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shadragon

DD vs BB - Discussion

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Since coming back to the game, I'm seeing DD biased matchmaking with up to 5 destroyers per side. As I've been grinding up the US BB tiers, facing that number of DD's is onerous.
 
I'm not moaning about the matchmaking, but a straight up DD vs BB fight is heavily skewed to the destroyer and with that many DD's you will usually end up in just that situation, if not facing multiple DD's. With my T5 BB, I nailed a full health T6 DD (broadside 4 KM away) with twelve 320 mm (over a foot wide) HE shells. Six shells hit, taking it down to half health. I disabled his engine and torp rack, but he pressed R and was back in the game. With a ~26 second reload time on my main guns (and violent manuvering), I only got the one shot.
 
When within 7km of a DD (for the sake of argument), there needs to be better mechanics. A foot wide HE shell detonation will send torp launchers over the side. A close proximity detonation should stun the DD crew for at least a few seconds like in WoT. Do DD's flood? I've never seen that happen, but it should for a detonation near the waterline cracking open the hull or an AP shell going all the way through creating a foot wide hole on either side of the ship.
 
- Why not a new Captain skill, "Small Targets?" With this, when an enemy DD is visible within 7KM of your ship, your main battery reloads are 20% faster and do 20% more damage (due to motivated crew and close proximity firing). Secondaries are 10-15% faster reload and maybe damage as well.
 
- Or a flag with increased damage against a destroyer in close proximity and faster ammo swap from AP to HE. 
 
- With a stun mechanic for a close proximity detonation, where the DD captain has his R key grayed out for 5-10 seconds.
 
Outside of 7KM, advantage DD. However, if they come close, there should be balance there too. I thought it was worth a discussion.
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DDs are supposed to counter BBs. You also need to realize dds have no heal, paper thin armor so most any hit can knock out modules, no torpedo defense system, and the lowest number of HP. As a BB you have to read the map well to make sure DDs can't end up in a position to 1 on 1 you with no way for you to escape. If one is charging you down, you need to make it a chase so you can fire at him as long as possible and knock out systems between his dcp cooldown or outright kill them. 

Edited by RipNuN2
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OP, please don’t go down the “Reality “ rabbit hole. 

Played any DD lately? The number and capability of the hard counters to DDs is impressive. 

WASD is a thing. It’s one reason why torps are a 7% success. 

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While it is frustrating playing in a BB with so many DDs, you may want to remember that BBs have the ability to Dev Strike cruisers with one salvo halfway across the map! Where’s the empathy for that player?

If BBs were  anymore powerful against DDs they wouldn’t really have a counter.

 

Edited by CptRemy
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since the announcement of a potential IFHE nerf by WoWS, many CA/CL mains are converting to DD, that are extremely fun to sail and battle. So, best DD predators are cruisers, but s nerf is looming so...more DDs... 

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Too many beginner BBs stand and fight a DD, or worse, charge the smoke cloud. Those are usually death.

Kite away, force the DD to chase or retire. If he chases, you get that many more chances to knock him out.

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7 minutes ago, Prothall said:

Too many beginner BBs stand and fight a DD, or worse, charge the smoke cloud. Those are usually death.

Kite away, force the DD to chase or retire. If he chases, you get that many more chances to knock him out.

Completely depends on the situation. Learning to read the situation, when to charge and when to retreat, is important. And then being able to execute the maneuvers for success in both is key.

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and still, BBs are still the most played class in the game.

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38 minutes ago, Thornir said:

OP, please don’t go down the “Reality “ rabbit hole. 

Played any DD lately? The number and capability of the hard counters to DDs is impressive. 

WASD is a thing. It’s one reason why torps are a 7% success. 

You speak the truth.

Even 2 battleships vs 1 destroyer can end up with Destroyer winning or getting detonated.

Friendly destroyer & cruisers are your best defense. 

Best time for a battleship to shoot a destroyer is 7 to 16 km or under 3 km....

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DDs made up 27.51% of all games played last week.  That's an average of 3.3 DDs per team.  BBs made up 35.90%, or 4.3 BBs per team.  BBs are the most played ship type in the game.

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If anything BBs are too strong against DDs

Torps are easy to dodge and all a BB needs is get two shells hits and a DD has lost 1\4 of its health

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You need to spend some time playing DDs, OP.

1.  The grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence.

2.  You understand what DD players look for in an ideal prey and how they go about in attacking it.  Understand that, then you will be better able to make yourself a harder target.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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1 hour ago, shadragon said:
Since coming back to the game, I'm seeing DD biased matchmaking with up to 5 destroyers per side. As I've been grinding up the US BB tiers, facing that number of DD's is onerous.
 
