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Admiral_Ocelot

German CV Tree

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I should also mention most of the information and ships described in this post came from a series of post around a year ago, the links embedded in this post have links that lead to them for those who want to see more information on them

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Considering all but a few of the soviet ships actually existed im sure this could easily be implemented into the game

Nice:Smile_honoring:

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I’d like to see more German CV’s if only so that when my clan goes up another clan in Naval Battles, I can actually use my CV since currently it’s grayed out.

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50 minutes ago, Admiral_Ocelot said:

 

 

 

linerGneisenau.thumb.jpg.16e47fffe26fa96b6010030295971ac5.jpg

KMS Elbe was going to be the conversion of the ocean liner Potsdam (the picture is of Gneisenau but Potsdam looks almost identical to this). Gneisenau/Jade never started conversion but Potsdam/Elbe recieved the 

Conversion was going to look like this:

kms_elbe.jpg.27274307e2d22dc9539ad306aab8e7b9.jpg

Specifications: 

Length: 203m (666')

Width:  27m (88' 6")

Displacement: 23,500 t (23,129 long tons)

Power and speed: experimental high-pressure Deschimag electro-steam turbines producing 26,000 horsepower through 2 screws, maximum speed of 21kn

Armament:   4x2 105mm Sk C/33 dual purpose guns, 5x2 37mm Sk C/30 anti-aircraft guns, and 8x4 20mm C/38 anti-aircraft guns

Complement: 12 Bf-109Ts, and 12 Ju-87Cs, but for game purposes the stock would be the Ar-197 for attackers, and Fi-167 for Dive Bombers/Torpedo Bombers, with the Bf-109T and Ju-87C being a researchable module for both Attackers and the Dive Bomber/Torpedo slots respectively. 

For more information on the Elbe and Jade I would recommend 

 

 I think I'd like to see Potsdam in her Ocean Liner configuration, more than as a flat top. But whatever; nice proposal! (I can't wait to see a German cv tech tree in game, though i think we'll have to wait until next year at the very earliest)

You might be interested in catching a copy of Simon Beerbaum's ebook, German Aircraft Carriers, which covers many of the designs and never built blueprints, from the 20s through to the end war period.

https://www.amazon.fr/German-Aircraft-Carriers-World-English-ebook/dp/B01HN25AZ2/ref=sr_1_5?__mk_fr_FR=ÅMÅŽÕÑ&keywords=german+aircraft+carriers&qid=1566352896&s=gateway&sr=8-5

51PoZKExq1L.jpg

it is a little dry to read, but packed full of info.

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12 minutes ago, LoveBote said:

 I think I'd like to see Potsdam in her Ocean Liner configuration, more than as a flat top. But whatever; nice proposal! (I can't wait to see a German cv tech tree in game, though i think we'll have to wait until next year at the very earliest)

You might be interested in catching a copy of Simon Beerbaum's ebook, German Aircraft Carriers, which covers many of the designs and never built blueprints, from the 20s through to the end war period.

https://www.amazon.fr/German-Aircraft-Carriers-World-English-ebook/dp/B01HN25AZ2/ref=sr_1_5?__mk_fr_FR=ÅMÅŽÕÑ&keywords=german+aircraft+carriers&qid=1566352896&s=gateway&sr=8-5

51PoZKExq1L.jpg

it is a little dry to read, but packed full of info.

that looks like a intresting book, ill give it a read!

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1 minute ago, Admiral_Ocelot said:

that looks like a intresting book, ill give it a read!

it's fairly cheap, dense, badly translated, (or badly written), but it has a huge amount of information.

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Line Concept - Essentially, this, like most of it's other lines, is sort of geared to beat up on DD's and cruisers. Similar to USN line 2 in that it focuses on rockets and bombs but unlike USN 2 (least it's primary concept version) this operates strictly F/R's and DB's with 1 group using AP and another using HE. Another change over USN is that Germany starts with a larger, harder hitting rocket (smaller than TT's but still) and later on gets smaller, low damage/high quantity rockets, while also increasing number of the larger rocket with a new type. While I don't know what rework GZ is like, the aim points would be dialed in similar at least pre-rework GZ. Least the earliest tiers with single bombs (and gets larger for larger bombs). Multiple bombs would likely have an increase as well, maybe not as much as larger bombs. he ships themselves will lack a bit in short/mid range autocannons, however they have a larger number of DP guns generally tier for tier, so better range flak based defense and defense against any DD's that get close enough. Of the lines, this will likely be the most consistent line as you go through tiers in terms of change. Generally speaking, it has AP and HE - it's basically a case of how big of a boom do you want when it hits where as other lines are more "Do I take this type, do I take that type, which torpedo do I want" etc. 

Plane considerations - Bf-109 (multiple marks, carrier converted), Fw-190 (same as 109's), Ju-87, Ju-187 ("Super Stuka" Project), Ta-152. 

Ordnance - Wefer-Granate 21, Panzerblitz 1 & 3 (R4M conversion to ground attack rocket of 80 mm and 210 mm), HE bombs - SC 250, 500, and 1000, AP bombs - PC 250, 500, and 1000. Light consideration of PC 500 RS (rocket assisted AP bomb, 1000 lb).

