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AJTP89

What If CE Was Built into Every Ship?

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Looking at my captain builds, I've noticed something. All of them, with a few exceptions I don't take seriously, have concealment expert. Why? Because it is by far the most useful skill (except maybe IFHE on CLs) any ship can have. That's the game meta, even with CVs. Concealment is king. Even the BBs run it. Even the CLs who take IFHE first (and that's 50/50 IMO) take CE next. Let's leave CVs out of this for the moment, it's not as required there, but they're different and even then it's still useful. But a skill that is pretty much a must have for every ship seems a bit much. 

First, it removes variability. Everyone goes for CE, and it's four points. That's four points that could be used for other things that make a ship unique. Secondaries, Survival, AA, whatever. Everyone is limited because they must spend 4 points on CE to have a viable build.

It also puts in a skill floor. Now, WG has been very good about getting people 10 point commanders pretty quick. But still, without CE you are at a huge disadvantage especially in a DD or CL. And the fact that WG hands out 10 pointers like candy only underscores the need for CE that has developed.

So, here's my idea. Remove CE from the skill tree. Instead, just decrease every ship's detection by 10%. Basically CE now comes built in to every ship. Just like they did for the detection icon. Yes, that used to require a captain skill, and yes everyone took it. So WG made is part of the base game. Same idea here with CE.

I though of just pulling it completely, with no concealment buff. That would keep the detection ranges balanced. But they're also balanced with gun ranges. So to keep it simple, it's just easier to give everyone the minimum detection, where most people are already. The camo bonus could just be kept on the camo, everyone uses those, they're built into every camo, no need to mess with that, though WG obviously could if they wanted too.

This frees up 4 points for people to make their build more unique. You don't have to give up as much to run a secondary or AA build. Try a couple different skills. There are actual options now instead of "You must get CE ASAP."

I don't think this screws up balance too much. Like I said, most people run full concealment anyway, and everyone gets more points now. A few ships might have to be excepted as not running CE is a viable option. RU DDs, IJN gunboat DDs, maybe KMS BBs. Giving them full concealment might be a bit much, but those are the only ones I can think of. And all that would have to be done would be to not buff the concealment as much for them.

You might say that this removes player choice. But that's the whole problem. Right now there isn't a choice, it's CE or nothing. So by starting off with CE, which previously removed 4 points by being pretty much mandatory, the player gets an "extra" 4 points for whatever they want.

Basically, there are no downsides that I can see. The game isn't changed. People can run more things on their ship, which results in different types of build for an individual ship becoming more common. I think that's a good thing.

Now, I know there are going to be some people saying that you don't actually need CE, and they don't run it on X Y or Z ship. That's great, I'm sure you don't. But how many high level gameplay or competitive captain builds don't include CE? I'm pretty sure the 95% answer is going to be none. For actual serious gameplay, CE is required. At that's why I think it should be removed from the skill tree and built into the base game.

 

Finally, there would need to be something to replace CE. I don't have any ideas, but I'm sure others will have some.

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Play some larger ships without concealment expert (BBs, CVs, some cruisers) and you will discover to your horror that you have been wasting 4 points.

Ever since the concealment class normalization...the extra concealment (usually a kilometer or two) is not worth it. BBs should take fire prevention...and CVs need all the plane health and speed skills.

But, you are right...concealment is a borked mechanic. 

IMO, concealment should impact the dispersion of weapons fired at you...not the view distance. That's a much better system, IMO...especially once they introduce SSs and DDs no longer need to fill the ninja assassin game role...

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I have always felt concealments should not be manipulated, because they are so important to the game. MAYBE the 3% camo but that is about it. The problem with my hard line is ships that want to fire torpedoes from stealth.

Maybe there should be captain skills that only work on certain lines. Conceal Expert on DDs, IFHE on cruisers, etc. This way you wont have cruisers that rival DDs on concealment and BBs that rival CAs. You also wont have DDs that melt you WHILE burning you to the ground.

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8 minutes ago, Prothall said:

I have always felt concealments should not be manipulated, because they are so important to the game. MAYBE the 3% camo but that is about it. The problem with my hard line is ships that want to fire torpedoes from stealth.

