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Submarine Game play Ideas

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Since WG announced that they will be at the very least adding submarines to a separate test mode. I think its a little past the time to argue how subs cant be added to the game and instead discuss in a productive way, creative ways that subs could exist in random battles. 

 

How do you think subs should play? How do you think that ASW should work? How do you think subs should be able to interact with objectives? Should all classes have weapons that can hurt submerged subs? How can subs be differentiated from torpedo Destroyers? What changes need to be done to other classes to create a spot for subs? 

 

I posted on a reddit thread a while back some ideas I had after the Halloween event here:

Spoiler

 

My basic line of thinking is that we should look at historical operation of classes for ideas on mechanics. Like for example I doubt that subs would be fun or effective with historical speeds, however I still think that there should be a speed penalty for traveling underwater.

I also think that WG tried too hard to make CVs simple in the rework and it reduced how interesting they are and created more issues, especially with AA. I hope that WG does not make subs so simple that they take away the interesting tactical options Subs could add to the game. A great example is battery power, in the halloween mode there was no power and no speed differences submerging. So you could run around as fast as you wanted the entire time underwater. However if there is a limited amount of power and a speed difference of some amount people would be incentivised to travel on the surface to position for an attack leaving more power for the escape or to reposition. On the same note someone could be careful and patient underwater saving the power for when they needed it. Sneaking underwater is what I consider the primary interesting element of sub play and I hope that is not lost in WGs implementation. 

Also ASW is a major concern of mine, I fear that WG will make asw like secondaries or AA which means players will have little to no ability to control the system which I dont like. There needs to be ways for skilled play on either side to win, instead of just running and hiding with other ships. I also hope WG does not just add a couple consumables in order to fix any problems, its a lazy solution and there are far to many ships that only exist because they get some consumable to stuff them into another spot of the tech tree. 

 

Here are some of the suggestions made so far in the thread(no particular order):

1. The air mechanism from the Halloween event needs to be changed, at least so a sub can hide for longer periods of time
2. Subs get reduced intel underwater, maybe no access to spotting from other ships and lower detection ranges. 
3. Subs in game need to resemble peoples idea of how subs operate
4. ASW weaponry needs to be controllable 
5. All ships need to be able to fight subs to some extent or another
6. There needs to be some of the classic ASW experiences when conducting ASW, i.e. when trying to find a sub the location of the sub cant just be obvious because someone activated a consumable. There needs to be like sutle warnings like sounds of propellors when a nearby sub manuvers or something. 
7. No capping underwater.
8. Underwater speed should be slower than other ships. 
9. Hedgehogs need to be a thing. 
10. Depth charges should incapacitate sub modules in close enough proximity.
11. Depth charge projector ranges will need range buffs to handle faster subs. 

Edited by 1nv4d3rZ1m
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Good points on making submarine gameplay interesting and somewhat historical.

Some questions:

How will concealment work? One concealment for surfaced...one for periscope, and submerged?

I'm concerned with the other ships too.

How do we want DDs to hunt for subs? Do we give them an RPF type detector?

Depth charges need to be aimed? Or do we activate depth charge patterns in an effort to drive off or force to surface the submarine?

Will battleships and cruisers be able to ram periscope depth subs?

What ASW weapons will cruisers have?

If ASW becomes the purview of DDs...what will we remove from the DDs to keep the matchmaker from being flooded with DDs (if they are effective) or subs (if DDs are unable to do both ASW and surface support)?

What about aircraft...will they be able to spot submerged or periscope depth subs (as was historical)? What methods will they use to detect the sub?

What is WGs proactive plan for guiding all of this into a coherent game meta that they think we will enjoy?

Do we want to propose any class wide changes to help WG development staff avoid the meta problems caused by their carrier rework implementation?

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The problem Subs will have is currently DDs are doing the "WW2/WW1" traditional job role.  

