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Thinkweis

Please stop rewarding cowards

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Every fight now is a line of BBs in a rush to hide behind A or C. The entire mid is empty. The people that are actually trying to win will play correct, and maybe they leave a few with less than 50% health. The cowards wait until the real fighting is over and finish the kills. We all lose, but they get rewarded for 'Destroyed' ships. Who wins in this, the MVP of the losing side. I swear I'm going to volley a couple strings for torpedos at them for playing in such a cowardly way.

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I've found that if the strategy I was employing to win a game wasn't winning the games, then look at the players around me to see why they are winning and employ their strategies.

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6 minutes ago, Lexington_MuseumO7 said:

I've found that if the strategy I was employing to win a game wasn't winning the games, then look at the players around me to see why they are winning and employ their strategies.

This. :cap_like:

I, specifically, watch Flambass. He plays hours and hours of WOWS and maintains a super unicum status, even in solo random games. His videos are well worth careful analysis.

Don't equate "camping" with cowardice either. There are times to rush in and times to hold back.

Edited by Snargfargle
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They aren't Winning, they are camping for half dead reds, pick one off before they die, and get rewarded for it. I know the difference between strategy, and being afraid of the conflict. 

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6 minutes ago, Thinkweis said:

I know the difference between strategy, and being afraid of the conflict.

Do you really though? One of the most consistent differences between mid-tier (5-7) and high-tier (8-10) play in this game is that charges into the enemy start to become much, much more dangerous because the guns start getting bigger and more accurate. It sounds like you're hitting that threshold now, where mid-tier rushdown strats stop working, and you have to start thinking about when and how to advance more deliberately.

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11 minutes ago, Thinkweis said:

They aren't Winning, they are camping for half dead reds, pick one off before they die, and get rewarded for it. I know the difference between strategy, and being afraid of the conflict. 

I was in the Army. In warfare, it's a "winning" strategy to keep some of your units in reserve. When the enemy has been weakened, you then send in the fresh troops, who stand a better chance of dealing a killing blow to the worn-out enemy. The appearance of a full-health battleship, when most of the remaining enemy is on low health, can be a game winner if timed right. Also, it's not always the case that the full-health battleship has been doing nothing all match either. He may have racked up tens of thousands of points of damage firing undetected behind islands or at long range.

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13 minutes ago, Thinkweis said:

They aren't Winning, they are camping for half dead reds, pick one off before they die, and get rewarded for it. I know the difference between strategy, and being afraid of the conflict. 

The man with a sword probably felt the same about the longbow. The man with the longbow likely felt the same about the man with the long rifle. Weapons change. Tactics change with them. There are a lot of players here with years of experience and many thousands of games who went through the same process you are facing now. High-tier games employ weapons that are much more devastating. High-tier tactics reflect that.

If you do not like high-tier games do what a lot of others do. Stick to mid-tier. Play what is fun for you.

But calling others cowards for doing what works and expecting the game and thousands of players to change to suit your preference... that doesn't make a bit of sense.

Youtube is a great resource if you want to learn more about the game. So is the WoWS Wiki. It is my belief that to do well with this game in the higher tiers some skull sweat must be employed well before pressing "BATTLE."

Respects,

Am

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You guys aren't listening. I'm not saying "sit back" I'm saying "Every one of them runs away from battles where we have stronger numbers. 

I'm Army too. He isn't sitting behind an island sniping. There are 5 battleships bouncing around off each other on a single tile on the side of the map where they are out of range of anything they could be shooting at. 

You can continue to be contrarian, but you are representing strategies that are not in play. 

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2 minutes ago, Amracil said:

The man with a sword probably felt the same about the longbow. The man with the longbow likely felt the same about the man with the long rifle. Weapons change. Tactics change with them. There are a lot of players here with years of experience and many thousands of games who went through the same process you are facing now. High-tier games employ weapons that are much more devastating. High-tier tactics reflect that.

If you do not like high-tier games do what a lot of others do. Stick to mid-tier. Play what is fun for you.