Maybe there should be captain skills that only work on certain lines. Conceal Expert on DDs, IFHE on cruisers, etc. This way you wont have cruisers that rival DDs on concealment and BBs that rival CAs. You also wont have DDs that melt you WHILE burning you to the ground.

I like your line of thinking Prothall. That is a way to keep the skill in the game without making it a must have for every ship. Good idea! 

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There are plenty of players out there that don't take CE even on ships that absolutely need it. Almost every enemy Fletcher I've played against in ranked, I was spotting at ~6.2km. Fletcher's absolute minimum detection range is 5.8km with a full concealment build.

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The mandatory nature of concealment upgrades for most (but admittedly not all) ships is indeed an issue.  Not only is Concealment Expert a near must-have skill, but for tier VIII+ ships, Concealment Modification 1 is similarly the default choice for most (but not all) ships.  In both cases, it speaks to not only how powerful stealth is perceived to be within the meta but also how poorly other choices stack up against what's on offer.  And it's this latter element which I think needs more focus.  I like choice.  I don't like the illusion of choice, though.  The difference is that the former allows me to pick different abilities to customize my game play.  The latter means that there's only one correct choice and if I select the wrong one, I'm penalizing myself. 

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1 hour ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

you are right...concealment is a borked mechanic. 

The whole skills board is full of borked mechanics. From unreal mechanics like the one that tells you you've been spotted, or how many people are targeting you, to the one that lets you find the last enemy ship in the game by tracking his radio. If he's the last ship on his team, who the hell is he talking to on the radio? Some skills don't belong in as skills, like IFHE, which should just be a type of ammo, while others need to be updated since the CV rework made them next to useless. Seriously, it's time for another rework of the Captains skills by someone who doesn't live on fantasy island.

49 minutes ago, Prothall said:

IFHE on cruisers

Many DDs like to use IFHE also.

50 minutes ago, Prothall said:

You also wont have DDs that melt you WHILE burning you to the ground.

Good luck with that, as that is exactly the reason they were brought into the game.

51 minutes ago, Prothall said:

The problem with my hard line is ships that want to fire torpedoes from stealth.

And DDs, especially IJN DDs, really do need to be able to do that.

9 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

Not only is Concealment Expert a near must-have skill, but for tier VIII+ ships, Concealment Modification 1 is similarly the default choice for most (but not all) ships.  In both cases, it speaks to not only how powerful stealth is perceived to be within the meta but also how poorly other choices stack up against what's on offer.  And it's this latter element which I think needs more focus

Spot on Tiger!

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10 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

The mandatory nature of concealment upgrades for most (but admittedly not all) ships is indeed an issue.  Not only is Concealment Expert a near must-have skill, but for tier VIII+ ships, Concealment Modification 1 is similarly the default choice for most (but not all) ships.  In both cases, it speaks to not only how powerful stealth is perceived to be within the meta but also how poorly other choices stack up against what's on offer.  And it's this latter element which I think needs more focus.  I like choice.  I don't like the illusion of choice, though.  The difference is that the former allows me to pick different abilities to customize my game play.  The latter means that there's only one correct choice and if I select the wrong one, I'm penalizing myself. 

That puts it better than I did. Right now there is a choice, but one is better than the others.

I would love to see viable options to concealment. The issue is especially at high tiers the firepower is so good that the only option to not get insta-blapped is to hide. I don't think there can be a solid alternative to concealment unless firepower is nerfed a bit. The issue there of course is that we play the game for firepower, people don't want their firepower to get nerfed. So there's a bit of a vicious circle there. It's kind of like real life. BB guns always surpassed armor quickly, that race went on until armor was made irrelevant by aircraft. Now modern naval warfare doesn't focus on armor, but rather on stealth, because no matter how much armor your ship has in the end, that nuclear warhead just doesn't give a damn. But it does have to find you to hit you. WOWS is the same way. You have armor? Yamato doesn't care. Yamato not here? That's fine, these cruisers will just BBQ you. You blap cruisers? Not if they're behind an island with a DD spotting. Well, in that case my BB is just going to stealth up, have fun dodging 16" shells at 12km. Stealth is the new armor, the only viable counter to the massive firepower that exists in game now.