 

In WW1/WW2 subs were excellent scouts, informing surface ships/planes/other subs where and when convos or targets were (in the age before satalites)

They were supreme ambush hunters that every ship captain feared

And on the whole when you look at the tonnage of ships sunk by ship based torpedo it's not even a contest, as DDs could claim at most (in WW2) a few light cruisers sunk with torpedo runs, where as Subs were taking down BBs and CVs.  Currently with how "stealth" works for DDs they're basically the "sub" of the WoW gameplay.  

 

So if we're going to make "Subs" worth playing you need to eliminate the overlap with DDs.  I suggest the following to make it fit

1) blackout the above water camera for the sub player when submerged and no periscope up; in this mode, no one can see them except historically accurate ships which had ASW active sonar, adjust the ranges and behaviors of active sonar for gameplay balance.  Furthermore grant t10 CVs some magneto detection tools (these showed up at the end of WW2, causing immense pain to subs); allow CVs to launch ASW planes as an additional ammunition with depth charges or something.

2) new ASW weapons, depth charges mostly

3) no sub v sub warfare (under the water) unless we're going to start putting in ships from the 50's and 60's 

4) at periscope depth make subs detectible based on weather and speed of the sub by everyone; probably a fairly short range sight distance but it would give ships a chance in hell if the sub lines up a bad torpedo run; snorkels for desiles only showed up toward the end of the war, only put them with the appropriate t7s-10s, allow a snorkeling sub to stay underwater indefinitely, though make them have a larger detection bubble.

5) DDs will hate this rule, but remove or nerf some of their non-smokescreen stealth.  Currently DDs are far too deadly a torpedo threat (in comparison to their historical roles and performance), in exchange give them all the tools needed to make a sub's life hell (in short we take away the DD's torpedo warrior role, or limit it at least, and in exchange grant them tools to make a sub's life hell); furthermore grant DDs some better AA, they should have a more "defensive" role (AA, ASW) for the fleet then they currently do.  

6) grant historically accurate cruisers and battleships the ability to depth charge, and grant depth charges as a consumable to all other ships (so they people can chose to mount them or not) 

7) make subs accurately SLOW underwater, in exchange they'll probably have to be moderately faster on the surface then they were in actuality, perhaps grant them (new) DD like low visibility on the surface to help them keep up with battles in exchange for the slow speed and stealth underwater

8) make them hard to turn submerged, it wasn't until the age of nuclear power and torpedo shaped subs that subs gained solid turning ability underwater, prior to that they were pretty slow turning underwater.

9) gonna have to make all maps have a depth for that water.  I know currently there is none.  We'll also have to have a depth of draft for surface ships.

 

-do this and I think subs will be ok.  The key points in summery are to pull back some of the DD's roles and add some new ones in order to prevent too much overlap.  

 

Edited by Azanimefan

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If we end up with subs that cannot stay under water for even as long as I can hold my breath they will not feel at all like subs. I get that there has to be a drawback to being under water, but having to pop up every 45 seconds for air was not the traditional one. Rather, the sub has 0 visibility if it is below periscope depth, cannot move very quickly while under water (prior to nukes), and makes more noise the faster it is.

What you'd need is an interface that consists of only the minimap when the ship is at depth, the minimap and a rotating periscope view when just below the surface, and a full display when the sail is above the water. I have no idea if that's fun, but it would provide the drawbacks for being submerged to counter the benefits, and would feel a lot more like an actual submarine than the silly bobbing-for-apples version we got during Halloween.

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Having experienced WoWS for years now... I expect the "sneaking around underwater" aspect of subs will some how, some way get kicked in the propellers so hard as to make them play without any type of strategy or concealment. 

I HOPE not, but just look back at the game's history.

I'll be brave, bold even and predict within a week of them going live, they will release a hot patch to neuter/spay them. 

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My position on subs is well known, so I won't belabor it here.

My only comment will be the following -- the challenge is to fulfill all of these requirements at the same time.

