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JediMasterDraco

CV and Sub Game Modes

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I know some elements of the playerbase are going to want my head on a plater for this so I'll start off with the disclaimer that I love CVs.

Anyways, one of the periods of testing that is supposedly going to take place with submarines is a separate class of battles on the live server. My suggestion is that this be the endgame for development and then a similar mode is created for CVs.

Essentially, these two game modes would be "Challenge" modes, with their balance somewhat skewed towards their respective class. In exchange for basically making themselves into targets, the players who use surface ships would receive higher base xp earnings. Or optionally, at least for CV mode, they could utilize the various collectible buffs that were a part of the year's first ranked season since these give virtually no benefit to a CV. Yeah I know it's basically surrendering to those folks who ask for a "No CV" Button, but hopefully the promise of higher rewards would draw in those who either want to progress rapidly through a new line or to those who just grab a couple lines at first and now want to expand their fleet. Heck, given that the Research Bureau is pretty much confirmed to be happening, these modes would be great for those who have reset lines since they already know the playstyle.

Yeah I realize I'm probably going to be raked over the coals for this, but it's a suggestion that I'd hope would satisfy people. Anti-CVers/Anti-Subers would be able to play the standard two-dimensional game (which somewhere between 70% and 90% of games are as is), CVs would once again be able to be a powerful class outside without the captain needing to be a unicum, and Sub fanboys wouldn't need to worry about their class going through the same foul-up that CVs have endured. Who knows, maybe trying to appeal to different crowds with different modes would satisfy more people than trying to balance everything in one mode. It could be something that could breathe life into this game.

Heck, if this does come to pass, I'll make a promise right now that I will forswear Randoms in favor of just playing in these two modes. I'll even play a piss-poor AA ship like Ashitaka or Arizona once a week if that'll get this idea established.

So what do you think? Three separate modes for three different types of gameplay or should I go back on my meds?

Edited by JediMasterDraco
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you just want cv gone

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I'll take the BB/DD easy mode for $1000 Alex.     

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Nope.  I don't want your head on a platter just...don't say stupid things,  yeah?

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1 hour ago, JediMasterDraco said:

I know some elements of the playerbase are going to want my head on a plater for this so I'll start off with the disclaimer that I love CVs.

Anyways, one of the periods of testing that is supposedly going to take place with submarines is a separate class of battles on the live server. My suggestion is that this be the endgame for development and then a similar mode is created for CVs.

Essentially, these two game modes would be "Challenge" modes, with their balance somewhat skewed towards their respective class. In exchange for basically making themselves into targets, the players who use surface ships would receive higher base xp earnings. Or optionally, at least for CV mode, they could utilize the various collectible buffs that were a part of the year's first ranked season since these give virtually no benefit to a CV. Yeah I know it's basically surrendering to those folks who ask for a "No CV" Button, but hopefully the promise of higher rewards would draw in those who either want to progress rapidly through a new line or to those who just grab a couple lines at first and now want to expand their fleet. Heck, given that the Research Bureau is pretty much confirmed to be happening, these modes would be great for those who have reset lines since they already know the playstyle.

Yeah I realize I'm probably going to be raked over the coals for this, but it's a suggestion that I'd hope would satisfy people. Anti-CVers/Anti-Subers would be able to play the standard two-dimensional game (which somewhere between 70% and 90% of games are as is), CVs would once again be able to be a powerful class outside without the captain needing to be a unicum, and Sub fanboys wouldn't need to worry about their class going through the same foul-up that CVs have endured. Who knows, maybe trying to appeal to different crowds with different modes would satisfy more people than trying to balance everything in one mode. It could be something that could breathe life into this game.

Heck, if this does come to pass, I'll make a promise right now that I will forswear Randoms in favor of just playing in these two modes. I'll even play a piss-poor AA ship like Ashitaka or Arizona once a week if that'll get this idea established.

So what do you think? Three separate modes for three different types of gameplay or should I go back on my meds?

My personal feeling is - absolutely not. There is decent reasoning for subs to be in their own mode right now. That is mainly a functional one. The main game isn't built with underwater functionality right now. The maps aren't built with it and the game was not designed with any of the anti-sub measures. It was never built with even a thought of those. That was never the case with CVs. It had CVs and AA functions from very early. The issue was whether some players liked having them around. There was, and always will be, a contingent of players that prefer to be playing WWI style fights in WWII era even though CVs were a powerful force in WWII. I disagree but I respect that opinion. The second issue with CVs is how well the actual numbers were balanced not whether the functionality was even there. That is a more concrete issue but it is fixable with time. Balance has always been a problem in this game (and almost every other game ever) and it is an ongoing struggle.

