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Canadian_Reaper

What's the Point of the 203mm Cruisers?

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Hey All

Not really a whine- I've used both 152 IFHE Ca's as well as the 203's, but every time I come back to the game there seem to be more IFHE spammers, (including me) and after more games- I'm curious as to people's thoughts on the role of the 203mm armed cruisers.

152's-with or without IFHE seem to be far more useful vs DD"s, BB's and other CA's- now if a 203 gets me broadside, yes I'll take a bigger hit from the alpha damage he can put out, but if he doesn't kill me I can either also citadel him (with a faster reload) or if he angles I can usually just either burn him down or just IFHE him while I angle against his return fire. 

Again, I like both of them, not calling for a nerf, as I said, just curious about what I'm missing as far as 203mm cruisers go- because it seems the smaller gun ones do everything equally well, if not better.

 

Thanks!

 

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Heavy cruisers (203mm CA) are more balanced between AP and HE vs light cruisers (<=155mm CL) which depend almost entirely on HE or very special AP. 

 

Play the DM, Zao, or Hindi. CAs are plenty strong especially since they get a useful AP shell. With a little range the effectiveness of small caliber shells starts diminishing and once the target ship gets saturated a CL has to depend on fire damage where the CA can pen more surfaces with HE or choose AP in more cases to get damage anyways. CA cruisers require more tactics and better setups, they are not as easy wins as loading HE and hitting targets, but they can do plenty well, especially vs CLs. A DM vs a Wooster should only let a wooster win if the DM makes mistakes. The wooster can only use more than 2 turrets if the DM lets him. 

Edited by 1nv4d3rZ1m
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12 minutes ago, Canadian_Reaper said:

Again, I like both of them, not calling for a nerf, as I said, just curious about what I'm missing as far as 203mm cruisers go- because it seems the smaller gun ones do everything equally well, if not better

So, at lower tiers the 203 mm cruisers can pen things you don’t expect, like the bows of Omaha’s and emeralds. At close range, they can usually pen the top half of a BB’s Hull with AP, and given those BBs are slow, relatively inaccurate and can be driven by newer players, you may not immediately die from such close range engagement. 

At higher tiers, the 203s allow you to pen more superstructures and decks to get direct HE damage and still get fire damage - anyone on the receiving end of a Zao knows how much that can hurt. Sure, an IHFE CL can do that too, but a 203 cruiser can do it without spending an additional 4 points that can be used on other things. 

Still, 203 mm cruisers are still best at blapping other cruisers with AP, which they can do with better alpha and ballistics - CLs suffer at range shooting AP back. If your opponent is turning and you only get one shot, having good alpha helps. 

Edited by UltimateNewbie
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There is also more of a trend of CLs having floatier shells and less accuracy at range compared to CAs. What is a real turnoff for me is that CLs tend to have very weak AP shell penetration (naturally because of the gun caliber). I always take great satisfaction in deleting a mid-range cruiser with a well-placed AP salvo from a CA as opposed to spending more time peppering a target with slower moving low-alpha shells.

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20 minutes ago, Flashtirade said:

This issue is part of the reason IFHE is getting a rework, though not anytime soon acording to S_O.

Of course not, it would cut into the profits was getting on the rb [edited] for their new rapid fire cls. 

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21 minutes ago, Canadian_Reaper said:

Not really a whine- I've used both 152 IFHE Ca's as well as the 203's, but every time I come back to the game there seem to be more IFHE spammers, (including me) and after more games- I'm curious as to people's thoughts on the role of the 203mm armed cruisers.

152's-with or without IFHE seem to be far more useful vs DD"s, BB's and other CA's- now if a 203 gets me broadside, yes I'll take a bigger hit from the alpha damage he can put out, but if he doesn't kill me I can either also citadel him (with a faster reload) or if he angles I can usually just either burn him down or just IFHE him while I angle against his return fire. 