So while I agree that there should be viable options to concealment, right now I just don't see how that could fit into the game. That's why I think just rolling with the concealment meta is the best option.

 

I asked on the CV stream Q&A how WG saw CVs affecting the stealth meta. Sub danced around the question a bit, but the gist of it was that WG saw the reduction in the utility of stealth coming from the increased presence of aircraft as a good thing. He didn't have a good answer for how stealth based ships, such as DDs and many CLs, would remain effective. While I think many people, including WG, don't like the stealth meta, no one really has a viable alternative. If someone came up with another way to counter T10 firepower I for one would certainly be willing to listen.

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2 minutes ago, AJTP89 said:

That puts it better than I did. Right now there is a choice, but one is better than the others.

I would love to see viable options to concealment.

I think we can answer that for ourselves by looking at the few examples of ships where concealment isn't the be-all, end-all.  For example:

  • Before 0.8.0, I ran my Atlanta with Advanced Fire Training, Inertial Fuse for HE Shells and Manual Fire Control for AA Guns.  The extra AA range and power on an already powerful AA platform combined with the increase reach and penetration of my main battery guns was considered more worth while than stealth.
  • For some battleships with powerful secondaries, taking Inertial Fuse for HE Shells in combination with Manual Fire Control for Secondary Armament and Advanced Fire Training is considered a reasonable trade-off over concealment. 
  • On the destroyer side of things, particularly large and fast destroyers with good gun ballistics may again elect to bolster the range and power of their main battery guns over concealment.  In this case, Inertial Fuse for HE Shells and Advanced Fire Training are their go to skills, and then take a pair of tier 3 skills (nominally Survivabiliy Expert plus either Basic Fire Training or Superintendent depending on consumable options) is preferred.  The expectation is that stealth isn't going to avail them over their competitors, so they resign themselves to firing from the second line and using speed and distance to afford them concealment when needed.
  • Concealment isn't always sought after on all aircraft carriers either.  Taking a boosted AA armament can help against sniping.

In this manner, I think shuffling some of the skills around to make some of the tier 4 skills more appealing as competitors to Concealment Expert are necessary.  So perhaps bumping up a torpedo-improving skill to tier 4.  Imagine a skill that reduces the surface detection of torpedoes by 25% at tier 4.  That would make IJN destroyer players sit up and take notice, for example.  Similarly, bumping up Survivability Expert to tier 4 would also do the trick.

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1.  Assume that CE skill is built in to all ships and that the only change to skills is the concealment option is removed.

I think that in think that the maximum skill points should be reduced to 17 points.  For example for my secondary build Bismark I now have a dilemma.  After AFT and MFSA do I take CE or FP as my 18th points.  If CE is built in that means that without more changes in the skill tree (fewer max points) I would have a 23 point captain.  Other builds that take 3 of the 4 point skills that include CE would experience the same.  This shows how tricky developing a captain skill tree is. 

I have speculated that a captain should be maxed out at 14 points.  If you want 2 - 4 point skills you are done (5 total choices) and if only 1 - 4 point skill you have at least 6 choices.  As the OP indicated that requires a complete rework of the captain skill tree.  Given all that has gone on this year (will not regale you with the details), I'm not confident WOWs has the ability to do any better than what we have now.

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2 hours ago, AJTP89 said:

Looking at my captain builds, I've noticed something. All of them, with a few exceptions I don't take seriously, have concealment expert. Why? Because it is by far the most useful skill (except maybe IFHE on CLs) any ship can have. That's the game meta, even with CVs. Concealment is king. Even the BBs run it. Even the CLs who take IFHE first (and that's 50/50 IMO) take CE next. Let's leave CVs out of this for the moment, it's not as required there, but they're different and even then it's still useful. But a skill that is pretty much a must have for every ship seems a bit much. 

First, it removes variability. Everyone goes for CE, and it's four points. That's four points that could be used for other things that make a ship unique. Secondaries, Survival, AA, whatever. Everyone is limited because they must spend 4 points on CE to have a viable build.

