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Why are good clans penalized in clan battles?

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So it is extremely hard to advance in clan battles if you get too far ahead of the competition. I feel this is extremely unfair. It leads to clan battles being unfun and too stressful and tedious when you know that any mistake in a game could end up costing you 45 points in a loss and winning only gets you like 6 points.

Case in point: We were 40 points shy of hurricane last night and we had to go 10-2 to just squeak in to Hurricane before the night ended. We had to win 5 battles for every loss. Teams in the lower leagues don't have these problems as the system is biased only against good teams. And we have to sit for a long time in queue for MM to even find a team for us. If we could just get matched up right away with whatever team is waiting in queue, it would be a lot easier and we could get a lot more battles in per night.

Edited by Lexington_MuseumO7
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I bet you woulda won more than 10 of 12 if you weren't restricted to that weird rolly ball and console setup too. 

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Just now, Kebobstuzov said:

I bet you woulda won more than 10 of 12 if you weren't restricted to that weird rolly ball and console setup too. 

The hours suck, too, hard to play when you have to trespass afterhours 

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Your just ahead of the curve. Similar to how I have really just stopped ranked all week because the sub R5 queue is not very quick.

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1 minute ago, Lexington_MuseumO7 said:

if you get too far ahead of the competition

summary of post for us "not as gud players". "I only like playing the game when I win. I don't care if others lose in the process. I must win or I will quit."

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Just now, Kebobstuzov said:

I bet you woulda won more than 10 of 12 if you weren't restricted to that weird rolly ball and console setup too. 

Trying to adjust aim on Le Fantasques and Le Terribles is really hard.

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1 minute ago, Kebobstuzov said:

I bet you woulda won more than 10 of 12 if you weren't restricted to that weird rolly ball and console setup too. 

The sad reality is that he is way better with the rolly ball than a traditional mouse/keyboard.  Not all Submarine mains are made the same...

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1 minute ago, skillztowin said:

summary of post for us "not as gud players". "I only like playing the game when I win. I don't care if others lose in the process. I must win or I will quit."

I believe he intended not to say it is bad to lose, but that the disproportionate reward vs penalty is very punishing and demoralizing. And the issue if queue time further compounds this negative experience!

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Looks to me like there's a huge fax machine in the USS Lexington museum, printing true threads left and right.

Edited by GE_Capital
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I guess the issue is that there are a lot of clans which have too few games for their ranking to reach their "true" skill level. Clans which would eventually make Hurricane are still in Storm or Typhoon III (for example), meaning that the game algorithm thinks that O7 should stomp them (and get few points) while in reality they are only (for example) 2:3 underdogs (as they would eventually also reach Hurricane, they just haven't played enough). 

Maybe for the first few weeks of clan battles the algorithm should have some weight towards the previous season's results - perhaps a 50-battle moving average which carries across seasons. 

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4 minutes ago, Kebobstuzov said:

I believe he intended not to say it is bad to lose, but that the disproportionate reward vs penalty is very punishing and demoralizing. And the issue if queue time further compounds this negative experience!

I can agree, there is also another unintended effect of the mm based as it is. clans that are pushing into typhoon usually have to beat the league above the one that they are trying to get into. as of today there are only 24 clans above storm 1.  Of the 700ish clans in clan wars, that is about the top 3 to 4 % that play the game. So I would agree that the penalty of a loss is high. You are the top >1%,  when you are playing against my clan as an example. We are rank 38 on the server top 5%. What would be a fair point loss or gain for both sides? we are punching up to the top of the server at Hurricane while in storm.  

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1 minute ago, MEANN said:

What would be a fair point loss or gain for both sides? we are punching up to the top of the server at Hurricane while in storm.  

Perhaps keep or amplify the bonus for beating higher ranked teams without penalizing those higher ranked teams so harshly for a slip up

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2 minutes ago, Kebobstuzov said:

Perhaps keep or amplify the bonus for beating higher ranked teams without penalizing those higher ranked teams so harshly for a slip up

so in a loss to a storm team only carry a 25 point standard. or base it on the teams position. ie we are 38 on the server and the top 50 clans would only cost 25 points on a loss and if you lose to a team out of the top 50 you get the whole 40 to 50. 

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2 minutes ago, Kebobstuzov said:

Perhaps keep or amplify the bonus for beating higher ranked teams without penalizing those higher ranked teams so harshly for a slip up

I agree with this principal, but we have to be careful on the formula so that spamming max games/teams does not result in an easier path than well planned/played teams.

