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Dragonmalice

Scoring and coop gripes

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I've got a few things to gripe about - the first one is general, the other is more specific to coop.

I can't understand the scoring system in this game.  You implement player killer penalties, karma, and say you're trying to promote a friendly atmosphere, but then force players into cut-throat competition for the only way to score points - damage.  I just had a match in a BB with over 2 million potential damage.  I was in a tight group of 4 friendly ships and was just the lucky one that go focused on.  No big deal - that's why BB's have armor.  I spent most of the time soaking up fire and unable to return fire because my turrets were constantly offline.  The others in my group were free to maneuver and maximize their damage.  I angled, soaked up the fire, and took the hits as long as I could and enabled the others to do their thing.  Why does this merit a last place score?  If the scoring actually encouraged teamwork, you wouldn't have to penalize friendly fire so much because everyone wouldn't have take risky shots and launch torpedoes from suboptimal positions.  You're tracking potential damage, spotting damage, spotting torpedoes, and all kinds of metrics and it has no appreciable effect on scoring.  Battleships hide on the edge of the map, destroyers jealously drop smoke where only they can benefit, and cruisers have no reason to launch their plane or use radar to spot for the destroyer unless they benefit as well.  

As for coop:

I only play coop.  I've been playing for a long time, and have racked up 9700 matches in coop.  I've played 61 matches in random.  I don't like competing with other people, and avoid PVP in every game I play.  Take that as an indication of how little chance there is of me switching to random play at this point.  If they fixed the scoring system so that coop would actually be *cooperative*, add some bots to extend the matches a bit, and cut the crap with matches ending early, I'd be in heaven.

1) Please, please, please drop the [edited] where the match ends with enemy ships alive!  I can understand the need for it random so one player can't run and hide to punish the winning team, but bots don't run.  You've got the bots programmed to cheat in every possible way - they track torpedo and shell impact points, dodging them before they're fired.  A cruiser with its side on you will suddenly veer towards you if you switch to AP, then back to it's side the moment you go back to HE.  I literally can't think of an instance where an AI battleship fired at one of my cruisers and didn't score a citadel (from any angle).  A player battleship lands a perfect salvo into a bot cruiser's citadel and it's a 1000 damage (or bounces!) - then the bot gets low on health and has 8 torpedoes about to hit it.  Lo and behold, CITADEL!  The bots' volleys come out touching, but the players' volleys shotgun.  You can light the first fire on a bot immediately, but once their repair is used it might take a hundred rounds to light another.  The bots are literally choosing whether to get hit, and whether to take damage.  I understand the need for all of this - players are still overwhelmingly winning every match.  It's just frustrating to see matches ending after 3 minutes with 2 enemy ships at full strength.  The only way to earn credits and score well is to do damage, and you're robbing us of that at every step - first volley misses, second volley bounces, third volley lands as someone else's torpedoes kill it.  Sweet, I'm on top of two full strength bots and starting to do some damage - and the match ends.

2) Please stop punishing players for being low tier.  It already sucks to be the only tier 5 ship in a tier 7 match.  Having every bot in the match prioritize getting rid of the lowest threat on the map is just asinine.

3) We all know bots like to chase destroyers.  Maybe it's time to change it up, pick a random target to go haring off after?

4) I don't suppose we could have an option to have only bots (or division mates) on our team?

5) Do you think you could upgrade your random number generator to work after the beginning of the match?  As nice as it is to occasionally get a match where I get a citadel with every shot I fire, that is more than countered by the landslide of matches where every volley I fire does 1200 damage for the entire match - regardless of range, target, angle, or dispersion.  It's literally like I roll the dice at the start of the match, and that's what I get for the duration.  Computers are capable of quite a few operations per second now!

Edited by Dragonmalice
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54 minutes ago, Dragonmalice said:

) Please, please, please drop the [edited] where the match ends with enemy ships alive!  I can understand the need for it random so one player can't run and hide to punish the winning team, but bots don't run.  You've got the bots programmed to cheat in every possible way - they track torpedo and shell impact points, dodging them before they're fired.  A cruiser with its side on you will suddenly veer towards you if you switch to AP, then back to it's side the moment you go back to HE.  I literally can't think of an instance where an AI battleship fired at one of my cruisers and didn't score a citadel (from any angle).  A player battleship lands a perfect salvo into a bot cruiser's citadel and it's a 1000 damage (or bounces!) - then the bot gets low on health and has 8 torpedoes about to hit it.  Lo and behold, CITADEL!  The bots' volleys come out touching, but the players' volleys shotgun.  You can light the first fire on a bot immediately, but once their repair is used it might take a hundred rounds to light another.  The bots are literally choosing whether to get hit, and whether to take damage.  I understand the need for all of this - players are still overwhelmingly winning every match.  It's just frustrating to see matches ending after 3 minutes with 2 enemy ships at full strength.  The only way to earn credits and score well is to do damage, and you're robbing us of that at every step - first volley misses, second volley bounces, third volley lands as someone else's torpedoes kill it.  Sweet, I'm on top of two full strength bots and starting to do some damage - and the match ends.