Subs have to be in a separate mode for now because they have to build and test every aspect of that from the ground up. They have to test underwater terrain, (which also means they have to build and test real sinking animations rather than what they use now). They also have to test true combat in 3 dimensions because subs, unlike planes in the game, have actual degrees of depth. All of that has to be built and tested in a pseudo live environment so it doesn't break the game. CV play wasn't being built from the ground up, it was just reworked. There's a difference. Also if you remember, CVs were very briefly in their own special sandbox until they were sure the reworked items actually functioned.

If they want to put an opt out for other classes like CVs they need to do so for all of them. I love my cruisers, and I dislike how every T10 match I am in has 5 BBs. I want to opt out of BBs. Or, I want to play the battlecruiser phase at Jutland with WWII ships but I don't want DDs to mess up the fun. To me, if people play the game people play with all of it not the parts they find convenient. Once they get the sub mechanics in and implements underwater combat, if they think then can merge it into the main game I am all for it. I'm not sure I want to play those but I am up for the challenge of playing against them. I do not want separate modes that sandbox ship classes out. 

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Are you suggesting this as the only place to play CVs, or just an additional one? Because the former is a "hard no", and the latter is a "sure, why not".

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1 hour ago, JediMasterDraco said:

I know some elements of the playerbase are going to want my head on a plater for this so I'll start off with the disclaimer that I love CVs.

Anyways, one of the periods of testing that is supposedly going to take place with submarines is a separate class of battles on the live server. My suggestion is that this be the endgame for development and then a similar mode is created for CVs.

Essentially, these two game modes would be "Challenge" modes, with their balance somewhat skewed towards their respective class. In exchange for basically making themselves into targets, the players who use surface ships would receive higher base xp earnings. Or optionally, at least for CV mode, they could utilize the various collectible buffs that were a part of the year's first ranked season since these give virtually no benefit to a CV. Yeah I know it's basically surrendering to those folks who ask for a "No CV" Button, but hopefully the promise of higher rewards would draw in those who either want to progress rapidly through a new line or to those who just grab a couple lines at first and now want to expand their fleet. Heck, given that the Research Bureau is pretty much confirmed to be happening, these modes would be great for those who have reset lines since they already know the playstyle.

Yeah I realize I'm probably going to be raked over the coals for this, but it's a suggestion that I'd hope would satisfy people. Anti-CVers/Anti-Subers would be able to play the standard two-dimensional game (which somewhere between 70% and 90% of games are as is), CVs would once again be able to be a powerful class outside without the captain needing to be a unicum, and Sub fanboys wouldn't need to worry about their class going through the same foul-up that CVs have endured. Who knows, maybe trying to appeal to different crowds with different modes would satisfy more people than trying to balance everything in one mode. It could be something that could breathe life into this game.

Heck, if this does come to pass, I'll make a promise right now that I will forswear Randoms in favor of just playing in these two modes. I'll even play a piss-poor AA ship like Ashitaka or Arizona once a week if that'll get this idea established.

So what do you think? Three separate modes for three different types of gameplay or should I go back on my meds?

Having, say, four sandboxes (CV, SS, Gunboat, and Everything) would be great for player choice, but horrible for queue times barring some miraculous leap in player numbers.

 

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22 minutes ago, Tzarevitch said:

My personal feeling is - absolutely not. There is decent reasoning for subs to be in their own mode right now. That is mainly a functional one. The main game isn't built with underwater functionality right now. The maps aren't built with it and the game was not designed with any of the anti-sub measures. It was never built with even a thought of those. That was never the case with CVs. It had CVs and AA functions from very early. The issue was whether some players liked having them around. There was, and always will be, a contingent of players that prefer to be playing WWI style fights in WWII era even though CVs were a powerful force in WWII. I disagree but I respect that opinion. The second issue with CVs is how well the actual numbers were balanced not whether the functionality was even there. That is a more concrete issue but it is fixable with time. Balance has always been a problem in this game (and almost every other game ever) and it is an ongoing struggle.