Again, I like both of them, not calling for a nerf, as I said, just curious about what I'm missing as far as 203mm cruisers go- because it seems the smaller gun ones do everything equally well, if not better.

 

Some are born cruiser hunters .

Some are born Support/DD hunters

Some are born BB fire spammers.

Some are just born/laid/christened  just to suck

At issue, which cruiser did you pick.... Fit in with the 3 different play styles noted above.

 

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20 minutes ago, 1nv4d3rZ1m said:

Heavy cruisers (203mm CA) are more balanced between AP and HE vs light cruisers (<=155mm CL) which depend almost entirely on HE or very special AP. 

 

Play the DM, Zao, or Hindi. CAs are plenty strong especially since they get a useful AP shell. With a little range the effectiveness of small caliber shells starts diminishing and once the target ship gets saturated a CL has to depend on fire damage where the CA can pen more surfaces with HE or choose AP in more cases to get damage anyways. CA cruisers require more tactics and better setups, they are not as easy wins as loading HE and hitting targets, but they can do plenty well, especially vs CLs. A DM vs a Wooster should only let a wooster win if the DM makes mistakes. The wooster can only use more than 2 turrets if the DM lets him. 

Well that's it- I love the ZAO and Hindy (I'm indifferent to the DM, but that's entirely because I suck with her arcs- I haven't tried the Worchester, but imagine I'd be worse..) but played a number of games on a friends account, with.. Smolensk and Colbert- and I melted both Zao's and Hindenburg-  (and I'm not great) the Hindenburg especially was just a mess, just kept firing into his superstructure and it was just brutal.

Now these are two of the newest cruisers added- but teh rapid fire HE -even with the  worse ballistics- seems so much better.  

Maybe I am so out of touch I'm building mY captains wrong- so while a CL basically uses 4pts for IFHE- what do most of you spend the points on for your big gun cruisers that you find more useful?

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Canadian_Reaper said:

Well that's it- I love the ZAO and Hindy (I'm indifferent to the DM, but that's entirely because I suck with her arcs- I haven't tried the Worchester, but imagine I'd be worse..) but played a number of games on a friends account, with.. Smolensk and Colbert- and I melted both Zao's and Hindenburg-  (and I'm not great) the Hindenburg especially was just a mess, just kept firing into his superstructure and it was just brutal.

Now these are two of the newest cruisers added- but teh rapid fire HE -even with the  worse ballistics- seems so much better.  

Maybe I am so out of touch I'm building mY captains wrong- so while a CL basically uses 4pts for IFHE- what do most of you spend the points on for your big gun cruisers that you find more useful?

I dont know that there is necessarily a must have skill for CAs in general. IFHE is not useful except maybe on the Hindi.

 

You just need to think differently to play the CAs. Its true that the new rapid fire CLs can quickly demolish a CA but at the same time a well aimed CA salvo can demolish most of a CL instantly. You need to be careful what kind of fight you get yourself into. A Zao for example has pretty good concealment and can choose fights pretty decently but it cant stand up because it starts with little HP. You dont want to to get into an HE trade with CLs, what you want is to start the engagement with a well aimed AP salvo that hits them hard. Use the concealment to get a good position and then open the fight on your terms. If they are in smoke use those 12 km torepdoes to clear the smoke. With the Hindi you need to use the Hindi's advantages which are range, shell velocity,  AP Alpha, and if you have the legendary and correct build almost complete immunity to fires. Let someone else stumble into the CL and then pound them at ranges they cant reliably hit you. Alternatively if they are hanging out near land you can use the land to hide you until you get close and come around the corner to devastate them with a good AP salvo or those torpedoes.

 

It depends on situation, what ship you are in, what the enemy is in, the location, other team mates or enemies, how good each player is, etc. CLs are easy mode sitting behind an island or in smoke spamming fires the CA needs to find ways to apply a high alpha strike or make sure the practical DPM of the CL is very low because they cant hit you well. The other day I was able to sneak up on a smolensk in my DM and radar it. Before he could get moving I already had a salvo of AP on the way and 5 DM citadels dont leave much HP on a smolensk. He thought he was happy because he was smoked up behind an island but his team had lost control of the middle of the map so I was to do something he was not expecting. 