It also puts in a skill floor. Now, WG has been very good about getting people 10 point commanders pretty quick. But still, without CE you are at a huge disadvantage especially in a DD or CL. And the fact that WG hands out 10 pointers like candy only underscores the need for CE that has developed.

So, here's my idea. Remove CE from the skill tree. Instead, just decrease every ship's detection by 10%. Basically CE now comes built in to every ship. Just like they did for the detection icon. Yes, that used to require a captain skill, and yes everyone took it. So WG made is part of the base game. Same idea here with CE.

I though of just pulling it completely, with no concealment buff. That would keep the detection ranges balanced. But they're also balanced with gun ranges. So to keep it simple, it's just easier to give everyone the minimum detection, where most people are already. The camo bonus could just be kept on the camo, everyone uses those, they're built into every camo, no need to mess with that, though WG obviously could if they wanted too.

This frees up 4 points for people to make their build more unique. You don't have to give up as much to run a secondary or AA build. Try a couple different skills. There are actual options now instead of "You must get CE ASAP."

I don't think this screws up balance too much. Like I said, most people run full concealment anyway, and everyone gets more points now. A few ships might have to be excepted as not running CE is a viable option. RU DDs, IJN gunboat DDs, maybe KMS BBs. Giving them full concealment might be a bit much, but those are the only ones I can think of. And all that would have to be done would be to not buff the concealment as much for them.

You might say that this removes player choice. But that's the whole problem. Right now there isn't a choice, it's CE or nothing. So by starting off with CE, which previously removed 4 points by being pretty much mandatory, the player gets an "extra" 4 points for whatever they want.

Basically, there are no downsides that I can see. The game isn't changed. People can run more things on their ship, which results in different types of build for an individual ship becoming more common. I think that's a good thing.

Now, I know there are going to be some people saying that you don't actually need CE, and they don't run it on X Y or Z ship. That's great, I'm sure you don't. But how many high level gameplay or competitive captain builds don't include CE? I'm pretty sure the 95% answer is going to be none. For actual serious gameplay, CE is required. At that's why I think it should be removed from the skill tree and built into the base game.

 

Finally, there would need to be something to replace CE. I don't have any ideas, but I'm sure others will have some.

Making CE built in makes absolutely no difference. Every ship will now just have a stock 10% lower base concealment value. We will be where we are now before CE is taken. The whole point is to give the option to make your detection lower than another player who chooses not to take CE. An across the board -10% and removal of CE does nothing. Everyone will be in the exact same spot they were just all 10% lower. CE works. Just leave it alone.

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4 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

I think we can answer that for ourselves by looking at the few examples of ships where concealment isn't the be-all, end-all.  For example:

  • Before 0.8.0, I ran my Atlanta with Advanced Fire Training, Inertial Fuse for HE Shells and Manual Fire Control for AA Guns.  The extra AA range and power on an already powerful AA platform combined with the increase reach and penetration of my main battery guns was considered more worth while than stealth.
  • For some battleships with powerful secondaries, taking Inertial Fuse for HE Shells in combination with Manual Fire Control for Secondary Armament and Advanced Fire Training is considered a reasonable trade-off over concealment. 
  • On the destroyer side of things, particularly large and fast destroyers with good gun ballistics may again elect to bolster the range and power of their main battery guns over concealment.  In this case, Inertial Fuse for HE Shells and Advanced Fire Training are their go to skills, and then take a pair of tier 3 skills (nominally Survivabiliy Expert plus either Basic Fire Training or Superintendent depending on consumable options) is preferred.  The expectation is that stealth isn't going to avail them over their competitors, so they resign themselves to firing from the second line and using speed and distance to afford them concealment when needed.

Definitely true, CE was the last skill for my Atlanta. But, would you run any of these ship in competitive gameplay? I don't think so, I know I wouldn't. Secondaries maybe, but the issue is you have to give up FP there too, and losing both CE and FP is too much IMO for anything other than a just for fun build. Also, these are the minority, most ships aren't good enough base in these areas to make it worth it foregoing CE to buff AA for example.

4 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:
  • Concealment isn't always sought after on all aircraft carriers either.  Taking a boosted AA armament can help against sniping.
     

Fair, but who knows what the next patch will change. CVs are so far outside normal gameplay that I don't think this discussion can really apply.

