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Kassimila

Yet more AA changes.....sigh

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WG, I really don't get it. Your entire player base keeps asking you for the same thing, yet you just keep fiddling with the damage dial as if it's going to produce a satisfactory result if you get it justtttt right. 

  • CV drivers don't want to play flying spreadsheets where they are pitted against an automated system that just does X damage per second.
  • BB,CA,DD drivers want to feel like they can actually do something about the flying menace that keeps trolling them all game. 

The solution to both of these problems is to make AA powerful, and manual. Then when planes kills someone, it really is there fault. The aim is in the hand of the player. You could actually make the dive bomber attack profiles accurate. CV players could actually manage to surprise someone. You could put DD air spotting range back to a reasonable level. Players would actually have to make a choice about if they want to focus on the sea or the air. You could give Japan stealthy planes, to add new tactics. It opens up the game play, and makes skill matter. 

 

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I and few other people suggested manual AA but WG doesn't want us to manually control AA because it would be adding a lot of micro managing. But we all know how balanced automated things are in WOWS. There is no middle ground, only happy and unhappy people.

 

WG now wants to introduce sub to the game, which is fine but ASW will most likely be something automated like AA and I bet it will become like CV. Hated

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I dunno about you but I only have one mouse and two hands.

I don't want to be trying to somehow use my mouse to shoot down airplanes while at the same time trying to use my mouse to shoot at another DD in a knife fight.

My other hand is busy changing my throttle and trying to steer my ship to avoid torpedos and gun fire.

Also, CVs have AA as well, it's pretty important to them.  I can't fly planes, dodge flak and line up drop timing on ships, while trying aim AA guns all at the same time.

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1 hour ago, Kassimila said:

WG, I really don't get it. Your entire player base keeps asking you for the same thing, yet you just keep fiddling with the damage dial as if it's going to produce a satisfactory result if you get it justtttt right. 

  • CV drivers don't want to play flying spreadsheets where they are pitted against an automated system that just does X damage per second.
  • BB,CA,DD drivers want to feel like they can actually do something about the flying menace that keeps trolling them all game. 

The solution to both of these problems is to make AA powerful, and manual. Then when planes kills someone, it really is there fault. The aim is in the hand of the player. You could actually make the dive bomber attack profiles accurate. CV players could actually manage to surprise someone. You could put DD air spotting range back to a reasonable level. Players would actually have to make a choice about if they want to focus on the sea or the air. You could give Japan stealthy planes, to add new tactics. It opens up the game play, and makes skill matter. 

 

Wait we see how it works with 8.7, as far as I understood players have to aim at the planes and click... Normally, this is the way it should work, players in ships aim and fire at enemies... The only thing that changes with planes is that damage is "automated", I would add some random factor so the outcome is not systematically the same % of planes... I don't get why people complain about micro management excess, that's probably what happens at war.

For CV AA, all this stays automated, CV player is not a CV captain but a squadron leader, I understand that was the idea of the rework, from captain to pilot.

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12 minutes ago, Burnsy said:

I dunno about you but I only have one mouse and two hands.

I don't want to be trying to somehow use my mouse to shoot down airplanes while at the same time trying to use my mouse to shoot at another DD in a knife fight.

My other hand is busy changing my throttle and trying to steer my ship to avoid torpedos and gun fire.

Also, CVs have AA as well, it's pretty important to them.  I can't fly planes, dodge flak and line up drop timing on ships, while trying aim AA guns all at the same time.

I dunno about you, but when I play random battles there seems to be 11 other people with me. Perhaps one of them can shoot at planes while you knife fight? CV's have CAP fighters, which can be adjusted to support manual AA. It also makes more sense, as I can't see a crew of a ship standing out on AA mounts while they are being slammed with repeated 5" shells. At least not and living for any amount of time worth mentioning. 

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2 hours ago, Kassimila said:

WG, I really don't get it. Your entire player base keeps asking you for the same thing, yet you just keep fiddling with the damage dial as if it's going to produce a satisfactory result if you get it justtttt right. 

  • CV drivers don't want to play flying spreadsheets where they are pitted against an automated system that just does X damage per second.
  • BB,CA,DD drivers want to feel like they can actually do something about the flying menace that keeps trolling them all game. 

The solution to both of these problems is to make AA powerful, and manual. Then when planes kills someone, it really is there fault. The aim is in the hand of the player. You could actually make the dive bomber attack profiles accurate. CV players could actually manage to surprise someone. You could put DD air spotting range back to a reasonable level. Players would actually have to make a choice about if they want to focus on the sea or the air. You could give Japan stealthy planes, to add new tactics. It opens up the game play, and makes skill matter. \

 

Of all the problems with the AA mechanics, that it's "not manual" isn't one of them.

I have zero interest in manual AA, it would be just like the useless priority system, but worse.

They're finally addressing one of the real problems in the next patch, getting rid of the variable minimum range bands on AA medium and large mounts. 