But calling others cowards for doing what works and expecting the game and thousands of players to change to suit your preference... that doesn't make a bit of sense.

Youtube is a great resource if you want to learn more about the game. So is the WoWS Wiki. It is my belief that to do well with this game in the higher tiers some skull sweat must be employed well before pressing "BATTLE."

Respects,

Am

It doesn't 'work'. Our team loses, but they get some bonuses because it's a 1hp kill is worth more than a well fought battle where a teammate gets the kill. The points are geared too much toward individual minor accomplishment over 'winning'.

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6 minutes ago, Thinkweis said:

It doesn't 'work'. Our team loses, but they get some bonuses because it's a 1hp kill is worth more than a well fought battle where a teammate gets the kill. The points are geared too much toward individual minor accomplishment over 'winning'.

There are many people at all tiers that do not know how to play the game. And there will (plainly) be many games in which you will be apoplectic over what appear terrible decisions made by others. Sometimes your feelings will be justified. But not always.

I don't get the sense that any of what has been said here is contrarian. We can dissect individual tactical decisions in individual games. And in many of these you will likely be right. Sometimes players do sit back behind islands doing nothing. But many times we simply cannot see what they are doing, unless our own ship has already been sunk. In general, referring to your original comments, I believe my comments, and the comments of others in this thread, stand on their own merits.

My hope is that you will continue to play for a long, long time. My guess is that if you do, you will likely change how you feel about this. At least a little.

Respects,

Am

Edited by Amracil

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1 minute ago, Amracil said:

There are many people at all tiers that do not know how to play the game. And there will (plainly) be many games in which you will be apoplectic over what appear terrible decisions made by others. Sometimes your feelings will be justified. But not always.

I don't get the sense that any of what has been said here is contrarian. We can dissect individual tactical decisions in individual games. And in many of these you will likely be right. Sometimes players do sit back behind islands doing nothing. But many times we simply cannot see what they are doing, unless our own ship has already been sunk. In general, referring to your original comments, I believe my comments, and the comments of others in this thread, stand on their own merits.

 My hope is that you will continue to play for a long, long time. My guess is that if you do, you will likely change how you feel about this. At least a little.

Respects,

Am

I'll see about screen capturing so I can show you. I like the game a lot, and like it specifically because of the variety of strategies that can be surprising and effective, and that is why it bothers me so much. They are allowing the team loss for their individual gain. It's a low integrity play. That being said, I clearly haven't illustrated the battlefield properly and will see about giving you an example.

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2 minutes ago, Thinkweis said:

I'll see about screen capturing so I can show you. I like the game a lot, and like it specifically because of the variety of strategies that can be surprising and effective, and that is why it bothers me so much. They are allowing the team loss for their individual gain. It's a low integrity play. That being said, I clearly haven't illustrated the battlefield properly and will see about giving you an example.

They arent really gaining much, at least what you are describing. Kill stealing doesnt give you much. And winning the game in general gives an XP bonus to the team. Hopefully they figure that out,  if what you are saying is true.

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14 minutes ago, Thinkweis said:

I'll see about screen capturing so I can show you. I like the game a lot, and like it specifically because of the variety of strategies that can be surprising and effective, and that is why it bothers me so much. They are allowing the team loss for their individual gain. It's a low integrity play. That being said, I clearly haven't illustrated the battlefield properly and will see about giving you an example.

There are some players here willing to evaluate your games, if you are interested in that. Though they would likely only evaluate your play, not that of others.

Also, I think you may have a mistaken impression of how XP rewards are determined. It is not all about kills. It is about proportional damage, capping, and a number of other things. You can read about it here. And there are other links on the Wiki that explain in further detail.

Edit to add (from the wiki "Base Earnings" page):

In-game Actions

  • The greatest base earnings come from damage done to enemy ships.
  • The rewards for damage is determined by the percentage of the target ship's hit points removed, not the amount of raw damage done. Removing 90% of a destroyer's HP will generate the same base earnings as removing 90% of battleship's HP (assuming that they are of same tier).
  • The damage award scales depending on the tier disparity between ships. More is earned for damaging a higher tiered than a lower tiered ship.