4 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

In this manner, I think shuffling some of the skills around to make some of the tier 4 skills more appealing as competitors to Concealment Expert are necessary.  So perhaps bumping up a torpedo-improving skill to tier 4.  Imagine a skill that reduces the surface detection of torpedoes by 25% at tier 4.  That would make IJN destroyer players sit up and take notice, for example.  Similarly, bumping up Survivability Expert to tier 4 would also do the trick.

OK, these are good ideas, at least going in the right direction. I would argue that the IJN torp thing is only attractive because their torp detection is way to high to begin with, but that's semantics. Also, I don't think we need more HP perk BBs running around:Smile_teethhappy:

I think we have to be careful though,  because concealment is universally useful. Other areas are situational. To match CE, things like FP, AA, or secondaries might have to be buffed to the point where they're too strong in those situations. Then again, making a ship really, really good at either, secondaries, stealth, torpedos, AA, etc while relatively weak in the others might not be a bad idea. The benefits would just have to be good enough to make being worse in the other areas worth it. The question is would people pick mediocre all around or very good at one thing? Right now it's option A (concealment) but only because even highly specializing in other things still doesn't give you that big of an advantage. I'm talking myself around to your side now, but I still worry the other areas would have to be made borderline OP to compete with the jack of all trades CE.

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4 minutes ago, AdmiralThunder said:

Making CE built in makes absolutely no difference. Every ship will now just have a stock 10% lower base concealment value. We will be where we are now before CE is taken. The whole point is to give the option to make your detection lower than another player who chooses not to take CE. An across the board -10% and removal of CE does nothing. Everyone will be in the exact same spot they were just all 10% lower. CE works. Just leave it alone.

The issue is that almost no serious player choses not to go with CE. And yes, the concealment issue remains the same, but everyone now has another 4 points to play with and customize with. You're right, CE works, that's the issue, it works too well.

 

Also, don't want to get personal, but concealment isn't that useful for Coop, so maybe you as a Coop only player don't have much relevant experience with captain choices for Randoms. 

 

16 minutes ago, gslick said:

1.  Assume that CE skill is built in to all ships and that the only change to skills is the concealment option is removed.

I think that in think that the maximum skill points should be reduced to 17 points.  For example for my secondary build Bismark I now have a dilemma.  After AFT and MFSA do I take CE or FP as my 18th points.  If CE is built in that means that without more changes in the skill tree (fewer max points) I would have a 23 point captain.  Other builds that take 3 of the 4 point skills that include CE would experience the same.  This shows how tricky developing a captain skill tree is. 

I have speculated that a captain should be maxed out at 14 points.  If you want 2 - 4 point skills you are done (5 total choices) and if only 1 - 4 point skill you have at least 6 choices.  As the OP indicated that requires a complete rework of the captain skill tree.  Given all that has gone on this year (will not regale you with the details), I'm not confident WOWs has the ability to do any better than what we have now.

Lowering the captain limit is an option, I think we have to test things out to see if it's needed. I don't see a problem though with every ship gaining 4 pts. Ships get more powerful, but things stay balanced because everyone gets more powerful equally.

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Just now, AJTP89 said:

The issue is that almost no serious player choses not to go with CE. And yes, the concealment issue remains the same, but everyone now has another 4 points to play with and customize with. You're right, CE works, that's the issue, it works too well.

 

Also, don't want to get personal, but concealment isn't that useful for Coop, so maybe you as a Coop only player don't have much relevant experience with captain choices for Randoms. 

 

Lowering the captain limit is an option, I think we have to test things out to see if it's needed. I don't see a problem though with every ship gaining 4 pts. Ships get more powerful, but things stay balanced because everyone gets more powerful equally.

I have played PVP so it isn't like it is a mystery and some totally different arena. And, if you don't think concealment is relevant and useful in Co-op you don't understand how that mode works. It is just as useful there. I have 15K+ games in WOWS and even though 99% are in Co-op I think that is enough experience to entitle me to an opinion on the game. All I will say as mode played should be irrelevant to this topic and I don't want to derail it even if you as OP tried to LOL.