  • Make subs feel like WW1/WW2 subs, not like some other ship that happens to use diving for stealth.
  • Make subs fit within the framework of how other ships are translated into WOWS from reality, no triple speed or double armor or freaky weapons.  
  • Make subs fun to play.
  • Make subs fun to play against.
  • Make ASW gear useable in the context of WOWS battles, and balance it both across all ships and across tiers that can face each other (that is, don't make the "bad scaling" and "wide gap" errors that happened with both old and new AA vs planes). 
  • ALL surface ships must be given ASW gear and the ability to directly fight back against subs. 

 

If you can do that, maybe adding subs won't ruin WOWS... but clearly I'm of the position that it just can't be done.

 

 

Edited by KilljoyCutter
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32 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Good points on making submarine gameplay interesting and somewhat historical.

Some questions:

How will concealment work? One concealment for surfaced...one for periscope, and submerged?

In the Halloween there was 3 different concealment ranges for those three situations. There also was proximity spotting so everything inside of 2 km was automatically spotted in any conditions. Which might need to change in order for DDs to do ASW.

Quote

I'm concerned with the other ships too.

How do we want DDs to hunt for subs? Do we give them an RPF type detector?

Depth charges need to be aimed? Or do we activate depth charge patterns in an effort to drive off or force to surface the submarine?

Who knows WG might just add a consumable that drops some depth charges occasionally. But there were many different kinds of depth charges historically and I would like to see them in game. IRL early attempts were just throwing a couple depth charges over the side, then they added the rails to roll off a couple at a time, then they added projectors like the K gun so an entire pattern around the DD would be covered. During WW2 the hedgehog and other projectors that could be aimed were developed. So if I where to design the depth charges there would a combination of stuff that works in proximity and eventually ranged projectors that could be aimed. 

Quote

Will battleships and cruisers be able to ram periscope depth subs?

Almost certainly

Quote

What about aircraft...will they be able to spot submerged or periscope depth subs (as was historical)? What methods will they use to detect the sub?

What is WGs proactive plan for guiding all of this into a coherent game meta that they think we will enjoy?

Hopefully WG somewhat follows historical developments and gives CVs the ability to spot or even engage subs. (hopefully a completely separate squad that the CV has to pick instead of the current ones) Maybe the ability to choose an upgrade with MAD or sonar buoys at high tiers. 

Quote

Do we want to propose any class wide changes to help WG development staff avoid the meta problems caused by their carrier rework implementation?

Thats a good question, I would be tempted to treat the CV issues as a good reason to avoid making similar mistakes but I consider most of the CV issues to be mostly CV vs surface ships (plus potentially subs) relationship issues. Adding subs wont fix the basic issues that cause problems with CVs. 

30 minutes ago, KaptainNemo_1 said:

If we end up with subs that cannot stay under water for even as long as I can hold my breath they will not feel at all like subs. I get that there has to be a drawback to being under water, but having to pop up every 45 seconds for air was not the traditional one. Rather, the sub has 0 visibility if it is below periscope depth, cannot move very quickly while under water (prior to nukes), and makes more noise the faster it is.

I agree and I said as much in my reddit post that I linked. WG will be shooting themselves in the foot if they make things so simple that it removes tactical options and I think balancing the power in the sub will make playing the sub and countering the sub more interesting. My idea is to make power not air the limiting factor in how much a sub can do underwater. Which means that the more active a sub is the faster they have to return to the surface. 

Quote

What you'd need is an interface that consists of only the minimap when the ship is at depth, the minimap and a rotating periscope view when just below the surface, and a full display when the sail is above the water. I have no idea if that's fun, but it would provide the drawbacks for being submerged to counter the benefits, and would feel a lot more like an actual submarine than the silly bobbing-for-apples version we got during Halloween.

Interesting idea, I personally think a third person underwater view will work fine after playing cold waters and the halloween mode. Although I would like WG to not communicate the spotting information of other ships to submerged subs. One of the issues a sub should have to deal with underwater is lack of communication. 