 

Respects,

Am

 

Edited by Amracil

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A couple more things. First, this game (imo), if we look only at mini-map ship positioning, is a great example of what you are talking about. If we looked only at the positioning of my team in accordance with your theory at say the 5, 10, and 15 minute marks it would seem that a loss was inevitable. And it could have been. But my team mates, despite "hiding behind C," were not cowards. They were waiting for an opportunity. I was able to help provide one, and they pushed up and capitalized on it. Sometimes that is what it takes. Sometimes even that is not enough. But either way, it is not necessarily cowardice. Sometimes an experienced player can know a YOLO suicide rush when they see one, and will wait until they see an opportunity. Have a watch and I am curious to know what you think.

 

And second, if you were not aware, there is a great site that tracks all our combat stats. You can find it here. While some will use it to bludgeon others, I do not encourage that. I encourage you to look at your own stats, whatever they are, and find ways to improve, improve, improve. That challenge has been, for me, enough to keep me around for a very long time.

Respects,

Am

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2 hours ago, Thinkweis said:

You guys aren't listening. I'm not saying "sit back" I'm saying "Every one of them runs away from battles where we have stronger numbers. 

I'm Army too. He isn't sitting behind an island sniping. There are 5 battleships bouncing around off each other on a single tile on the side of the map where they are out of range of anything they could be shooting at. 

You can continue to be contrarian, but you are representing strategies that are not in play. 

Do you have replays to support your claims?

Do you have personal knowledge of the players in question tactics or is it your opinion on what they are doing.

Yes, some players do exactly what you are saying but I find it far less than what posts in the forums would lead you to believe.

 

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Tactic fails I have seen

  • The conga line to one side or cap
    • Some times it works, must times well... You know...
  • The crack run in two brothers
    • Some guys know how to use the crack to win..
    • Using the crack in Random game mode a little to early
    • Going down the crack alone
    • Going down the crack  EARLY in Domination mode.
  • BBs not pushing...
  • BBs pushing a tad to late...
  • BBs forgetting their brave pills/man pants when no red DDs are alive.
  • cruisers not hunting DDs...
  • cruisers (the high caliber gun ones) not hunting red cruisers..
  • Slow BBs (like a NM) taking the Norwegian cruise way instead of fighting/supporting
  • ANY SHIP, I do mean any ship regardless of class... Ending up at the A, B, I, H, 1, 2, 9 or 10 line
  • BBs playing beyond 10km from a nearest cap in Domination mode.
  • DDs not spotting first... 
  • Any ship, NOT KNOWING how to play the game mode...
  • Sky cancer not sinking DDs.
  • Players who DMG farm instead of sinking the priority target ship

I can go on and on... But its the basic complaints as to why wins turn into loses for me.

Edited by Navalpride33
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5 hours ago, Thinkweis said:

Every fight now is a line of BBs in a rush to hide behind A or C. The entire mid is empty. The people that are actually trying to win will play correct, and maybe they leave a few with less than 50% health. The cowards wait until the real fighting is over and finish the kills. We all lose, but they get rewarded for 'Destroyed' ships. Who wins in this, the MVP of the losing side. I swear I'm going to volley a couple strings for torpedos at them for playing in such a cowardly way.

The rewards for merely finishing off badly wounded ships to get the kill aren't really high.  You get a lot better rewards for doing a lot of damage.  But you also get rewarded well if you do a lot of damage to individual ships.  What I mean here is this.  If you do 100k damage spread across 5 ships, 20k damage to a 100k tier 10 BB isn't going to give you much in the way of rewards.  However, if you do 20k damage to a 21+k HP DD at tier 10, that will yield a lot better rewards because you've done a lot more damage relative to the HP pool of that ship.  In practical terms, this is why a DD can earn excellent XP even though he may not have done that much overall damage.  The DD has probably done a high percentage of damage to only 2-3 enemy DDs, perhaps sinking 1-2 of them nearly from full health.  This is why hunting enemy DDs can be such a rewarding thing for DD players, and it's also a good thing for their teams since removing enemy DDs from play is never a bad thing from a team perspective.