My point is removing CE and giving an across the board built in -10% puts us where we are right now. It changes nothing because everyone still has the same relative detection range vs others they do now stock. CE and CSM1 are choices made and OPTIONS that can change the relative concealment of like ships.

Yes CE is powerful and most do and should take it but you don't HAVE to. There are other options and it is a choice. So let's just leave it there because if you go built in you actually are making the detection situation worse overall.

JMHO. YMMV.

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1 minute ago, AdmiralThunder said:

I have played PVP so it isn't like it is a mystery and some totally different arena. And, if you don't think concealment is relevant and useful in Co-op you don't understand how that mode works. It is just as useful there. I have 15K+ games in WOWS and even though 99% are in Co-op I think that is enough experience to entitle me to an opinion on the game. All I will say as mode played should be irrelevant to this topic and I don't want to derail it even if you as OP tried to LOL.

My point is removing CE and giving an across the board built in -10% puts us where we are right now. It changes nothing because everyone still has the same relative detection range vs others they do now stock. CE and CSM1 are choices made and OPTIONS that can change the relative concealment of like ships.

Yes CE is powerful and most do and should take it but you don't HAVE to. There are other options and it is a choice. So let's just leave it there because if you go built in you actually are making the detection situation worse overall.

JMHO. YMMV.

I agree that in a perfect world, something else would be done to combat the concealment problem. I just don't think there is a good practical way to do that. So we could just roll with the concealment thing, build it in, and let people use those extra four points for something else. Nothing changes except a bit more variation and specialization, which I think is a good think. You're right, not a whole lot changes, but I think it would be a bit better than it is right now because instead of knowing what my first 4 pt skill is, I have a choice now. And down the road if the camping meta is addressed, all it takes is a change to base detection and WG doesn't have to screw with captain skills and upgrade.

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4 minutes ago, AJTP89 said:

I agree that in a perfect world, something else would be done to combat the concealment problem. I just don't think there is a good practical way to do that. So we could just roll with the concealment thing, build it in, and let people use those extra four points for something else. Nothing changes except a bit more variation and specialization, which I think is a good think. You're right, not a whole lot changes, but I think it would be a bit better than it is right now because instead of knowing what my first 4 pt skill is, I have a choice now. And down the road if the camping meta is addressed, all it takes is a change to base detection and WG doesn't have to screw with captain skills and upgrade.

Then just drop CE and leave things as is right now. A built in CE doesn't really do much so what is the point of doing it? Optional CE offers something different and even if some/most consider it a must have it is still an option/choice. IMO this is something I want them to just leave alone. They messed with it enough when they made it a flat -10%.

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14 minutes ago, AdmiralThunder said:

Then just drop CE and leave things as is right now. A built in CE doesn't really do much so what is the point of doing it? Optional CE offers something different and even if some/most consider it a must have it is still an option/choice. IMO this is something I want them to just leave alone. They messed with it enough when they made it a flat -10%.

I thought of dropping CE. The only reason I wouldn't do that is because right now concealment is pretty well balanced with gun range. Removing it could mess that up, but otherwise, yeah, that would work too. However, it might force people to sit even further back than they do now. 

It's not a pressing issue right now, so they could leave it alone. But the concealment meta isn't fun, and I think something should be done about it, and this would be a step in the right direction. I think that's why they changed CE, to reduce BB and CA concealment. It didn't work, but that was the intention.

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4 hours ago, AJTP89 said:

I asked on the CV stream Q&A how WG saw CVs affecting the stealth meta. Sub danced around the question a bit, but the gist of it was that WG saw the reduction in the utility of stealth coming from the increased presence of aircraft as a good thing. He didn't have a good answer for how stealth based ships, such as DDs and many CLs, would remain effective. While I think many people, including WG, don't like the stealth meta, no one really has a viable alternative. If someone came up with another way to counter T10 firepower I for one would certainly be willing to listen.

Make higher tier guns less accurate. The issue you describe is really just battleship guns.

Or make the skill give a malus to the dispersion of ships shooting at you like the concealment module does.