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5 minutes ago, KilljoyCutter said:

My position on subs is well known, so I won't belabor it here.

My only comment will be the following -- the challenge is to fulfill all of these requirements at the same time.

  • Make subs feel like WW1/WW2 subs, not like some other ship that happens to use diving for stealth.
  • Make subs fit within the framework of how other ships are translated into WOWS from reality, no triple speed or double armor or freaky weapons.  
  • Make subs fun to play.
  • Make subs fun to play against.
  • Make ASW gear useable in the context of WOWS battles, and balance it both across all ships and across tiers that can face each other (that is, don't make the "bad scaling" and "wide gap" errors that happened with both old and new AA vs planes). 

 

If you can do that, maybe adding subs won't ruin WOWS... but clearly I'm of the position that it just can't be done.

 

 

Thanks for being constructive in this conversation. 

I think your point about ASW is really good. I hope its not just popping hydro and seeing the sub. Historically ASW is a cat and mouse game, radar already has enough problems WG should be smart enough to come up with something else that lets people out play each other. I would like to see spotter planes for ships that could give a hard to notice warning of subs when they pass near a sub and for sonar equipped ships would be able to hear "sub noises" when they are slow enough and the sub is doing something like maneuvering, surfacing, diving, firing torpedoes. Like I really want to have someone yell "Torp in the water" when a sub fires torpedoes near my DD or "Sub preparing to fire" when the outer doors open on the tubes. Also we cant forget the bubble trails from torps and subs breaching the surface if they launch to many torpedoes and stuff like that. 

Basically what I am getting at is ASW should be automatic depth charge launchers or some consumable that puts an arrow on top of the sub. There needs to be nuance to it because ASW is not brute force like many other things in this game. 

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@1nv4d3rZ1m Subs would be very difficult to put into random battles. ASW equipped ships would be sitting ducks during search, tracking and attacking them. That could not be done at full speed zig zagging trying to avoid incoming rounds and torps.

Even though the game is time/speed/distance scaled to fit in the 20 minute limit a sub should be able to stay submerged operating on batteries for that entire 20 minutes. The only reason they should be required to surface would be due to damage. 

We would be better served if they had their own co op, scenario modes such as attacking/defending a convoy. Those could also be random of sorts with one team escorting a convoy and the other a wolf pack attacking the convoy and escorts. 

ASW weapons could be chosen with keys 4, 5 and 6. 4 for roll off stern DCs tapped once for shallow depth detonation, twice for a medium depth and thrice for deep. 5 would be for side launched/dropped DCs tapped the same way to set depth and 6 for hedge hogs and squids except no depth setting is needed since they detonated on contact. 

@Ellyh sort of like this?

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1 submarine per team -  in 12 man randoms

Can not cap underwater

Limit snorkel ability to "Select" tier 10's - possibly

Speed underwater should always be slower than the slowest ships

Torp ranges should be shorter than DD's but perhaps do great damages????

Detection of sub on surface should be about the same as a DD a lil smaller...if submerged with periscope up detection maybe 1km or 2...down only detectable by active sonar?

Aft  firing torpedoes only available on higher tier speciality boats.

Hedgehogs available on ships that had them as well as depth charges enabling a twofold attack on a submerged DD.

Deep water torps able to sink a periscope depth sub....if on surface deep water won't hit but the normal ones will.

Ramming Ability

 

From https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/asw.htm#World War II

Counter Measures for Submarines - 

During the Second World War, German U-boat captains used a chemical, called the Pillenwerfer, that caused the water to foam up in a large area around their vessel for a good twenty minutes, similar to dumping a load of alka-seltzer tablets in seawater. The wall of bubbles confused acoustic torpedoes and registered as a solid substance to ASDIC. The submarine could then leave the area, while the warship would begin to engage the cloud of harmless bubbles.

There was also the Sieglinde, a motorized decoy that rose and sank and sounded like a submarine, to a certain extent (enough to confuse an inexperienced passive sonar operator).