The big problem, though, is that AA scales too steeply between tiers, and too widely between ships of the same tier.  Blanket adjustments to AA move the floor or the ceiling, making bottom AA ships helpless against aircraft, or the top AA ships effectively immune to aircraft. 

"But I want to counter play!" manual AA is entirely tangential to that problem, and won't fix that problem. 

 

Edited by KilljoyCutter

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7 minutes ago, franz_von_goltz said:

Wait we see how it works with 8.7, as far as I understood players have to aim at the planes and click... Normally, this is the way it should work, players in ships aim and fire at enemies... The only thing that changes with planes is that damage is "automated", I would add some random factor so the outcome is not systematically the same % of planes... I don't get why people complain about micro management excess, that's probably what happens at war.

For CV AA, all this stays automated, CV player is not a CV captain but a squadron leader, I understand that was the idea of the rework, from captain to pilot.

I don't even get how they can claim 'excess'. There is what MAYBE 2 CVs in a match, each with one flight of planes at a time? Usually it's 1 CV, you're telling me people can't deal with 1 flight of planes every 45 seconds or so?

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20 minutes ago, Kassimila said:

I dunno about you, but when I play random battles there seems to be 11 other people with me.

You want to leave the choice of whether you die to a CV or not up to other random players in World of Warships, to save you?

Have you played this game? :Smile_teethhappy:

 

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Just now, Burnsy said:

You want to leave the choice of whether you die to a CV or not up to other random players in World of Warships to save you?

Have you played this game? :Smile_teethhappy:

That was my reaction as well.

Can't count on anyone else in this game, unless they're in a div with you maybe.

 

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6 minutes ago, KilljoyCutter said:

That was my reaction as well.

Can't count on anyone else in this game, unless they're in a div with you maybe.

 

Aye.  Truly manual AA isn't a thing that is going to happen with the way that this game works.  Humans don't have enough hands or the general ability to aim two different things at once.

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1 hour ago, Kassimila said:

I don't even get how they can claim 'excess'. There is what MAYBE 2 CVs in a match, each with one flight of planes at a time? Usually it's 1 CV, you're telling me people can't deal with 1 flight of planes every 45 seconds or so?

well, I would say half the players in this game can't even handle what they have to do now.....lol

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2 hours ago, franz_von_goltz said:

Wait we see how it works with 8.7, as far as I understood players have to aim at the planes and click... Normally, this is the way it should work, players in ships aim and fire at enemies... The only thing that changes with planes is that damage is "automated", I would add some random factor so the outcome is not systematically the same % of planes... I don't get why people complain about micro management excess, that's probably what happens at war.

For CV AA, all this stays automated, CV player is not a CV captain but a squadron leader, I understand that was the idea of the rework, from captain to pilot.

you dont have to be looking at the planes directly. All you do is make sure your aiming curser is on the side the planes are coming. So if your fighting someone on your left and a plane is coming from the right all you have to do is move your mouse center right  and then that side of the aa will get the boost. Actually  putting your aiming rectile on the plane doesnt do anything to boost the aa. So no your not really aiming at the planes just move the mouse so your briefly are looking in that half of the sector and now your upping that side.

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2 hours ago, AlcatrazNC said:

I and few other people suggested manual AA but WG doesn't want us to manually control AA because it would be adding a lot of micro managing. But we all know how balanced automated things are in WOWS. There is no middle ground, only happy and unhappy people.

 

WG now wants to introduce sub to the game, which is fine but ASW will most likely be something automated like AA and I bet it will become like CV. Hated

Yes I agree AA being manual will be too much micro managing just on the scale of it and nature of AA and aircraft.

Depth charges on the other hand will likely be able to be manually launched since they will be no more of a hassle than firing torpedoes are.

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Full manual control of AA would be too much. Full AI control is too little. But I've mostly given up trying to convince either WG or most of the forum that there are options in the middle.

FWIW, 0.8.7 priority sector is based around pointing the camera to the side of the ship with the planes and pressing ~. The "player skill" component is theoretically in knowing when and whether to push the button, because in principle, you could push it at a really stupid time just as the planes fly to the other side, and then be stuck with weakened AA for 10-15 seconds instead of strengthened. In reality, people are just going to pop it as soon as planes come into range, unless they're totally afk or tunnel visioned on something else. So it falls heavily on the "still mostly AI and spreadsheets" side of the scale.

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Manual AA is just a gimmick unlimited DFAA.  What is bad here is that it's not balanced well. Effectively, it's a rapid fire instant Damage done to a squadron.  More so, it might even bypass mountains, much like flak bursts. Sometimes I wonder if the islands themselves just have flak batteries on them manned by 40k Orks who forgot to not shoot.  Which is a heresy unto itself I think.

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6 hours ago, Kassimila said:

CV drivers don't want to play flying spreadsheets where they are pitted against an automated system that just does X damage per second.

The majority of the player base doesn't want to play against CVs, so BOO HOO!

6 hours ago, Kassimila said:

BB,CA,DD drivers want to feel like they can actually do something about the flying menace that keeps trolling them all game. 