2) Please stop punishing players for being low tier.  It already sucks to be the only tier 5 ship in a tier 7 match.  Having every bot in the match prioritize getting rid of the lowest threat on the map is just asinine.

3) We all know bots like to chase destroyers.  Maybe it's time to change it up, pick a random target to go haring off after?

4) I don't suppose we could have an option to have only bots (or division mates) on our team?

5) Do you think you could upgrade your random number generator to work after the beginning of the match?  As nice as it is to occasionally get a match where I get a citadel with every shot I fire, that is more than countered by the landslide of matches where every volley I fire does 1200 damage for the entire match - regardless of range, target, angle, or dispersion.  It's literally like I roll the dice at the start of the match, and that's what I get for the duration.  Computers are capable of quite a few operations per second now!

  1. No
  2. Get Good Its co-op
  3. No
  4. No.
  5. You're nuts... NO.. Better your aim.

co-op right now, is perfect. I mean its in a good spot ATM... Why? I do say why would you want to change an easy to play/easy to farm game mode?

Your changes are not warranted, not needed and the few who do complain, just dont understand how good co-op is atm. 

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I can he top of team with JB or Georgia....

Alsace, bismark and Republique....

Secondaries for the score....

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4 hours ago, Navalpride33 said:

co-op right now, is perfect. I mean its in a good spot ATM... Why? I do say why would you want to change an easy to play/easy to farm game mode?

Your changes are not warranted, not needed and the few who do complain, just dont understand how good co-op is atm. 

Clearly your less than 350 matches in PVE has made you the authority on the mode that you are.

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48 minutes ago, SpudZero said:

Clearly your less than 350 matches in PVE has made you the authority on the mode that you are.

clearly, my time in PTS dont count either...

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6 minutes ago, Navalpride33 said:

clearly, my time in PTS dont count either...

Right, :Smile_teethhappy:

38596x.jpg.af00ac9ecce26608e0cbf876092ba41f.jpg

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14 hours ago, Navalpride33 said:
  1. No
  2. Get Good Its co-op
  3. No
  4. No.
  5. You're nuts... NO.. Better your aim.

co-op right now, is perfect. I mean its in a good spot ATM... Why? I do say why would you want to change an easy to play/easy to farm game mode?

Your changes are not warranted, not needed and the few who do complain, just dont understand how good co-op is atm. 

1) While the depth and thoughtfulness of your replies in general astounds me, I truly don't understand what anyone has against this one.  Why would you want a match to end early in coop?  If you're alive, you're there anyhow.  If you're dead, you don't have to stay.  Either way, it won't add much time to the match and might make a world of difference to one or two people.  I'm seeing the majority of the matches I play end with enemies alive now.

As for the rest of it - I enjoy cooperative experiences with other players, not competing with them.  Debate is always welcome - we're on a forum, after all.  

2) Do you feel this way because you enjoy the challenge of being the lower tier, or because you're always in the higher tiers now?

3) I play cruisers, destroyers, and battleships.  While I enjoy being able to pick the location of the fight when I'm in the destroyer (and I try to make that benefit the team as well), I also find it frustrating to watch the entire enemy team chase one destroyer to the far edge of the map when I'm in a battleship.  I also tend to be fairly aggressive, and am not fond of matches where I'm in the center of the map looking for a brawl and all of the enemies have been lured to the edges.  Why do you feel it's beneficial for the bots to always chase the destroyer?

4) I can understand this one being controversial - just something I would personally enjoy.

5) If it was my sole experience, I'd concur.  It is a recurring theme for everyone who plays in our clan, which is why I bring it up.

Overall, I appreciate the existence of the coop mode - I wouldn't play the game without it.  I guess my answer to you is that I don't see coop as the easy place to farm 100 fires for the current event before going back to randoms - it's where I live.

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@Dragonmalice Even 2 million potential damage adds little to your XP score. It represents rounds/torps that came close to your ship but missed. If you were in as tight a group as you described everyone would have also gotten 2 million potential damage.