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1 hour ago, 1nv4d3rZ1m said:

I dont know that there is necessarily a must have skill for CAs in general. IFHE is not useful except maybe on the Hindi.

I find it pretty useful with Henri.  Haven't tried it in Hindenburg yet, but with all the RU BBs I'm seeing I think I'm going to have to start using it.

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AFAIK, 203mm itself is one of the reference calibers this game was designed and theoretically balanced around. That also means it's one of the oldest and most power-crept calibers, right along with the other two originals, particularly at high tier: 127mm and 406mm. While some 203mm ships make up for this in other ways (Zao's artificially small dispersion, or DM's insane ROF), the caliber itself is pretty weak in terms of what it can defeat vs. not.

Edited by Edgecase
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21 minutes ago, Aaron_S_Merrill said:

I find it pretty useful with Henri.  Haven't tried it in Hindenburg yet, but with all the RU BBs I'm seeing I think I'm going to have to start using it.

The Henri is not a 203mm cruiser. 

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Why CAs?  To save the 4 points from IFHE, and to kill the little cruisers.  Nom nom nom. 

 

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Now, don't you be a-badmouthin 203s -- I served in a 203 (8 inch) unit!

cbd141f8042444759dc62561d4beab3d.jpg

On a less facetious note. I much prefer CAs to CLs. The Des Moines' 203s can splat a broadside CL or CA in one salvo, and even make a broadside BB think twice about what it's doing wrong.

Her is Flambass, showing what a CA with 203s can do:

 

 

Edited by Snargfargle
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Yeah the combination of 152 mm HE/IFHE wit fires is something Wargaming needs to stop dragging their feet on (for the years it has existed the first real 'nerf' we get was a proposal officially announced in July that would only help tier 8-10 BB's, while screwing over players that take it to pen other ships against those ships further) During the France snowflake like segment Charleston, that doesn't need IFHE at that tier to pen BB's, ate up Tier 3 BB's with pen and fires, let alone others like Atlanta and Helena depending on tier and IFHE use. Better solution is adjusting fire burns on BB's (now literally the only class to not have that) and repair party at this point to compensate. Or make IFHE similar to the Italian SAP they are testing where it can be ricocheted, just not as easily. 

As to the point of 203 mm shells - Wrecking other cruisers, spamming slower HE that auto-pens BB's no IFHE required, and my favourite - trolling BB's at close slamming rounds into their citadel or for full pens while out running the turrets. 

Generally speaking it's

3-6 inches - DD destroying weapons, with some use vs cruisers

8-12 - Cruiser killing weapons, with some use vs BB's

14-15 inch - a weird area that usually is better for hunting particularly CA, decently good vs CL and not bad vs BB. The lighter armour of CL's is why only "decently good" because 15 and 15 inch guns over pen them a bit more, especially some of the German ones.

16-18.1 (because they said they refuse to add anything bigger... for now) - undisputed BB killers. 

Obviously in their own ways the guns can be effective vs any type, that's just what they are typically best at and kinda designed for, least in game. Though tier also plays a bit of a factor as most low tier BB's run 12-14 inch guns to slug it out with each other, also have lower armour at that tier. 

 

But that's just my opinion and view.

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6 hours ago, Flashtirade said:

This issue is part of the reason IFHE is getting a rework, though not anytime soon acording to S_O.

Do you have a source/more info on this?  I essentially quit playing due to the way they were talking about nerfing IFHE.  If there's been a change, I'd consider playing again.  I really don't mind IFHE being nerfed; I do however mind the concept of T8+ BB being effectively immune to T6 and 7 CL gunfire.