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6 hours ago, AJTP89 said:

Looking at my captain builds, I've noticed something. All of them, with a few exceptions I don't take seriously, have concealment expert. Why? Because it is by far the most useful skill (except maybe IFHE on CLs) any ship can have. That's the game meta, even with CVs. Concealment is king. Even the BBs run it. Even the CLs who take IFHE first (and that's 50/50 IMO) take CE next. Let's leave CVs out of this for the moment, it's not as required there, but they're different and even then it's still useful. But a skill that is pretty much a must have for every ship seems a bit much. 

First, it removes variability. Everyone goes for CE, and it's four points. That's four points that could be used for other things that make a ship unique. Secondaries, Survival, AA, whatever. Everyone is limited because they must spend 4 points on CE to have a viable build.

It also puts in a skill floor. Now, WG has been very good about getting people 10 point commanders pretty quick. But still, without CE you are at a huge disadvantage especially in a DD or CL. And the fact that WG hands out 10 pointers like candy only underscores the need for CE that has developed.

So, here's my idea. Remove CE from the skill tree. Instead, just decrease every ship's detection by 10%. Basically CE now comes built in to every ship. Just like they did for the detection icon. Yes, that used to require a captain skill, and yes everyone took it. So WG made is part of the base game. Same idea here with CE.

I though of just pulling it completely, with no concealment buff. That would keep the detection ranges balanced. But they're also balanced with gun ranges. So to keep it simple, it's just easier to give everyone the minimum detection, where most people are already. The camo bonus could just be kept on the camo, everyone uses those, they're built into every camo, no need to mess with that, though WG obviously could if they wanted too.

This frees up 4 points for people to make their build more unique. You don't have to give up as much to run a secondary or AA build. Try a couple different skills. There are actual options now instead of "You must get CE ASAP."

I don't think this screws up balance too much. Like I said, most people run full concealment anyway, and everyone gets more points now. A few ships might have to be excepted as not running CE is a viable option. RU DDs, IJN gunboat DDs, maybe KMS BBs. Giving them full concealment might be a bit much, but those are the only ones I can think of. And all that would have to be done would be to not buff the concealment as much for them.

You might say that this removes player choice. But that's the whole problem. Right now there isn't a choice, it's CE or nothing. So by starting off with CE, which previously removed 4 points by being pretty much mandatory, the player gets an "extra" 4 points for whatever they want.

Basically, there are no downsides that I can see. The game isn't changed. People can run more things on their ship, which results in different types of build for an individual ship becoming more common. I think that's a good thing.

Now, I know there are going to be some people saying that you don't actually need CE, and they don't run it on X Y or Z ship. That's great, I'm sure you don't. But how many high level gameplay or competitive captain builds don't include CE? I'm pretty sure the 95% answer is going to be none. For actual serious gameplay, CE is required. At that's why I think it should be removed from the skill tree and built into the base game.

 

Finally, there would need to be something to replace CE. I don't have any ideas, but I'm sure others will have some.

I think they should remove the option for ships to even take that skill unless they are a DD. Cruisers and BB etc should not even get to use it.

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If it was up to me I'd replace the concealment bonuses from CE and CM1 with dispersion modifiers, the same kind as the standard camo bonus but stronger. If it wasn't enough, I would consider adding additional rudder shift or engine power/control. Base concealments for all ships would be rebalanced and afterwards remain relatively static (the standard concealment bonus from camo isn't an issue).

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8 hours ago, AJTP89 said:

Looking at my captain builds, I've noticed something. All of them, with a few exceptions I don't take seriously, have concealment expert. Why? Because it is by far the most useful skill (except maybe IFHE on CLs) any ship can have. That's the game meta, even with CVs. Concealment is king. Even the BBs run it. Even the CLs who take IFHE first (and that's 50/50 IMO) take CE next. Let's leave CVs out of this for the moment, it's not as required there, but they're different and even then it's still useful. But a skill that is pretty much a must have for every ship seems a bit much. 

First, it removes variability. Everyone goes for CE, and it's four points. That's four points that could be used for other things that make a ship unique. Secondaries, Survival, AA, whatever. Everyone is limited because they must spend 4 points on CE to have a viable build.