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5 minutes ago, MEANN said:

I can agree, there is also another unintended effect of the mm based as it is. clans that are pushing into typhoon usually have to beat the league above the one that they are trying to get into. as of today there are only 24 clans above storm 1.  Of the 700ish clans in clan wars, that is about the top 3 to 4 % that play the game. So I would agree that the penalty of a loss is high. You are the top >1%,  when you are playing against my clan as an example. We are rank 38 on the server top 5%. What would be a fair point loss or gain for both sides? we are punching up to the top of the server at Hurricane while in storm.  

Yeah, we didn't have to play clans above us in our promotion games. We played a clan from Asia (no clue where they are ranked), R-R-R and PWP. So I don't think its much of a problem.

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2 minutes ago, Kebobstuzov said:

Perhaps keep or amplify the bonus for beating higher ranked teams without penalizing those higher ranked teams so harshly for a slip up

Technically, that would shift everyone to a higher clan ranking. The question is whether or not the true statistical relationship between clan skill and relative win rates matches the reward ratios. I don't think anyone has actually done the analysis, or if the data required is even obtainable. 

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7 minutes ago, MEANN said:

I can agree, there is also another unintended effect of the mm based as it is. clans that are pushing into typhoon usually have to beat the league above the one that they are trying to get into. as of today there are only 24 clans above storm 1.  Of the 700ish clans in clan wars, that is about the top 3 to 4 % that play the game. So I would agree that the penalty of a loss is high. You are the top >1%,  when you are playing against my clan as an example. We are rank 38 on the server top 5%. What would be a fair point loss or gain for both sides? we are punching up to the top of the server at Hurricane while in storm.  

Wow. Really hammering home that top 50 clan thing. Huh?

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1 minute ago, MaxL_1023 said:

Technically, that would shift everyone to a higher clan ranking. The question is whether or not the true statistical relationship between clan skill and relative win rates matches the reward ratios. I don't think anyone has actually done the analysis, or if the data required is even obtainable. 

I think the WCW bot can provide the data, but will require a ton of search queries. 

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2 minutes ago, Melskiloco said:

I think the WCW bot can provide the data, but will require a ton of search queries. 

It would be interesting to see just how often "upsets" occur in CW - probably more often than in NCAA Basketball (lol). 

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3 minutes ago, MikeOxmauI said:

Wow. Really hammering home that top 50 clan thing. Huh?

i often wonder why trolls hide their stats  and assume that someone is being a braggart. I was giving context to a problem of skill to position in rank based match making.   

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1 minute ago, MEANN said:

i often wonder why trolls hide their stats  and assume that someone is being a braggart. I was giving context to a problem of skill to position in rank based match making.   

I was merely stating the obvious though.... 

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7 minutes ago, MaxL_1023 said:

Technically, that would shift everyone to a higher clan ranking. The question is whether or not the true statistical relationship between clan skill and relative win rates matches the reward ratios. I don't think anyone has actually done the analysis, or if the data required is even obtainable. 

True, we also really don't want a repeat of that event a while back where a mediocre team was ranked #1 despite a sub 50% winrate. It's definitely a delicate balance that must be struck.

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4 minutes ago, Kebobstuzov said:

True, we also really don't want a repeat of that event a while back where a mediocre team was ranked #1 despite a sub 50% winrate. It's definitely a delicate balance that must be struck.

Spam 4 the win is not something I would willingly participate in again.

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48 minutes ago, Kebobstuzov said:

not to say it is bad to lose

intended or not. that is what is written.

with much respect kebob o7.  as a clan leader of a young clan I can tell you we LIKE that WG creates these steps. Sometimes Half our players do not have 19pt captains or even mount their flags. We even have a few that insist broadside is a solid tactic and struggle to focus fire. I can tell when clans we face off against are in the same situation. our games are fun. sometimes we win, sometimes we lose.  as intended. My clan has no business being in the same battle as all your purple clans. and its frustrating to go up against your joke bravo teams like in the recent ichase video. hard to keep the interest of newer players when they get slaughtered.

Purple clans should be in their own category (as they are). Enjoy the prestige hurricane earns.you  and then Rise to your self created challenge... Get Gud-er!. 

And please note, the earnings are far better the higher you get at the squal or storm level.

BTW. this post is telling to how people would react to changing the MM to a structured tier.  many purple players would not like it just the same because they would find themselves losing more often.  

I get it. once you get use to winning, its what you expect to happen. 

Edited by skillztowin

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