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SlartiBartFastE2

Ranked meta shows unhealthy state of cruisers

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So here's a thing: current state of CA/CL vs DD is wrong. Try to kill Kitakaze in CA/CL and you'd have to agree with me.

Kitakaze vs BB somewhat ok - DD should be a threat to BB. But the fact that DD eat CL/CA is plain sad. I do enjoy ranked - because they teach me how to play better, but I don't like current meta because there is clear winning type of ships (DD) and that should never be the case.

I think Ibuki, Roon, St.L needs serious adjustment, other cruisers a little. Once CA/CL would' be buffer - BB will show up

What I would suggest is buffing CA/CL sonars. 

 

What do you think?

Edited by SlartiBartFastE2
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Those DD's you complain of aren't exactly DD's... they're Destroyer leaders. Small cruisers... sort of.

It's super fun when you think you can kill a French DD in a cruiser and you go broadside only to discover you're being repeatedly citadel-ed from 12kms away... huh? :)

Surprise!!

Edited by ElectroVeeDub
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10 minutes ago, ElectroVeeDub said:

Those DD's you complain of aren't exactly DD's... they're Destroyer leaders. Small cruisers... sort of.

It's super fun when you think you can kill a French DD in a cruiser and you go broadside only to discover you're being repeatedly citadel-ed from 12kms away... huh? :)

Surprise!!

I'm not quite sure about Mogador yet - I don't have one and their impact on meta currently hard to evaluate - too few of them overall and in ranked they played mostly by superunicums which just don't give clear info. But this thing eating CL is wrong

Edited by SlartiBartFastE2

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Kitakaze isnt a destroyer...its a cruiser without a citadel.

IFHE needs to go away.

WG development staff need to understand their class roles and stick to them more diligently.

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1 minute ago, SlartiBartFastE2 said:

I'm not quite sure about Mogador yet - I don't have one and their impact on meta currently hard to evaluate - too few of them overall and in ranked they played mostly by superunicums which just don't give clear info. But this thing eating CL is wrong

I don't have a Mogador either, but if it's like Le Terrible... it can rain AP shells from long range that absolutely wreck silly cruisers who go broadside. I was using one tonight with success in clan battles. Le Terrible works well at evicting island humping cruisers who spam radar.

The problem is CL players aren't using their heads. They see a DD... they pitch a tent, go full stupid, broadside and try to kill the DD with floaty shells. They think it's an "easy" kill... and that's precisely how they end up dead or severely damaged.

 

 

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Yeah cruisers are definitely on the weaker side in this season of ranked, but at least they are still as strong as ever in clan battles.....

 

oh, wait.... nm

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I don't know why I was a cruiser main. I started getting into DD play last couple of weeks and my win rate has increased a lot. DDs have so much control over the map and has the most carrying potential. 

 

Have 3 ships pushing a side in a cruiser? Better find an island and camp.

DDs? Stay out of CE range and spam torps. Hit a ship with flood, then get prem fire. Rinse and repeat. 

Edited by Legio_X_

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It's the smaller teams and closer ranges. Not good for cruisers. 

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2 hours ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Kitakaze isnt a destroyer...its a cruiser without a citadel.

IFHE needs to go away.

WG development staff need to understand their class roles and stick to them more diligently.

So, much the same as I do with CV whiners, I assumed you had no games in DDs. I was right. 98 games with Nicholas being your top DD does not qualify you to talk about DDs.

Don't whine about a tech tree ship or line being OP if you've never used it. If it bothers you so much, GO GET SOME DDs. Stop endorsing this constant buffing and nerfing when you have no clue what you are saying. It is that kind of moaning that got IFHE implemented in the first place.

The game can and will autocorrect itself, if WOWS would just stop constantly making major changes in response to a couple crybabies. IFHE is just as good for CAs as it is for DDs.

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9 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

It's the smaller teams and closer ranges. Not good for cruisers. 

This. Plus, most of the T9 DDs, prem and tech, are just nasty, while the cruiser counterparts, aside from the Super Heavy Cruisers, simply aren't. Most of the tech tree cruisers are at best side-grades of the T8 cruisers, while the T9 DD's are pretty much all vast upgrades over the T8 DD's.

 

Also, it isn't the DD's that are keeping the cruiser population low, it's the presence of so many Musashi's, because they don't even bother to laugh at the armor of cruisers, they simply ignore that it's even there to begin with.

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i think you will find that majority of higher level players play dd more because it has more of an impact in winning games in ranked as opposed to cruisers and battleships. The average player does not know how to cap and win games they just see a red boat and shoot it like a caveman.  