Finally, the Germans had a synthetic rubber, sonar- and radar-absorbing, bubble-filled paint called Alberich, named after the dwarf of German legend who had a helmet that made him invisible. The paint was effective when freshly applied, but, as the bubbles collapsed, it lost functionality. It also tended to rip away from the hull at high speeds.

 

Counter Measures for Ships - 

Aircraft in the early days of Air ASW primarily relied upon visual lookouts to detect submarines. These patrolling aircraft consisted mainly of Consolidated PBY-5 Catalina seaplanes, smaller aircraft, and various airships (or blimps). Their weapon systems were limited to guns, depth bombs, and rockets.

Of course, having offensive weapons did not necessarily ensure aircraft survivability. In June 1943, Airship K-74 on a night patrol off the Florida coast attacked a surfaced German submarine. The airship was shot down in the ensuing gun duel. The submarine, U-134, was forced to return to base. As the submarine struggled back home, it survived two subsequent attacks but was finally sunk by British bombers in the Bay of Biscay.

World War II-vintage diesel submarines still had to surface during the night to re-charge their spent batteries. ASW aircraft countered these submarine nighttime operations with searchlights, flares and radar systems. This worked for a while until the submarine community responded with electro-magnetic sensors to detect aircraft radar emissions, snorkels to minimize their exposed hull surfaces, and radar decoys. Other ASW aircraft sensors employed during World War II included MAD and sonobuoys. 

 

 

Edited by C_D

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17 minutes ago, 1nv4d3rZ1m said:

I agree and I said as much in my reddit post that I linked. WG will be shooting themselves in the foot if they make things so simple that it removes tactical options and I think balancing the power in the sub will make playing the sub and countering the sub more interesting. My idea is to make power not air the limiting factor in how much a sub can do underwater. Which means that the more active a sub is the faster they have to return to the surface

This is a basic must for the system, IMO.

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If it were me, and I'm no real authority on the matter, here is how I would do it. 

- make subs in same realm at CV's when it comes to capabilities. Can damage anything, not the most profitable to go against another sub.

- make it hard for a sub to get close enough to damage a CV in the same way it's hard for a CV to damage another CV. Have the CV launch an automatic counter measure when a sub is close that has a cool down period.

- damage by subs have to be done when surfaced or at periscope depths

- torpedoes are short range and fast 

- detectability range is smaller than a DD but no conventional guns can be used to fight a ship. The gun operates as a secondary.

- there should be a depth charge ability for appropriate ships.

- subs should be slow as hell when submerged

 

Many of the things people said make sense.

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A thought on subs being detected by hydro...if they shut down their engines (set on stop) will detection be lost/gradually lost due to lack of engine sounds to track?

Not sure how that actually applied IRL.

Due to how the "assured acquisition" mechanic in game works & hydro/radar being just range extensions of that mechanic I'm guessing not.

Forgive my ignorance if this seems like an obviously stupid question...not sure if that was a viable strategy for breaking detection once detected although I know it was a viable strategy for avoiding detection in the 1st place (based on every sub movie having that "shut down the engines & everybody be quiet" scene).

Also...seeing as all CV attack planes in the game have a hidden compartment w/a squadron of fighter planes in their storage bays might subs be able to have a hidden compartment water tank w/maybe some whales inside to release & throw off the hydro readings? I know I know...that suggestion is too close to IRL & this is just a video game...nevermind.

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2 minutes ago, IfYouSeeKhaos said:

A thought on subs being detected by hydro...if they shut down their engines (set on stop) will detection be lost/gradually lost due to lack of engine sounds to track?

Not sure how that actually applied IRL.

Due to how the "assured acquisition" mechanic in game works & hydro/radar being just range extensions of that mechanic I'm guessing not.

Forgive my ignorance if this seems like an obviously stupid question...not sure if that was a viable strategy for breaking detection once detected although I know it was a viable strategy for avoiding detection in the 1st place (based on every sub movie having that "shut down the engines & everybody be quiet" scene).