I'm not moaning about the matchmaking, but a straight up DD vs BB fight is heavily skewed to the destroyer and with that many DD's you will usually end up in just that situation, if not facing multiple DD's. With my T5 BB, I nailed a full health T6 DD (broadside 4 KM away) with twelve 320 mm (over a foot wide) HE shells. Six shells hit, taking it down to half health. I disabled his engine and torp rack, but he pressed R and was back in the game. With a ~26 second reload time on my main guns (and violent manuvering), I only got the one shot.
 
When within 7km of a DD (for the sake of argument), there needs to be better mechanics. A foot wide HE shell detonation will send torp launchers over the side. A close proximity detonation should stun the DD crew for at least a few seconds like in WoT. Do DD's flood? I've never seen that happen, but it should for a detonation near the waterline cracking open the hull or an AP shell going all the way through creating a foot wide hole on either side of the ship.
 
- Why not a new Captain skill, "Small Targets?" With this, when an enemy DD is visible within 7KM of your ship, your main battery reloads are 20% faster and do 20% more damage (due to motivated crew and close proximity firing). Secondaries are 10-15% faster reload and maybe damage as well.
 
- Or a flag with increased damage against a destroyer in close proximity and faster ammo swap from AP to HE. 
 
- With a stun mechanic for a close proximity detonation, where the DD captain has his R key grayed out for 5-10 seconds.
 
Outside of 7KM, advantage DD. However, if they come close, there should be balance there too. I thought it was worth a discussion.

Before the dubious AP nerf against DDs, you'd dev strike that canoe 96% of the time. DDs are breaking and holding back the game.

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the best bilge pumps wouldn't stand much chance against water from six+ 16in holes lol, but reality has to take back seat sometimes for gameplay

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1 hour ago, Crokodone said:

Before the dubious AP nerf against DDs, you'd dev strike that canoe 96% of the time. DDs are breaking and holding back the game.

So the lowest-damage, least-surviving, least-played surface ship type is ruining the game, huh?

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Ohh, yes, Because DDs don't have similar problems from radar and CVs. Imagine a DD in a 3 CV game. Or a DD in a 5 radar ship game.

Then you have cruisers in a BB-heavy game. Yes, cruisers know where you are usually, but honeybadger don't care and sometimes neither does AP. Ever get a cit on a cruiser you felt you really shouldn't have? Ever gotten a dev strike you felt you shouldn't have? Welcome to life as a cruiser, where RNG sometimes decides you must die now.

If DDs bother you so much, run secondaries. DDs hate those up close.

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35 minutes ago, Shoggoth_pinup said:

Ohh, yes, Because DDs don't have similar problems from radar and CVs. Imagine a DD in a 3 CV game. Or a DD in a 5 radar ship game.

Then you have cruisers in a BB-heavy game. Yes, cruisers know where you are usually, but honeybadger don't care and sometimes neither does AP. Ever get a cit on a cruiser you felt you really shouldn't have? Ever gotten a dev strike you felt you shouldn't have? Welcome to life as a cruiser, where RNG sometimes decides you must die now.

If DDs bother you so much, run secondaries. DDs hate those up close.

If DDs are such a problem, the OP should PLAY THEM, and learn about the weaknesses that go with the strengths. 

A balanced Perspective is incredibly useful, and incredibly rare. 

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1 hour ago, Thornir said:

If DDs are such a problem, the OP should PLAY THEM, and learn about the weaknesses that go with the strengths. 

A balanced Perspective is incredibly useful, and incredibly rare. 

Right? It's why I mained BBs regardless of being horribad at them for over a year. I had a knack for IJN DDs, but how can you hunt something without understanding the beast? Know thy enemy and all that. It's also why I took up RN CLs, too. Long term I found I didn't like the CL playstyle, so I tried US CAs, but started to realize something. Radar really isn't that scary if you're ready for it. This eventually gave me my love for IJN and french CAs, as I love me a big accurate gun. It's also a lot of why I have been maining CVs, honestly. I didn't pick up CV to use it, I just wanted to learn how to play against them.

I never expected to sleep with the enemy as it were, as I ended up loving CV so much I wanted Enterprise! It took me a few months to grind up 2 T10 CVs and a T8 CV from more or less scratch, to put my love into perspective. XD

It's funny the things one learns about themselves just by daring to try new things. Had I never taken up BB, I'd never have found my love for Jean Bart, Amagi, Georgia, Texas, Prinz Eitel Friedrich and Lyon. Had I never taken up CL, I'd never have found my love for Edinburgh and Boise, nor tried Russian CLs again and discovered my enjoyment of them. CA made me love post-buff IJN CAs, and I'm getting ready to go all the way up French CAs. CV taught me to love Lexington, Enterprise and Audacious. But, overall, if I stuck to just IJN DDs, I'd have probably rushed to T10 and quit, as I was struggling by T7.

