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Col_Nasty

Differences in IJN DD main guns?

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I have all of the US DDs and I am grinding the IJN DDs  on the way to a Shima.    I've been beaten in Knife fights many times even though I am getting good accurate hits with my DDs of other Nations but I am SMACKING it with the IJN line..    They say they have the same size guns.. the Pew pew rate is slower AND the turrets are like molasses but I am now at t7 and I am actually out LOOKING for trouble in this thing.  AKATSUKI is a terror with its guns.. I can imagine what will happen when I get her commander trained up.

Why are they so much more powerful?  I mean I get pissed if I see less than 1500 per HE volley on another DD now and I see 2.5 and 3ks often.  I can really do damage to CAs with the AP too. I go after BBs now with these guns too.  I know I can with my T8-T10 US DDS but this started at T6 in the IJN line.

What Gives?

Col Out

Edited by Col_Nasty

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The fact that IJN DDs have usable guns is the best kept secret in WoWS

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24 minutes ago, axyarthur said:

The fact that IJN DDs have usable guns is the best kept secret in WoWS

 

giphy.gif

 

 

The amount of salt in ranked when any DD except the Kitakaze got beaten by a lowly Yugumo in a gun fight was an absolute pleasure.

Edited by Camo68
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indeed.  They were good guns even before their recent buff. Velocity, arcs, and turret alignment make them fantastic at kiting.  It is sad how many IJN DDs i have gunned down over the years who never fired a shot.  They just sit there and take it.

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1 hour ago, Col_Nasty said:

Why are they so much more powerful?

Since the game's release, the big flavor mechanic for the IJN has always been superior HE shells.  The IJN 127mm DD guns have more HE alpha than most nations do on their 152mm CL guns.  However, that was nerfed way back when torpedo soup was a thing, and wasn't reverted until just recently.

I've always though IJN DDs did best with a partially gun specc'ed captain.  EM makes their guns much more usable while kiting, and BFT isn't a bad choice either - especially for Akatsuki.  Be careful about taking AFT though, having a low gun bloom while firing is useful, and IJN ballistics actually do very poorly at range since the shells have A LOT of drag.

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Basically, the IJN guns have 116 more damage once you factor in mechanics, roughly 600 damage vs 716 damage. They also typically favour a running gun battle given their setup. And only a couple ships below tier 8 use 2x2 turrets forward. 

That being said, as someone who got to Shimakaze, and is almost back to tier 7 on that line, and plays the others - anyone losing to you in a fair, one on one fight needs to get better at aiming and dodging. in the 7.5 seconds it takes Akat to fire a Mahan has time to uncover it's other turrets, likely during a dodge  anyway, and fire off 2 volleys of 4-5 guns, and then go back to a narrow profile. Even Germany at tiers can equip a 15 cm gun that mostly cruisers would use that fires as fast or faster and hits just as hard. Factor in also the higher hitpoints of most of the "gun" ships, they frankly have no reason to lose those fights.

 

That's not to say IJN guns aren't useable - if you can't get out of range of a chasing DD tto vanish you should be shooting at them, if you can do it without drawing attention you should be firing at cruisers and BB's. But if you go looking to fight DD's head on, especially at high tiers, when your not in Akizuki, your gonna find players that won't just let you hammer them and are going to literally rain fire on you. Let alone that even with their overnerfed torps, IJN DD's have the second biggest target on them second only maybe to CV's - and you are spotted for 20 seconds if you fire in clear water. They are meant to ambush larger ships with torps and go finish off ships with low HP. 

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5 hours ago, axyarthur said:

The fact that IJN DDs have usable guns is the best kept secret in WoWS

Yeah like I have gone up against players that were using Akatsuki while in Jevis and despite my often coming away victorious, I am often only left barely alive or sometimes have been sunk. Now it’s not always the case, but if you are trying to corner an IJN DD you do need to not underestimate their guns just because they are often considered weak. Main weakness I find in IJN DD guns has been turret traverse and often rate of fire in torp line IJN DDs. But if the DD shells hit your ship, you will feel them.

And to be honest any IJN DD has usable guns except Mutsuki, which may actually be where players learn to be afraid of using IJN DD guns at all.

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6 hours ago, Frederick_The_Great said:

It is sad how many IJN DDs i have gunned down over the years who never fired a shot.  They just sit there and take it.

YouTube vids prevalent when I started playing this game two years ago emphasised the suckiness of IJN DD guns (especially Mutsuki) and heavily discouraged their use. It wasn't until I saw @Destroyer_KuroshioKai's vids on how to handle the Hatsuharu, shortly after I got her, that this damage started to be undone.

I have a vague recollection of being negatively influenced by someone who's famous for running aground, but I could be misremembering.

53 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

And to be honest any IJN DD has usable guns except Mutsuki, which may actually be where players learn to be afraid of using IJN DD guns at all.

It's almost certainly the Mutsuki which undeservedly gives the entire line its bad reputation. The stock guns on that thing are indeed godawful, and even the B guns with the doubled rate of fire are not much better, but they can still potentially light fires on a ship that's DCP'd the flood you gave her, or give an enemy DD with very little health left incentive not to chase you any more. It's the one Japanese DD I would definitely advocate NOT choosing to bring to a gunfight, unless your opponent is on the barest sliver of health and anything you do to them will send them back to port.

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9 hours ago, Col_Nasty said:

I have all of the US DDs and I am grinding the IJN DDs  on the way to a Shima.    I've been beaten in Knife fights many times even though I am getting good accurate hits with my DDs of other Nations but I am SMACKING it with the IJN line..    They say they have the same size guns.. the Pew pew rate is slower AND the turrets are like molasses but I am now at t7 and I am actually out LOOKING for trouble in this thing.  AKATSUKI is a terror with its guns.. I can imagine what will happen when I get her commander trained up.