The constant crying for ships to be buffed is unhealthy for the game especially considering the ones crying for ships to be buffed dont know how to play the game.

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Normal Tier IX Cruisers were never that good to begin with, even in Randoms.  Not surprisingly, only the Super Cruisers are doing any decently in IX Ranked.

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/season/season13/ship_avg_na.html

You're most definitely seeing it in how much people take BBs, DDs over Cruisers.  Only Alaska is showing up in decent numbers, alongside decent performance.

In Battles played, Musashi alone almost has as many as almost all Cruisers put together.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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4 hours ago, ElectroVeeDub said:

The problem is CL players aren't using their heads. They see a DD... they pitch a tent, go full stupid, broadside and try to kill the DD with floaty shells. They think it's an "easy" kill... and that's precisely how they end up dead or severely damaged.

OK, so what tactics are you recommending? 

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4 hours ago, War_Maggot said:

So, much the same as I do with CV whiners, I assumed you had no games in DDs. I was right. 98 games with Nicholas being your top DD does not qualify you to talk about DDs.

Don't whine about a tech tree ship or line being OP if you've never used it. If it bothers you so much, GO GET SOME DDs. Stop endorsing this constant buffing and nerfing when you have no clue what you are saying. It is that kind of moaning that got IFHE implemented in the first place.

The game can and will autocorrect itself, if WOWS would just stop constantly making major changes in response to a couple crybabies. IFHE is just as good for CAs as it is for DDs.

Nice troll. Choosing to smear me instead of deal with the point is a bad sign for your argument.

Do you deny that Kitakaze has more DPM than most if not all cruisers? Do you deny that she has this ability with better protection (no citadel and smoke ability) than most cruisers?

The defining feature of most light cruisers in this game is their firepower per minute. Giving a DD better firepower without the drawbacks of a cruiser is just idiotic game balancing.

The Kitakaze can perform the role of both cruiser and DD. Why bring a cruiser?

This isnt about me wanting certain classes buffed or nerfed. This is me educating you on WHY ranked is light on cruisers and heavy on Kitakazes. The Kitakaze can do both roles.

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33 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Nice troll. Choosing to smear me instead of deal with the point is a bad sign for your argument.

Do you deny that Kitakaze has more DPM than most if not all cruisers? Do you deny that she has this ability with better protection (no citadel and smoke ability) than most cruisers?

The defining feature of most light cruisers in this game is their firepower per minute. Giving a DD better firepower without the drawbacks of a cruiser is just idiotic game balancing.

The Kitakaze can perform the role of both cruiser and DD. Why bring a cruiser?

This isnt about me wanting certain classes buffed or nerfed. This is me educating you on WHY ranked is light on cruisers and heavy on Kitakazes. The Kitakaze can do both roles.

Except as was pointed out, the DDs aren't the ones driving CA/CL out of ranked. It's BB AP that keeps cruisers from going into ranked. Musashi can pen a cruiser no matter what angle it is at, and Jean Bart can use MBRB to punish anything but perfect angling. 

Every BB driver knows that radar/hydro is bad for their team's DDs, they also know cruiser actual DPM is more consistent, and that cruisers can be citadeled from across the map, so they focus on cruisers. 

Combine the BBs abilities, and knowledge of the game with DDs scouting, and it's an extremely unsafe environment for a cruiser.

Is your assumption about ranked battles based on experience in T9 ranked? 

Edited by VeatherVitch
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8 hours ago, ElectroVeeDub said:

I don't have a Mogador either, but if it's like Le Terrible... it can rain AP shells from long range that absolutely wreck silly cruisers who go broadside. I was using one tonight with success in clan battles. Le Terrible works well at evicting island humping cruisers who spam radar.

The problem is CL players aren't using their heads. They see a DD... they pitch a tent, go full stupid, broadside and try to kill the DD with floaty shells. They think it's an "easy" kill... and that's precisely how they end up dead or severely damaged.

 

 

That goes for 90% of the player base, you think it's simply cruisers that play badly?

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1 hour ago, VeatherVitch said:

Except as was pointed out, the DDs aren't the ones driving CA/CL out of ranked. It's BB AP that keeps cruisers from going into ranked. Musashi can pen a cruiser no matter what angle it is at, and Jean Bart can use MBRB to punish anything but perfect angling. 

Every BB driver knows that radar/hydro is bad for their team's DDs, they also know cruiser actual DPM is more consistent, and that cruisers can be citadeled from across the map, so they focus on cruisers. 

Combine the BBs abilities, and knowledge of the game with DDs scouting, and it's an extremely unsafe environment for a cruiser.