Also...seeing as all CV attack planes in the game have a hidden compartment w/a squadron of fighter planes in their storage bays might subs be able to have a hidden compartment water tank w/maybe some whales inside to release & throw off the hydro readings? I know I know...that last suggestion is too close to IRL & this is just a video game...nevermind.

 

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8 minutes ago, IfYouSeeKhaos said:

A thought on subs being detected by hydro...if they shut down their engines (set on stop) will detection be lost/gradually lost due to lack of engine sounds to track?

Not sure how that actually applied IRL.

Due to how the "assured acquisition" mechanic in game works & hydro/radar being just range extensions of that mechanic I'm guessing not.

I really hope WG changes the assured detection range for subs, because its going to make ASW work impossible, everytime the DD tries to get close to drop depth charges everyone opens fire on the DD. rip

 

Quote

Forgive my ignorance if this seems like an obviously stupid question...not sure if that was a viable strategy for breaking detection once detected although I know it was a viable strategy for avoiding detection in the 1st place (based on every sub movie having that "shut down the engines & everybody be quiet" scene).

Also...seeing as all CV attack planes in the game have a hidden compartment w/a squadron of fighter planes in their storage bays might subs be able to have a hidden compartment water tank w/maybe some whales inside to release & throw off the hydro readings? I know I know...that suggestion is too close to IRL & this is just a video game...nevermind.

It depends on the sonar. There are two kinds, active and passive. Active sonar like the british ASDIC emits a signal and listens for the signal to be bounced back. So hiding stationary is not going to be so helpful there. However there are situations where it might, there is something called the thermocline which is basically where water temperature changes rapidly that sound waves dont travel through very well, in fact many times they bounce off of it. If a sub is found a spot where it can get under the thermocline it can hide from the ASDIC. Other ways to hide include releasing a large bubble of air from the ballast tanks or fuel which might be read as the sub by the sonar operator. 

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2 hours ago, KaptainNemo_1 said:

If we end up with subs that cannot stay under water for even as long as I can hold my breath they will not feel at all like subs. I get that there has to be a drawback to being under water, but having to pop up every 45 seconds for air was not the traditional one. Rather, the sub has 0 visibility if it is below periscope depth, cannot move very quickly while under water (prior to nukes), and makes more noise the faster it is.

I have to agree with this actually...forcing the sub to surface is a whole pickle jar. If you don't then at the end of a match if you are left with a BB with no ASW weapons how is he supposed to kill a DD if it never surfaces? This is a dilemma...I know if you did not force them to surface then the speed factor itself should give the edge back to the BB. Perhaps the actual times this is actually a potential problem may be minimal as there is always the points to win factor and if a submerged sub can not cap then that could actually work for the BB and against the submerged sub. Perhaps it may be a good thing that are are "NOT" required to surface which if this is the choice of the sub skipper he will have to stay down but at the slower speeds which won't help them. Lotta ways to look at this one issue...making them have to surface I am not a fan of and I am a BB main. 

Sidenote: If they are not forced to worry about surfacing this could help in that the engineers do not have to worry about that aspect to incorporate into the game.

That is a pickle...

Image result for pickle

Edited by C_D

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Depth chargers should incapacitate modules just like shells do to steering gears and engines. 

If depth charges incapacitate raising and lower the angle the sub moves in the water (up or down) and they hit repair then incapacitates again then sub should be dead in water and be killed. 

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From one of the other threads + other ideas

They have a lot of difficult balancing acts for sure, Personally I think that for balance the following are in direct opposition and as one aspect gets better the other must get worse

Surface speed vs Concealment. The faster the sub goes surfaced the worse it's concealment must be to balance it's mobility.

Submerge time vs torp range. The longer they can stay submerged the shorter the range of their torps

Dive time vs toughness. Shorter time to dive means less HP and damage resistance.