It also puts in a skill floor. Now, WG has been very good about getting people 10 point commanders pretty quick. But still, without CE you are at a huge disadvantage especially in a DD or CL. And the fact that WG hands out 10 pointers like candy only underscores the need for CE that has developed.

So, here's my idea. Remove CE from the skill tree. Instead, just decrease every ship's detection by 10%. Basically CE now comes built in to every ship. Just like they did for the detection icon. Yes, that used to require a captain skill, and yes everyone took it. So WG made is part of the base game. Same idea here with CE.

I though of just pulling it completely, with no concealment buff. That would keep the detection ranges balanced. But they're also balanced with gun ranges. So to keep it simple, it's just easier to give everyone the minimum detection, where most people are already. The camo bonus could just be kept on the camo, everyone uses those, they're built into every camo, no need to mess with that, though WG obviously could if they wanted too.

This frees up 4 points for people to make their build more unique. You don't have to give up as much to run a secondary or AA build. Try a couple different skills. There are actual options now instead of "You must get CE ASAP."

I don't think this screws up balance too much. Like I said, most people run full concealment anyway, and everyone gets more points now. A few ships might have to be excepted as not running CE is a viable option. RU DDs, IJN gunboat DDs, maybe KMS BBs. Giving them full concealment might be a bit much, but those are the only ones I can think of. And all that would have to be done would be to not buff the concealment as much for them.

You might say that this removes player choice. But that's the whole problem. Right now there isn't a choice, it's CE or nothing. So by starting off with CE, which previously removed 4 points by being pretty much mandatory, the player gets an "extra" 4 points for whatever they want.

Basically, there are no downsides that I can see. The game isn't changed. People can run more things on their ship, which results in different types of build for an individual ship becoming more common. I think that's a good thing.

Now, I know there are going to be some people saying that you don't actually need CE, and they don't run it on X Y or Z ship. That's great, I'm sure you don't. But how many high level gameplay or competitive captain builds don't include CE? I'm pretty sure the 95% answer is going to be none. For actual serious gameplay, CE is required. At that's why I think it should be removed from the skill tree and built into the base game.

 

Finally, there would need to be something to replace CE. I don't have any ideas, but I'm sure others will have some.

Taking CE on most (but not all) battleships  these days is a waste.

It needs to stay so that some people choose to waste points on it.

If you want to get rid of CE in the game, just get rid of it.  No point in lowering everybody’s concealment to give it for free.

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may be add a drawback like the torpedo acceleration skill Say   15% concealment but with a penalty to main guns and torpedos max range so its a fair trade.

 

either that or make other skills more atractive, manual sec and AA are quite terrible in comparison, diferent story would be if they give something along this lines:
 

manual sec.

-15% -40% to the maximum dispersion of shells for the secondary armament of Tier I-VI ships.
-60% to the maximum dispersion of shells for the secondary armament of Tier VII-X ships.
  

add a button to swap main guns and secondary guns control so the player can control secondary guns while the AI takes over the main guns

 

manual AA

+40% AA sector efficiency.
-30% reinforcment delay.

+15% AA range

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I haven’t played in a while, so all my captains are still in their pre cv rework state. Even with only 30ish battles in the last few weeks I can absolutely see the value of abusing CE on my BBs even with the nerf. If you’re willing to get a little closer, you will find that you really need that extra kilometer or 2 of detection to safely set up in ideal positions or turn out from the enemy push. It’s a lesser consideration if you’re playing a reactionary game, but if you’re looking to make in game decisions from a  information based, premeditated style, I would consider the extra kilometer or two of stealth to be more important than even something like fire prevention.

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9 minutes ago, Q___________Q said:

I haven’t played in a while, so all my captains are still in their pre cv rework state. Even with only 30ish battles in the last few weeks I can absolutely see the value of abusing CE on my BBs even with the nerf. If you’re willing to get a little closer, you will find that you really need that extra kilometer or 2 of detection to safely set up in ideal positions or turn out from the enemy push. It’s a lesser consideration if you’re playing a reactionary game, but if you’re looking to make in game decisions from a  information based, premeditated style, I would consider the extra kilometer or two of stealth to be more important than even something like fire prevention.

Use islands or your armor...just as good...didn't take 4 captain points.

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