Subs have to be in a separate mode for now because they have to build and test every aspect of that from the ground up. They have to test underwater terrain, (which also means they have to build and test real sinking animations rather than what they use now). They also have to test true combat in 3 dimensions because subs, unlike planes in the game, have actual degrees of depth. All of that has to be built and tested in a pseudo live environment so it doesn't break the game. CV play wasn't being built from the ground up, it was just reworked. There's a difference. Also if you remember, CVs were very briefly in their own special sandbox until they were sure the reworked items actually functioned.

If they want to put an opt out for other classes like CVs they need to do so for all of them. I love my cruisers, and I dislike how every T10 match I am in has 5 BBs. I want to opt out of BBs. Or, I want to play the battlecruiser phase at Jutland with WWII ships but I don't want DDs to mess up the fun. To me, if people play the game people play with all of it not the parts they find convenient. Once they get the sub mechanics in and implements underwater combat, if they think then can merge it into the main game I am all for it. I'm not sure I want to play those but I am up for the challenge of playing against them. I do not want separate modes that sandbox ship classes out. 

I agree completely. While some people might not like it, this game is based on naval warfare without some definitive, and restrictive, role. All its aspects should be present.

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What is the % of battles with CVs?
I'm myself a CV player, but 2 x 2 CVs is too much, it should be limited to 1 x 1 CVs, CV tech tree is longer than other trees... so there are less CV players (at least, I guess).
Same with SS, 1 x 1 should be enough.
Majority of players play BBs and CLs, less DDs.
Some battles are BB/CL, some BB/CL/DD, some BB/CL/DD/CV, some will be with and without SS.
Players should stop complaining... DD players complain about CVs as planes can spot them and it's not that easy to sneak into the other side of the map, or hide behind an island and torp a BB or a CL, etc... Or a CL player sitting behind an island the whole battle, etc... If you like that kind of playing, stay with no CVs and SSs...
Currently, CV issues are mostly owed to lack of testing, probably somebody at WG thought it's cheaper to test with the player base... Anyway, they obviously are planning to do it seriously with SSs.

Real CV issue is the fact they can spot "too much" on the beginning on the battle. I understand that, think the best solution is have the CVs waiting for a couple of minutes, allowing them to navigate of course.

SSs will add a lot to the battles... They indeed will lurk around looking for some juicy BBs, CLs & CVs sitting behind islands.

Frankly speaking, BBs and CLs sitting behind the right islands game after game or DDs sneaking into the other side of the map sailing as close as possible to the limits of the map are killing the game, much more than CVs or SSs.  

Naval warfare is a war of movement.

Stop complaining, bring ideas other than, "let's play with no CVs, no planes, no SSs".

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6 minutes ago, franz_von_goltz said:

Frankly speaking, BBs and CLs sitting behind the right islands game after game or DDs sneaking into the other side of the map sailing as close as possible to the limits of the map are killing the game, much more than CVs or SSs.

And, generally, those are the most likely people to still be having a fit about CVs, since CVs have a better chance of finding/seeing those people doing their stealth/hiding behind a rock thing.

 

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1 minute ago, agm114r said:

And, generally, those are the most likely people to still be having a fit about CVs, since CVs have a better chance of finding/seeing those people doing their stealth/hiding behind a rock thing.

 

Of course... As a CV player, I'm often trying to attack CLs behind rocks. The only way to success vs a Des Moines or a Minotaur, is to fly over the island, turn just on time, drop... In a few seconds otherwise the whole thing is a firework... Works sometimes, sometimes not, as I can see bursts coming while my planes are still not seeing the CL... Waiting WG nerfs those Des Moines and Minotaurs... And SSs lurking around. DD stealth solution, particularly with CVs is to not hide behind islands, but sail just behind the fleet. Risky as some big gun can target the CV and sink, particularly when the auto pilot bugs.

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2 hours ago, Idaho_Spud said:

Having, say, four sandboxes (CV, SS, Gunboat, and Everything) would be great for player choice, but horrible for queue times barring some miraculous leap in player numbers.

 

Having 2 sandboxes, Everything and Gunboats, would be nice.  But WG won't do that, because once the submarine novelty wears off, they'll find out that the majority don't want to be playing/play against CVs, and the Everything queues times would skyrocket. 

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6 hours ago, MajorRenegade said:

you just want cv gone

That's a negative. I'm a big fan of CVs. I'm just sick of them being forced into a state where one needs to be a unicum in order to get any enjoyment out of the type. I figure if we give the anti-CV whiners a game mode without CVs, then CVs will be free to be more like they were on the rework test server rather than the weak mess they currently are. I love to play CVs, but not when half my squadron gets taken out before I can launch my first strike.

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