I also feel that ASW must be an active player controlled activity, I do not want to be reliant only on an automated system, even AA is being made marginally more interactive and you actually kill the CV with your guns/torps once you find them.

Also on ASW I think some form of hedgehog/depthcharge projectors/squid/limbo will be needed as over the stern DCs require a ram attack to execute and trying to ram a fast torp armed target usually get you dead as you eat a bunch of torps. Also they will have to buff these to at least short secondary range because of the time compression factor.

Edit: Yes @CAPTMUDDXX somthing like that and aiming would probably be a surface projection circle/oblong like the torp indicator complete with an "Estimated deflection" as if they are going the speeds I believe they will some sort of assist to aiming will be required. The reason they moved away from these weapons in real life is that they only worked effectively on very slow targets.

Edited by Ellyh

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22 minutes ago, C_D said:

I have to agree with this actually...forcing the sub to surface is a whole pickle jar. If you don't then at the end of a match if you are left with a BB with no ASW weapons how is he supposed to kill a DD if it never surfaces? This is a dilemma...I know if you did not force them to surface then the speed factor itself should give the edge back to the BB. Perhaps the actual times this is actually a potential problem may be minimal as there is always the points to win factor and if a submerged sub can not cap then that could actually work for the BB and against the submerged sub. Perhaps it may be a good thing that are are "NOT" required to surface which if this is the choice of the sub skipper he will have to stay down but at the slower speeds which won't help them. Lotta ways to look at this one issue...making them have to surface I am not a fan of and I am a BB main. 

Sidenote: If they are not forced to worry about surfacing this could help in that the engineers do not have to worry about that aspect to incorporate into the game.

That is a pickle...

 

This is one of my concerns, it could result in a lot of "Slow dead games" as a faster BB or CA that can't hit the sub is forced to spend 5-10 mins playing the cap game and waiting for the game timer to count down/points to reach 1000. This is already an occasional problem with DDs but it is rare and really unexciting for both the remaining players and those dead and watching to see who wins.

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7 minutes ago, Ellyh said:

This is one of my concerns, it could result in a lot of "Slow dead games" as a faster BB or CA that can't hit the sub is forced to spend 5-10 mins playing the cap game and waiting for the game timer to count down/points to reach 1000. This is already an occasional problem with DDs but it is rare and really unexciting for both the remaining players and those dead and watching to see who wins.

Guess that what the test server may reveal if it is really a valid concern or not....however the other side to that coin is..to surface and take your chances on the surface dodging shells...could be fun....probably a lot better than a BB trying to kill the last CV huh...had to throw that in.

Someone in another thread asked what benefit do they, Submarines, bring to the table.

1. I think they can actually bring more dimensions to a stagnating game for one.

2. Another challenge

3. A "Fifth Element"...chicken

4. Variety

5. A way to put those smug surface dwellers in their place.

6. Who doesn't like new things???

7. Wargaming can be happy selling new botes hence keep the game alive a bit longer.

8. My friends over at subsim.com may begin to migrate growing the player base....Neal be good to sea ya in the game some.

9. This is just a magical wonderful place to call home for the Silent Service crowd.

10. Since all we have to go off of is the Halloween event as far as seeing them in the game,  from that alone I see a lot of potential ....good or bad we will have to wait and see....although anything they do I don't think it will be game breaking.

Edited by C_D

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this maybe a dumb idea but if DD's are to be sub hunters shouldn't they have some form of sonar to detect the sub's but to keep balance there should be a speed limit that the sonar can be used at ( like a tow behind verson) and maybe the cruisers with hydro be able to pick up the general location of a sub that when its submerged ( if they make this ) using its own sonar to detect what ships are near....now with that it may if it works can give sub's a chance to do what they to best and yet give other classes a fighting chance ( that's if they aren't all low tier BB players who don't know what the A and D key are for) to run, attack or chase