Which is why we want the old AA and DFAA back.

4 hours ago, AlcatrazNC said:

WG now wants to introduce sub to the game, which is fine but ASW will most likely be something automated like AA and I bet it will become like CV. Hated

Those who refuse to learn from History are destined to repeat it.

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3 hours ago, Edgecase said:

Full manual control of AA would be too much. Full AI control is too little. But I've mostly given up trying to convince either WG or most of the forum that there are options in the middle.

FWIW, 0.8.7 priority sector is based around pointing the camera to the side of the ship with the planes and pressing ~. The "player skill" component is theoretically in knowing when and whether to push the button, because in principle, you could push it at a really stupid time just as the planes fly to the other side, and then be stuck with weakened AA for 10-15 seconds instead of strengthened. In reality, people are just going to pop it as soon as planes come into range, unless they're totally afk or tunnel visioned on something else. So it falls heavily on the "still mostly AI and spreadsheets" side of the scale.

As my friend @OlDirtyBoatstardpointed out, they've gone all the way back to manually selecting a squadron like in the old days. 

I guess the last 6 months of silly waste have been rendered existentially stoopid....

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The only people that want manual AA are CV griefers that want the good old days of dunking on whole teams with impunity to return.

Edited by Highlord
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4 hours ago, usspaul3 said:

you dont have to be looking at the planes directly. All you do is make sure your aiming curser is on the side the planes are coming. So if your fighting someone on your left and a plane is coming from the right all you have to do is move your mouse center right  and then that side of the aa will get the boost. Actually  putting your aiming rectile on the plane doesnt do anything to boost the aa. So no your not really aiming at the planes just move the mouse so your briefly are looking in that half of the sector and now your upping that side.

Ok. I'm more a CV player now, all I can say is that the game mechanics are fine now. As a CV player, I find that the game mechanics are quite fine now... I would just nerf a bit some of the ships, buff some others. Or at least, if so powerful, some "human action" required to target the planes. Otherwise, there will be "plane immune" ships, that is not good for the game in general. I have the feeling that now, the CVs are not "farm damaging machines", but more key contributors to victory. Spotting ennemies so friends can fire, protecting friends from enemy planes, hassling destroyers and not necessary killing them, supporting attacks when needed, terminating ill ships, CV can also "unlock" situations when BBs or CLs are hiding behind rocks.
Seems that 8.7 is fixing this including autopilot.
Still... the islands. It seems radars see through the islands... As does AA. Using islands is the best way to protect the planes from intense AA before a run or after a run. If BBs and CLs can play islands, so should the CVs.

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4 hours ago, Edgecase said:

Full manual control of AA would be too much. Full AI control is too little. But I've mostly given up trying to convince either WG or most of the forum that there are options in the middle.

FWIW, 0.8.7 priority sector is based around pointing the camera to the side of the ship with the planes and pressing ~. The "player skill" component is theoretically in knowing when and whether to push the button, because in principle, you could push it at a really stupid time just as the planes fly to the other side, and then be stuck with weakened AA for 10-15 seconds instead of strengthened. In reality, people are just going to pop it as soon as planes come into range, unless they're totally afk or tunnel visioned on something else. So it falls heavily on the "still mostly AI and spreadsheets" side of the scale.

And when there are tunnel visioned on something else, they will be torped and sunk:).

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Well the early version of subs has DDs automatically tossing depth charges -- It's participation trophy sub hunting just like it's participation trophy AA mechanic. You simply show up to battle and the game does the rest.  We're rapidly approaching a point where we'll just click a ship and a place on the map and the game will do the rest.

Edited by NoSoMo
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I still cant figure out how Def AA Cons will pare with these new mechanics? The boost of the Def AA is much longer then the boost of the new sector selection, so what happens when the sector goes on cooldown but my Def AA is still up? Do I get half effect of the Def AA?! And what if I change side while sector is on CD while my Def AA is still up?

And is it still so that enemy bombers must be inside you long range aura when you engage the new sector mechanics for the boost to work? So if I (in the mist of fighting 5 other surface ships and dodging torps), happen to activate the sector 1 second before the bombers go into my aura the entire AA thing goes to waste?

I just love the level of confusion WG manage to create with any kind of change/update/nerf/rework/or just new campain they implement.

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Gee, if only we had something simple and that worked, like I don't know, CTRL+Click on the planes you want to focus with your AA? Oh wait we did but WG took it away and now we have one disaster and mess after another as they try and fix what wasn't broken. 

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25 minutes ago, AdmiralThunder said:

Gee, if only we had something simple and that worked, like I don't know, CTRL+Click on the planes you want to focus with your AA? Oh wait we did but WG took it away and now we have one disaster and mess after another as they try and fix what wasn't broken. 

^So much this.  The old AA system wasn't great, but was more intuitive than this mess we have now.  I've yet to see a concise explanation on how the latest version is supposed to work.  I know there's that massive wall of text on the notes page.  But if it takes that much to explain it, they probably should have gone back to the drawing board with it.

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