Why are they so much more powerful?  I mean I get pissed if I see less than 1500 per HE volley on another DD now and I see 2.5 and 3ks often.  I can really do damage to CAs with the AP too. I go after BBs now with these guns too.  I know I can with my T8-T10 US DDS but this started at T6 in the IJN line.

What Gives?

Col Out

Welcome to the club.

IJN guns were always good, just the community at large didn't understand hire to use them kiting rather than knife fight. The community contributor videos early in the games history is rife with the forget you have guns nonsense.  

I've been one of few, and possibly one of the better known content creators dispelling that rubbish.

I'm not in front of a computer now but I encourage you to look at my channel.  I have analysed IJN torp boats deeper than anyone.  I even have a video going over the hidden HP build into each one with small caliber AA mounts that are positioned in commonly hit areas like the stern, midship and around the front of the superstructure.  It can add a few thousand to several thousand HP to the ship if you know how to kite away making areas like your hull smaller to target, and as the range opens up shells land on your deck hitting them where they absorb the damage.

The video in question has me pick apart a gearing in my Shimakaze well under 8km and is done mostly in slow motion so I can explain it thoroughly.

There I'd much the average player does not know about them. I hope my videos can help you further.  

Oh and I hope you enjoy my gun boost Akatsuki build.  She is a joy to use.

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The guns have always been situational. Knowing when it's okay to risk your greatest defense (stealth) and lowest HP is paramount to properly using the slow-firing, slow-turning guns typically found on Japanese destroyers.

Any equally skilled gunship will pick you apart via faster ROF and higher HP values, so you have to minimize their ability to do that.

People do like to say that the IJN have "good shell arcs", but they're really only marginally better than the USN. The Russian shell arcs are far better at range and have the same shell damage.

These are just some of the things you need to take into account when using your guns on the Japanese boats. They're by no means bad guns, but they have a lot of caveats that need to be accounted for which other destroyers generally get to ignore.

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I just checked, nearly a quarter of my Shima kills come from guns (70 out of 297) :cap_haloween:

Also, I have three gun kills with Shima in a single battle, apparently.

So yeah, make sure you use 'em. They're good.

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9 hours ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

And to be honest any IJN DD has usable guns except Mutsuki, which may actually be where players learn to be afraid of using IJN DD guns at all.

 

8 hours ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

It's almost certainly the Mutsuki which undeservedly gives the entire line its bad reputation. The stock guns on that thing are indeed godawful, and even the B guns with the doubled rate of fire are not much better, but they can still potentially light fires on a ship that's DCP'd the flood you gave her, or give an enemy DD with very little health left incentive not to chase you any more. It's the one Japanese DD I would definitely advocate NOT choosing to bring to a gunfight, unless your opponent is on the barest sliver of health and anything you do to them will send them back to port.

 

 

Heh-heh, I've got 24 gun kills in my Mutsuki.   ;-)   About one-sixth of my total.

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15 hours ago, Frederick_The_Great said:

indeed.  They were good guns even before their recent buff. Velocity, arcs, and turret alignment make them fantastic at kiting.  It is sad how many IJN DDs i have gunned down over the years who never fired a shot.  They just sit there and take it.

Their buff was simply undoing a stupid nerf to the IJN 127mm HE damage.  There was absolutely zero reason to nerf IJN 127mm to begin with, especially since WG has been doing the highly questionable move on making even smaller sized guns penetrate as if they were much larger guns.

IJN 100mm

German 105mm / 128mm

That sh*t didn't need free HE Pen buffing.  It should have been, "You want great HE Penetration?  Get bigger guns."

Now you can get smaller guns that Pen just like much larger guns.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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8 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Their buff was simply undoing a stupid nerf to the IJN 127mm HE damage.  There was absolutely zero reason to nerf IJN 127mm to begin with, especially since WG has been doing the highly questionable move on making even smaller sized guns penetrate as if they were much larger guns.

IJN 100mm

German 105mm / 128mm

That sh*t didn't need free HE Pen buffing.  It should have been, "You want great HE Penetration?  Get bigger guns."

Now you can get smaller guns that Pen just like much larger guns.

If i recall correctly, that HE nerf was roughly around the same time the RU DDs got their alpha buffed.

 

I remember when the German secondaries had double the fire chance as the DD guns, or something along those lines.  I actually preferred that old fire chance over the pen buff.   It made fighting the tier 10s in my bismark easier.  You just burned them to death while staying angled.  Amusingly the KM DDs never got any of these pen buffs.  The cruisers and BBs for the KM  all get better pen on their HE. The DD  HE alpha is pretty awful. A single AP OP does nearly as much damage, before damage saturation as a penning HE shell. 

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49 minutes ago, Frederick_The_Great said:

If i recall correctly, that HE nerf was roughly around the same time the RU DDs got their alpha buffed.

 

I remember when the German secondaries had double the fire chance as the DD guns, or something along those lines.  I actually preferred that old fire chance over the pen buff.   It made fighting the tier 10s in my bismark easier.  You just burned them to death while staying angled.  Amusingly the KM DDs never got any of these pen buffs.  The cruisers and BBs for the KM  all get better pen on their HE. The DD  HE alpha is pretty awful. A single AP OP does nearly as much damage, before damage saturation as a penning HE shell. 

German BB Secondaries originally were known as fire starters but I can't recall their original fire chance before that got nerfed.  For example, Tirpitz, Bismarck 105mm secondaries were fine because they set people ablaze despite the shells having very poor HE Pen.  I want to say they got changed around the time the FR BBs entered the game but I'm not 100% on that.

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