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12 minutes ago, WoWShoea said:

this maybe a dumb idea but if DD's are to be sub hunters shouldn't they have some form of sonar to detect the sub's but to keep balance there should be a speed limit that the sonar can be used at ( like a tow behind verson) and maybe the cruisers with hydro be able to pick up the general location of a sub that when its submerged ( if they make this ) using its own sonar to detect what ships are near....now with that it may if it works can give sub's a chance to do what they to best and yet give other classes a fighting chance ( that's if they aren't all low tier BB players who don't know what the A and D key are for) to run, attack or chase

Short answer NO

Long answer, This is a classic case where real life constraints should absolutely be dropped, especially as Hydro is Sonar and it doesn't work on surface ships doing 30 in real life but works fine in game at 30 knots

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12 minutes ago, WoWShoea said:

this maybe a dumb idea but if DD's are to be sub hunters shouldn't they have some form of sonar to detect the sub's but to keep balance there should be a speed limit that the sonar can be used at ( like a tow behind verson) and maybe the cruisers with hydro be able to pick up the general location of a sub that when its submerged ( if they make this ) using its own sonar to detect what ships are near....now with that it may if it works can give sub's a chance to do what they to best and yet give other classes a fighting chance ( that's if they aren't all low tier BB players who don't know what the A and D key are for) to run, attack or chase

I was thinking that it might be cool if there were two different mechanisms. The first would be that when subs try and do things, like preparing to launch torps, launching torps, reloading, damage control, maneuvering, etc any ships with ASW equipment that are close and slow enough get some kind of auditory notification. For example if a sub tries to sprint into location a DD might hear props turning things like that. Something specific enough to give a hit of what the sub is doing but that people could easily miss if they are not paying attention. Then they would have a sonar consumable which would be better at detecting subs in the direction the players guns are pointing and at lower speeds. 

 

This is ASW after all and the subs dont have many choices after being detected. So its gotta be a little cat and mouse to actually find the damned things. 

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Hey all, heres a link for anyone interested in a post I made a few months ago based on this very topic. It's too long to post so take a look if ya want.

 

 

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The issue of speed is really going to depend on how far WG goes with the line. if the XXI is say a tier 8 and the line starts at tier 1 it's not going to be too big of an issue. once you get to post war US sub's you are going to be running with speeds of almost as much as Battleship's. and it's really going to depend on what WG ends at. Is the USS Nauatlis going to be a tier 9 premium? Skate/Skipjack is the most likely tier 10 then.

 

WG can adjust speed overall I'd say as fast as a BB on the water surface(for tiers 1-8) and slightly slower Speed on the surface than say the Montana, but Speed equivalent to say the Des monies underwater for tier 9-10.

 

WG will adjust the speed of submarines to match WOW compacted battles. That much is certain.

I'm more interested in WG lines for the USN, and german subs. I don't think they will pass up selling the USS Natalius, but that also puts german subs into a problem.

As for torpedo's I'd prefer if WG stuck with historical trends and gave Submarines slower, and less ranger torp in exchange for massively increasing the alpha to compensate for them, while leaving the reload pretty slow, say 2 -3 Minutes for each tube. For example:

Balao tier 6 submarine would have Mark 14 torps stock with 46 knots speed, and 8KM range, but would have say 30-40,000 Damage, and for subs would have some sort of flood this would be a 100% gurrentee and do more damage than normal. BB, Cruisers and Carriers would take full damage while DD would take only 1/8 to ensure that Submarines counter wouldn't be completely worthless against subs.

In addition I'm going to take the autoloaders from World of tanks, Submarines cannot fire every tub at once, firing one tube causes a cool-down on the next one of say 10-20 seconds, ensuring you don't just send 4 torpedo's at the same time and insta poping a full HP tier 8 battleship.

To counter all this I would give each tier of submarine 500 HP. with an additional 100 added for each tier. so tier 1 has 500, tier 10, 1500. This would ensure that Subs are 100% glass canon's and unlike CV who are a gigantic threat to DD even when they are spotted, would be anhalited if they ever get spotted.

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