German CV Line
 

Spoiler

 

Tier 5 - Weser (Seydlitz Conversion)

4x 109E/T (2x2), 3x Ju87C (1x3), 3x Ju-87C (1x3)

2x WG-21 on 109's, 1x PC 250 (slot 2) and 1x SC 250 (slot 3) on Ju-87's 

Tier 6 - Jade Class

4x 109E/T (2x2 or 1x4), 6x Ju-87C (2x3), 6x Ju-87C (2x3)

The same really as tier 5, just more planes much like other nations

Tier 7 - I(1942)/Europa

8x 109G/T (2x4),  9x Ju-87D (3x3), 9x Ju-87D (3x3)

109's same rockets as previous tier, Ju-87's have option for PC and SC 500 bombs (more damage/lower accuracy)

Tier 8 - De Grasse/II

8x 190A-4 (2x4),  8x 190G-1 (2x4), 8x 190G-1 (2x4)

A-4's gain option of 10x PB-1's (5 under each wing like so), roughly similar to UK RP-3 rocket damage wise (maybe slightly more). 190G-1's option of 2x PC/SC 250 or single PC/SC 500 or 1000

Tier 9 - Strasser Class (Planned change to GZ design, abandoned as GZ was too far along)

12x 190A-8 (3x4), 12x 190G-8 (3x4), 12x 190G-8 (3x4)

Option of 4x PB-3's replaces WG-21's (increased pen, hair more accuracy or increased numbers adds to it), G-8's option of 3x PC/SC-250, 1x SC/PC 500, 1x SC/PC 1000

Tier 10 - Plan Z phase II CV (Working name "Valkyrie Class")

16x Ta-152 (4x4), 12x Ju-187 (4x3), 12x Ju-187 (4x3)

Increase number of PB-1's to 12, PB-3's to 6 on Ta-152. Ju-187 options of 4x 250 SC/PC 250 bombs, 2x SC/PC 500 bombs, 1x SC/PC 1000 bombs. If jet's allowed obvious alternative Me-262 (used with the PB-1's). Also where I'd open up option of PC 500 RS - conceptually more accuracy (smaller ordnance, more of them) and lower damage (obvious) than PC 1000. PC/SC 500 intended as anti-cruiser for the most part, so RS trade off would be increased pen, allowing to citadel BB's, however, overpen city on DD's and most cruisers (something like a BC may still have enough the bomb arms).


 

 

Line Notes:

  Hide contents

 

F/R's and tier 8/9 190 DB's use 'Finger Four" Formation, while Ju-87/187's use "Vic" formation. 

Starting at tier 5 - It's not that I can't go pick something for tier 4, rearrange things, etc - but that to me, tier 4 should be devoid of rockets, and by comparison, Germany had a much later start really on CV's. So it feels better to skip tier 4 with these, and go straight to 5, sort of representing that late start. On the one hand - this could have some issues with player learning, especially if they were to have the Ju-87's attack as they actually did (you'd have to fly past the target as it rolls over to double back) though hopefully rockets and bombs aside from being simple enough, those that go to play the line have some experience in other CV lines.

Strasser info + approximate AA/DP gun locations

Spoiler

 

During construction of Graf Zeppelin, consideration was given to removing the 150 cm guns, and instead, adding sponsons with 10.5 cm guns as well as some other tweaks. By this time however, GZ was so far along they'd have to tear half the ship apart and rebuild it, which was going to be both costly and complicated. Had it not been scrapped out right Hull B, to which some sources attribute it may have been called "Peter Strasser" could have been completed to these new designs hence "Strasser Class". Aside from possibly increased air wing capabilities, increased long range plane/anti-ship defence, further AA defense in increased autocannons, possibly some changes in other defense such as anti-torpedo. I'm uncertain as to exact tonnage difference from GZ - when I first proposed this ship as part of a Full German line 3 years ago (okay well, 12 days short of 3 years ago) I had actually done the math at the very least on the weight of removed 15 cm guns and that either the additional 10.5 cm or the 10.5 cm and all the smaller caliber AA would be equal to the weight of the removed guns for at least on that front a net change of 0. However 3 years later I can't find my notes as to which it was.  However it may be closer to the types original displacement, as when they were observing the Anglo-German Naval Agreement GZ was scaled back so they could build 2 CV's.

Armament would consist of 21x 10.5 cm guns (9x1, 6x2), 36x 3.7 cm guns (18x2) and 48x 2 cm guns (12x4). Approximate positions of both original (GZ layout) as well as the additional weapons in the design estimated below (based on the info I had at my disposal 3 years ago)

vmqaRMA.png

Of note is the 6x twin turrets by the island on the starboard side. Much like Lexington, there is a bit of an issue of guns firing over the flight deck. While it is highly unlikely, it would be interesting if Wargaming could actually factor this fact in and that GZ actually had slightly better AA Defence on it's starboard side at range normally, and slightly  weaker to port. 