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CAs are more of a thinking man's ship. You have to do a lot more work to put in more damage, but the result is worth it. Most of them are super versatile and can stand toe to toe with any ship when played correctly, as they have no weaknesses to exploit and many strengths. It really depends on a ship by ship basis. Some trade their versatility for supportive ability, others are downright scary like the Furutaka and Moskva that can become as tanky as battleships in skilled hands. Some are more specialized like the American CAs, where they lack radar at lower tiers they make up with amazing firepower and overmatch. All of them are in a good spot balance-wise.

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2 hours ago, crzyhawk said:

Do you have a source/more info on this?  I essentially quit playing due to the way they were talking about nerfing IFHE.  If there's been a change, I'd consider playing again.  I really don't mind IFHE being nerfed; I do however mind the concept of T8+ BB being effectively immune to T6 and 7 CL gunfire.

 

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6 minutes ago, NeoRussia said:

CAs are more of a thinking man's ship they have no weaknesses to exploit and many strengths. 

WOWS in cat terms:

The BB:

image.png.10166f8bea7a4be4feaad1811cc2b2bb.png

The CL

image.png.6b30a8182f42887fdbc132e072f222d2.png

The CA

image.png.fd4220333d3716043acaa249644a5bcb.png

The DD

image.png.2339decddbb88d5466f97f3b5ee3a5d9.png

The CV

image.png.ef10e614e875f5e512277e4a1fede8d1.png

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Maplesyrup 2nd Quarter NA Server Stats (2019-03-30 to 2019-06-29)

Interestingly enough, in terms of Damage Dealing, the USN CLs and CAs are very close to each other.  The only place where the CL is much better is in Tier VII where Helena is clearly doing better than the POS that is New Orleans.  Outside Tier VII, it's very close.  Even in Tier X, DM & Worcester damage output is quite close.

Tier X Cruiser Dmg Avg

Stalingrad 99k

Yoshino 95k

Henri IV 94k

Zao 75k (203mm)

Moskva 72k

Hindenburg 70k (203mm)

Worcester 67k

Des Moines 65k (203mm)

Salem 64k (203mm)

Minotaur 62k (152mm RN CL AP only)

 

"Fire Breather" Worcester which a lot of player like to complain about as a fire starter, does less damage than 203mm armed Hindenburg, Zao in her tier.  She does more damage than Des Moines and Salem, but not by much.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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The only reason Helena is better is because of all the guns it can spam, other than that my aft Helena is better than New Orleans. 

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11 hours ago, UltimateNewbie said:

So, at lower tiers the 203 mm cruisers can pen things you don’t expect, like the bows of Omaha’s and emeralds. At close range, they can usually pen the top half of a BB’s Hull with AP, and given those BBs are slow, relatively inaccurate and can be driven by newer players, you may not immediately die from such close range engagement. 

At higher tiers, the 203s allow you to pen more superstructures and decks to get direct HE damage and still get fire damage - anyone on the receiving end of a Zao knows how much that can hurt. Sure, an IHFE CL can do that too, but a 203 cruiser can do it without spending an additional 4 points that can be used on other things. 

Still, 203 mm cruisers are still best at blapping other cruisers with AP, which they can do with better alpha and ballistics - CLs suffer at range shooting AP back. If your opponent is turning and you only get one shot, having good alpha helps. 

Furutaka ftw.

If I'm in a dd I'd much rather fight a wooster than a zao. If im 10k+ away the radar and floaty shells are a hinderance... if im under 6k away prepare to eat metal fish... but zao? Zao can nuke 50%+ off a dd from surprising ranges with its laser guided HE... and with a 10k stealth plus acoustics plus 20x shimakaze torps... just... no thanks. Zaos and minos are dd bane... and neither need ifhe.

DM has amazing bow tanking.

Hindy just wont die... and has all those suicide torps... and kites a treat.

Henri has its wonky compartmentalized armor and pen.

Isnt the real question whats the point of 150mm HE vessels in the face of ifhe rework?

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