Some say being a jack of all trades is a bad thing, but I say it's a great thing to be in a PvP setting, as you may be a master of none, but you know everything you might encounter. You know how your enemy ticks and how to make the ticking stop.

Edited by Shoggoth_pinup
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Put it this way, I "main" DD's and one of my previous clans would all log off if I said as was going to play anything other than a DD. 

 

Recently I have picked up a BB line and it is honestly stupid how much more simple the game play is when you compare all the things you have to consider while playing.  It took me nearly 2 years of try-harding to be able to semi-consistently finish on the top half of the scoreboard in a DD, in a BB I kinda started to expect it in the first 3 months. 

 

The most significant simplification (in a BB vs a DD) is you no longer need to keep track of the exact (at worst guestimated) position of generally between 2 and 5 ships per game  that can *insta negate your defenses* at over 8km range (unless you want them to) and 140knot planes are now just an annoyance rather than an Eye of Sauron.  Yes I still eat a spread of DD torps from time to time but I have yet to feel that DD's are OP in any way whatsoever.  I have however felt, in multiple games, like a drooling idiot on occasion removing a full health cruiser in 1 shot from 10km.  Now if only I can figure out how to citadel the damn BB's...

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10 hours ago, shadragon said:
Since coming back to the game, I'm seeing DD biased matchmaking with up to 5 destroyers per side. As I've been grinding up the US BB tiers, facing that number of DD's is onerous.
 
I'm not moaning about the matchmaking, but a straight up DD vs BB fight is heavily skewed to the destroyer and with that many DD's you will usually end up in just that situation, if not facing multiple DD's. With my T5 BB, I nailed a full health T6 DD (broadside 4 KM away) with twelve 320 mm (over a foot wide) HE shells. Six shells hit, taking it down to half health. I disabled his engine and torp rack, but he pressed R and was back in the game. With a ~26 second reload time on my main guns (and violent manuvering), I only got the one shot.
 
When within 7km of a DD (for the sake of argument), there needs to be better mechanics. A foot wide HE shell detonation will send torp launchers over the side. A close proximity detonation should stun the DD crew for at least a few seconds like in WoT. Do DD's flood? I've never seen that happen, but it should for a detonation near the waterline cracking open the hull or an AP shell going all the way through creating a foot wide hole on either side of the ship.
 
- Why not a new Captain skill, "Small Targets?" With this, when an enemy DD is visible within 7KM of your ship, your main battery reloads are 20% faster and do 20% more damage (due to motivated crew and close proximity firing). Secondaries are 10-15% faster reload and maybe damage as well.
 
- Or a flag with increased damage against a destroyer in close proximity and faster ammo swap from AP to HE. 
 
- With a stun mechanic for a close proximity detonation, where the DD captain has his R key grayed out for 5-10 seconds.
 
Outside of 7KM, advantage DD. However, if they come close, there should be balance there too. I thought it was worth a discussion.

You have my sympathies and accolades for trying to tackle this topic.  I'm still wiping the spittle out of my hair and icing my bruises from when I last brought t up.  Beware: the DD mafia will be descending upon you soon, if they haven't already.  Didn't you know it's historical fact that DDs won all the major naval battles of WWII, and this is the natural order of things?

People grumble about CVs, they grumble about 'HE-spamming' light cruisers, but say nothing of 12- to 16--torp spreads that can reload every 30-45 seconds.  It's curious.

As I said in another thread, when a single DD can take out 2 BBs in short thrift there's a problem.  But it's a problem that for some reason, is acceptable. It guess it appeals to the new player base, younger players that view the game more like a shooting gallery

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1 hour ago, Squib_Surefire said:

like a drooling idiot on occasion removing a full health cruiser in 1 shot from 10km.  Now if only I can figure out how to citadel the damn BB's...

re: the cruiser,  you did the same when you played DDs, but used torps..

How to citadel a BB?  Oh, so maybe there is more to it than being a 'drooling idiot', eh?

Edited by anonym_99qKhSFuxzP2

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9 hours ago, MutsuKaiNi said:

If anything BBs are too strong against DDs

Torps are easy to dodge and all a BB needs is get two shells hits and a DD has lost 1\4 of its health

2 torps and a low-to-mid BB has lost 1/4 of its health. Torps are easy to dodge?  Zig-zagging DDs are difficult to hit

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