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Improvise, adapt, overcome.

In response to a growing number of campers, I’ve started playing ships that are perfect for harvesting campers.   KGV is a particular favorite of mine.   Camp all you want, I’ll burn you to the waterline and move on.   Lol

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7 hours ago, Thinkweis said:

Every fight now is a line of BBs in a rush to hide behind A or C. The entire mid is empty. The people that are actually trying to win will play correct, and maybe they leave a few with less than 50% health. The cowards wait until the real fighting is over and finish the kills. We all lose, but they get rewarded for 'Destroyed' ships. Who wins in this, the MVP of the losing side. I swear I'm going to volley a couple strings for torpedos at them for playing in such a cowardly way.

We need the decreasing diameter fire circle from rogue wave in every mode.

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7 hours ago, Thinkweis said:

You guys aren't listening. I'm not saying "sit back" I'm saying "Every one of them runs away from battles where we have stronger numbers. 

I'm Army too. He isn't sitting behind an island sniping. There are 5 battleships bouncing around off each other on a single tile on the side of the map where they are out of range of anything they could be shooting at. 

You can continue to be contrarian, but you are representing strategies that are not in play. 

Here you go:

 

 

 

All said...these are with brawlers.  Some BBs the best strat is to sit back and rain terror.  I don't push like this much in Musashi or Yamato.  You can often sit back and kick from mid to long range before pushing up.  But every game is different.  Every map.  Deployments, etc.

Edited by Soshi_Sone
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I’m curious to see a couple replays of these battles the OP played- I don’t think I’ve ever seen a player who knows the game better than the OP does and look forward to a case study in his tactical brilliance. 

Edited by _ENO_
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4 minutes ago, _ENO_ said:

I’m curious to see a couple replays of these battles- I don’t think I’ve ever seen a player who knows the game better than the OP does and look forward to a case study in his tactical brilliance. 

Do you think it used to be a balanced response on this forum, or did it have a Tumbler style dive, but with d-bags?

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8 hours ago, Thinkweis said:

Every fight now is a line of BBs in a rush to hide behind A or C. The entire mid is empty. The people that are actually trying to win will play correct, and maybe they leave a few with less than 50% health. The cowards wait until the real fighting is over and finish the kills. We all lose, but they get rewarded for 'Destroyed' ships. Who wins in this, the MVP of the losing side. I swear I'm going to volley a couple strings for torpedos at them for playing in such a cowardly way.

The middle is dicier because of the ability to be cross shot from 2 sides. In a BB I typically always go to one flank or the other. If you got people just all Goin mid on your team, you'll get flanked.

Here's a guide on playing the flank. 

If you give up the flank, more than likely a loss. 

 

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5 minutes ago, Thinkweis said:

Do you think it used to be a balanced response on this forum, or did it have a Tumbler style dive, but with d-bags?

No idea what this means. I’m looking for replays. 

Should be easy- you say it happens every game. 

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8 hours ago, Thinkweis said:

Every fight now is a line of BBs in a rush to hide behind A or C. The entire mid is empty. The people that are actually trying to win will play correct, and maybe they leave a few with less than 50% health. The cowards wait until the real fighting is over and finish the kills. We all lose, but they get rewarded for 'Destroyed' ships. Who wins in this, the MVP of the losing side. I swear I'm going to volley a couple strings for torpedos at them for playing in such a cowardly way.

Welcome to the arcade......

The vast majority of the players in this game play casually, 78% of the player base averages less than 1 game a day. 92% average less than 3.3 games per day.

Your expectations don't match the reality of the player base...sorry.

Spoiler

H75kkN0.png

 

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