reaching that and more people playing the daka daka ships eventually.  The point of this post is to highlight a possible issue, I have been having conversations with a lot of people in randoms and on here and it does appear to be a major problem to most people. I am not even a BB main and I can see the problem.

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5 minutes ago, Rabbitt81 said:

This game is balanced around numbers and not fun factor.

Until the data aka spreadsheets show less players in BBs at those tiers nothing will change. 

Maybe.

However, what one person defines as "fun" is not the same as another.  Also, for those giving out the damage, they'd probably claim it was "fun" (until maybe they are on the receiving end).

I remember the game before the firing detection logic changed and the DDs firing from beyond my visibility range (and it was just raining shells and starting fires which you couldn't even run away from as the DD could "pace" you staying hidden).

BTW - All my Tier Xs are cruisers (and no, I don't have a Smolensk - yet) and I view lots of BBs as good sources of damage (burn baby burn).

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1 minute ago, dashtardly said:

Maybe.

However, what one person defines as "fun" is not the same as another.  Also, for those giving out the damage, they'd probably claim it was "fun" (until maybe they are on the receiving end).

I remember the game before the firing detection logic changed and the DDs firing from beyond my visibility range (and it was just raining shells and starting fires which you couldn't even run away from as the DD could "pace" you staying hidden).

BTW - All my Tier Xs are cruisers (and no, I don't have a Smolensk - yet) and I view lots of BBs as good sources of damage (burn baby burn).

See I didn't like the fact that they removed the "invisi-fire" mechanic, until I saw how the engagements actually would go down.  I have always said, if I am a ship that is squishy (like a DD) and I get spotted that is my own fault and I deserve the damage.  No one likes being the food LOL

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Those games are better than the tier 4-6 or 7 though.  Much rather play the higher tier than mid to low tier.

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I've always disliked the static meta...seriously dont need to get up to full speed in a Colorado in a tier 9 battle...because the point is to snipe...which is absurd game design.

If only the CV and sub reworks were done with an eye towards improving the game meta...

...but they werent and wont be anything more than a platform to sell premium pixel boats.. game experience be damned.

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Just now, CylonRed said:

Those games are better than the tier 4-6 or 7 though.  Much rather play the higher tier than mid to low tier.

Ya know I used to think so too, except I have been having more fun at tier 5 and tier 7 than before.  I am not sure if this is because MM has been edited or what.  But I have been having far more fun at those tiers.  I will say tier 6 is NOT fun, barely at all.  If I get up tiered in a 5 or 7 I don't feel quite as underpowered as I do at tier 6, not sure why.

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2 minutes ago, CylonRed said:

Those games are better than the tier 4-6 or 7 though.  Much rather play the higher tier than mid to low tier.

Disagree.

My experience in tiers 8-10 is a static, boring meta overrun with potatoes.

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I really would like to see the current hard statistics...  Like, how many BB players are actually doing damage at the level that some of the daka daka is putting out...  Because I don't feel that BB's can really perform to their level.  I am currently up to 25 screenshots showing battles where the BB's are on the bottom and the daka daka is on top of both teams....  All I know is, I'll steer clear of tier IX-X for as long as I can I think.... Except my DD's.

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I had to run the low tier games with the RU BBs that I started a month or 2 ago.  I had to start at the beginning and now up to tier 8 and by far the worse games were the low tier where 99% of the team does not understand the points, mechanics, any strategy etc....  Far higher quality games at the higher tiers where the majority of the games, the majority of the team members know the value of a cap, the value of not letting the reds take a cap for free, and know that taking of the cap first really doe snot help if you can't keep it.

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1 hour ago, Hapa_Fodder said:

I really would like to see the current hard statistics...  Like, how many BB players are actually doing damage at the level that some of the daka daka is putting out...  Because I don't feel that BB's can really perform to their level.  I am currently up to 25 screenshots showing battles where the BB's are on the bottom and the daka daka is on top of both teams....  All I know is, I'll steer clear of tier IX-X for as long as I can I think.... Except my DD's.

That is/are "daka daks"?  DDs?  I have never seen that nomenclature in the forums or the game before...

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2 minutes ago, CylonRed said:

That is/are "daka daks"?  DDs?  I have never seen that nomenclature in the forums or the game before...

"Daka Daka" refers to any high ROF ship. Atlanta, Flint, Akizuki, Kitakaze, Harugamo, Corbet, etc... or the new Smolensk.

4 minutes ago, CylonRed said:

I had to run the low tier games with the RU BBs that I started a month or 2 ago.  I had to start at the beginning and now up to tier 8 and by far the worse games were the low tier where 99% of the team does not understand the points, mechanics, any strategy etc....  Far higher quality games at the higher tiers where the majority of the games, the majority of the team members know the value of a cap, the value of not letting the reds take a cap for free, and know that taking of the cap first really doe snot help if you can't keep it.

Though I do agree that the learning is still occuring at lower tiers, I have noted that more people are grinding at lower tiers as many of us have reset the X's.  Beyond that it has led to some pretty amazing carries playing at the lower tiers again.  I TRY to suggest things to the players in lower tiers, but I am sure sometimes this comes across as demands perhaps?

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