 

"Valkyrie Class" background and info

Spoiler

 

 

Other than the fact that there was an intent for ships after GZ and Strasser, having no knowledge of any other design - this is something I have come up with completely on my own years ago to be top of the line based on the other various German designs, design considerations, thinking, etc. As well as some playing with the tendency for some German designs to become rather large, border lining on excessive. (insert "compensating joke here). This is where the A-GNA has been thrown completely out the window so no real limits. Ideally GZ and/or it's counterpart Strasser have been active, acquiring experience and info, as well as communication with Japan and information gathered on US and British designs. They'd maybe have info on Malta and Midway. And decided that they would do it "Bigger and Better".

The overall look would be almost a fusion of GZ and a ship like Malta or Midway. The bow no longer open but the flight deck extended to fully cover it and then a bit further past as seen on most CV's. The stern as well a bit more closed off. The flare out near the bow -  by the 2 edge catapults (possibly a third in the middle) remain. The island would be a more streamline single unit, as seen on more recent carriers at the time and ships in development like Midway and Malta. The ship would be 350m in length, 46.5-47m beam, draught of about 10-11m. Displacement (best guess) around 50000 tons. Top Speed of 28-30 knots. As far as Armament I have 2 concepts.

The primary one is a "Standard" setup of DP and Autocannons -

8x 12.8 cm guns - 4 twin guns, 2 on each side just off the flight deck at the corners in sponsons.

16x 10.5 cm guns - 8 twin turrets, 4 per side in sponsons.

36-40x 3.7 cm guns - 18-20 twin barrel mounts - 4 in and around the island, the other 14-16 evenly dispersed along the sides

32x 2 cm guns - 8 quad-barrel mounts. 4 amidships - 1 each a bit fore and aft of the island, and the other 2 across from them on the port side, and the other 4 on/around the island. 

The somewhat insane alternative I'll call the "Salem style" setup - with no Autocannons. 

In all likelihood this would be the same in terms of number of 12.8 and 10.5 cm guns as well as placement, maybe a couple extra 10.5's, but where it would differ is that it's shortest range AA guns would be a battery of DP 8.8 cm guns. I have no exact number on these (12x 8.8 cm guns, on top of 8x 12.8 cm and 16x 10.5 cm guns would give it the same number of barrels as Salem).

Spoiler

 

As for a ship description -

"Based on previous experience building and designing the Graf Zeppelin class carriers, as well as information gathered throughout the war from other experiences and intelligence on the latest allied ships, the Valkyrie class were built to square off against ships in development such as the British Malta and American Midway class carriers. Designed with better protection, a larger air wing of the latest aircraft, and a further enhanced dual purpose battery to counter threats from both the Air and Sea, the Valkyrie class was the most advanced German carrier design of the time. 

To those wondering "Why did you choose Valkyrie?" - Basically, I wanted to make sure the name was safe, no ties to anything or anyone that could potentially cause a headache for someone. So, first thing popped into my mind - Valkyries. A winged Cavalry that that would sometimes join battles, hampering the enemy - something a carrier can certainly do and be. If anyone has a better suggestion on a name - I'm all ears.

 

 

Try to cut down on space with spoilers, I start at 5 because Germany was a bit late even starting real CV development. Tier 5-8 are all ships that work started on or were designed, Strasser is based on proposed changes to GZ but were not used due to how far the ship was in construction and the second ship scrapped, the 10 is the only fake based on previous designs, intel they may have had from spies and other sources, so yeah, a fairly legitimate line with only 1 real fake - and I even use actual planes and ordnance that were made and flew/used or were in development. 

 

Why I hammer Wargaming on this even's only nonsense - I have this and at least ground work of ship/tier for 2 full USN, IJN and UK fleet carrier lines, and some evens only/possible small branches. 

 

https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/180691-wanderinghosts-cv-mega-thread-full-lines-when-possible-premiums-etc-continual-wip/

Link to the full thread I started on but have taken a break on for several reasons, including loss of a significant portion of notes and research on my old laptop. 

 

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A Line of German Carriers when none existed?  No.

We can disparage the RU BB Line for having so many paper ships in there but at least some of them existed, whereas for German Carriers it was only Graf Zeppelin and even then she never entered service.

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7 hours ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

I'd prefer the Aquila before we see more German carriers...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_aircraft_carrier_Aquila

Honestly that looks pretty cool but I don't think Italian Aircraft Carriers should be added until a full Italian tree comes.

7 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

A Line of German Carriers when none existed?  No.

We can disparage the RU BB Line for having so many paper ships in there but at least some of them existed, whereas for German Carriers it was only Graf Zeppelin and even then she never entered service.

May I remind you that Seydlitz/Weser and Potsdam/Elbe both had carrier conversions attempted, and Weser was almost at the point of having the flight deck installed,  and even then it is still more real then the Roon and the Hindenburg, two ships that were literally made by War Gaming. I also feel like the German tree doesn't have too many paper ships, only having 10 (excluding Premiums) The Russian BB Line alone has 9 paper ships, so I don't see any problems regarding that

This would only add around a good 3 and a half paper ships into the game

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