Is your assumption about ranked battles based on experience in T9 ranked? 

Even in Randoms, when using a BB I prioritize Cruisers, especially Radar Cruisers.

What am I more likely to get high rewarding salvos against with my 406mm+ armed Battleship?

Some DD that nobody has spotted yet?

Some Cruiser that thinks it can angle and dance at 15km?

Some bow on / angled Battleship?

 

The answer is real obvious, and I'll go for the Cruiser each time.  BBs live for smashing Cruisers.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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1 hour ago, VeatherVitch said:

Except as was pointed out, the DDs aren't the ones driving CA/CL out of ranked. It's BB AP that keeps cruisers from going into ranked. Musashi can pen a cruiser no matter what angle it is at, and Jean Bart can use MBRB to punish anything but perfect angling.

Yeah but conversely JB is extremely allergic to HE spam and dies very quickly under concentrated fire.

 

As for Musashi, yeah sticking a T10 battleship in at T9 was a bad idea, who would have thought.

 

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The quality of Cruisers fluctuate greatly.  For IX Ranked, it's just the nature Ranked isn't conducive for most of them.  In a 12 vs 12 Random Battle, a Cruiser can lose itself in the mix with team deployments so spread out.  Ranked teams are small and a Cruiser gets easily picked out for focus firing, and the majority of them have no staying power.

 

The other thing is the quality of a Cruiser tier fluctuates greatly.  DDs, BBs, get better and better as you climb the tiers in general, Cruisers there's a lot of hiccups.

Tier VII Cruisers are a solid upgrade from prior tiers with some well liked ships.  Fiji, WINFAST, Atlanta, Helena.  Myoko is a favorite of mine here.  Most don't have good staying power, but that's a tradition for prior tiers of Cruisers to include even Tier VIII.  VII Cruisers have a good balance in increased firepower compared to prior tiers despite the Cruiser nature of poor protection.

Tier VIII Cruisers for example, IMO stink overall, especially in Randoms when they're facing Tier X.  Power is an issue but lack of Repair Party means they're extremely prone to attrition.

Tier IX Cruisers get RP access to help in attrition, but the tier is still not a friendly Cruiser tier where people would rather stay at.  Ibuki, Seattle, Buffalo, etc, who would stay with them after getting to Tier X Cruisers?

Tier X Cruisers are quite legit.  Henri IV, Des Memes / Salem, Hindenburg, Zao, Minotaur, etc.  All got specializations and are all quite good at it.  Really, you can't go wrong with any of them, it really comes down to having the one that suits a preferred playstyle.  I love my DM, but I know Henri IV can turn the place into a Sea of Fire having watched her players in action.  Hell, Server and Ranked stats showed that.

 

You can see the quality of Cruiser fluctuating greatly with some peaks at Tier VII and X and a nasty valley in Tier VIII-IX.  Some are really good tiers, some are just awful.

Tier IX Ranked is just showing how bad IX Cruisers generally are.  The fact that Premium Super Cruisers are being played more and having more success than tech tree "normal" Cruisers is just making it abundantly clear how bad they are.

Whenever you see VII or X Ranked happen again, you'll see those Cruisers having a better showing.  But V, VI, VIII, IX... Not so, these are the Ranked occasions where it's really a BB-DD affair.

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9 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Tier VIII Cruisers for example, IMO stink overall, especially in Randoms when they're facing Tier X.  Power is an issue but lack of Repair Party means they're extremely prone to attrition.

 

And therein lies the essential fact that everyone seems to miss. Every BB in the game gets a heal, so the class with the most HP gets to heal back most of it, while deleting the class that has none. Even the T8 Russian DDs get a heal.

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20 minutes ago, ryuukei8569 said:

Yeah but conversely JB is extremely allergic to HE spam and dies very quickly under concentrated fire.

 

As for Musashi, yeah sticking a T10 battleship in at T9 was a bad idea, who would have thought.

 

I believe at the time of Moo moo's introduction, no one thought T9 for rank. It didn't matter at the close in ranges rank normally involves. If your not within 10-15 range for rank in a BB, you're doing something horribly wrong.

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2 hours ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Do you deny that Kitakaze has more DPM than most if not all cruisers?

The DPM for stock Kita and the T9 cruisers.  Only the Neptune, Buffalo and Seattle have a lower average damage (ironically these are the ships with a higher DPM than the Kita).

Ship, T9  DPM
Kitakaze 272,000
Neptune 460,800
Seattle 353,280
Buffalo 300,000
Kron 259,200
Donskoi 253,440
Roon 244,260
Alaska 240,300
Azuma 233,550
Ibuki 206,800

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