Causing a higher percentage of damage to ships, capping and defending caps score the most XP. Sinking a low HP ship scores little.

Co op is a nice mode to play to stay away from the toxic chat but the rewards are low and in higher tiers you can expect to lose credits even in a good win.

Like it or not playing random and scenario modes, ranked and clan battles are the only way to earn reasonable XP and credits.

Of course tier 1 cost nothing win or lose.

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1 hour ago, Dragonmalice said:

1) While the depth and thoughtfulness of your replies in general astounds me, I truly don't understand what anyone has against this one.  Why would you want a match to end early in coop?  If you're alive, you're there anyhow.  If you're dead, you don't have to stay.  Either way, it won't add much time to the match and might make a world of difference to one or two people.  I'm seeing the majority of the matches I play end with enemies alive now.

As for the rest of it - I enjoy cooperative experiences with other players, not competing with them.  Debate is always welcome - we're on a forum, after all.  

2) Do you feel this way because you enjoy the challenge of being the lower tier, or because you're always in the higher tiers now?

3) I play cruisers, destroyers, and battleships.  While I enjoy being able to pick the location of the fight when I'm in the destroyer (and I try to make that benefit the team as well), I also find it frustrating to watch the entire enemy team chase one destroyer to the far edge of the map when I'm in a battleship.  I also tend to be fairly aggressive, and am not fond of matches where I'm in the center of the map looking for a brawl and all of the enemies have been lured to the edges.  Why do you feel it's beneficial for the bots to always chase the destroyer?

4) I can understand this one being controversial - just something I would personally enjoy.

5) If it was my sole experience, I'd concur.  It is a recurring theme for everyone who plays in our clan, which is why I bring it up.

Overall, I appreciate the existence of the coop mode - I wouldn't play the game without it.  I guess my answer to you is that I don't see coop as the easy place to farm 100 fires for the current event before going back to randoms - it's where I live.

Your Clan has some distorted views of Co-op... 

  1. I am not the game developer to give you the lvl of in-depth review you're looking for...  Its simple math, for one Random game equals to 3 Co-op games... In some tiers, you can do better profit wise in Co-op then in regular battles.
  2. High tier gaming is different from low/mid tier gaming... But in Co-op its all the same, its Co-op.
  3. Adapt to the situation and over Come... In other words get gud.

 Think of it this way, with many players who partake in Co-op... Its a %90 loss to the bots. Which means we're killing bots to easy... Why make it easier and pay more for it?? That to me is paying players for taking the lazy way of playing the game...

I recommend using the Schors.... Its easy try it.

Edited by Navalpride33

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On 8/16/2019 at 3:52 PM, CAPTMUDDXX said:

@Dragonmalice Even 2 million potential damage adds little to your XP score. It represents rounds/torps that came close to your ship but missed. If you were in as tight a group as you described everyone would have also gotten 2 million potential damage.

Causing a higher percentage of damage to ships, capping and defending caps score the most XP. Sinking a low HP ship scores little.

Co op is a nice mode to play to stay away from the toxic chat but the rewards are low and in higher tiers you can expect to lose credits even in a good win.

Like it or not playing random and scenario modes, ranked and clan battles are the only way to earn reasonable XP and credits.

Of course tier 1 cost nothing win or lose.

It was all artillery, and no, we weren't touching - just meant to convey that I wasn't lone wolfing.  I recognize after this level of play time what does score - just making suggestions for how the scoring could reward team play rather than everyone being out for themselves.  That point was just that it's not hard to inflict damage when no one is shooting back at you, but you're still getting patted on the back for it.

Coops costs have cut drastically over the past couple years - tier nine matches are usually profitable for me.  I've heard the "you have to play random to level" argument for years, have chosen to ignore it, am playing the high tiers without profit issues.  I'd even argue that Wargaming actually did balance the rewards between coop and random, at least for xp.  It's ironic considering my arguments, but coop matches run so much shorter than randoms (with such a higher win rate) that you can easily do just as much in the same time.  That is at least the case if you play each ship once for the daily bonus - I can see an argument for grinding a single ship out being better in randoms.  Overall, I think Wargaming has done well recognizing there is a PVE only segment - it used to be hard to profit on a tier 6 match, and now 9's usually do okay.  I really don't have a problem with the quantity of rewards, just with how they're calculated.  I would expect any change in those calculations to keep the overall balance the same.

On 8/16/2019 at 4:30 PM, Navalpride33 said:

Your Clan has some distorted views of Co-op... 

  1. I am not the game developer to give you the lvl of in-depth review you're looking for...  Its simple math, for one Random game equals to 3 Co-op games... In some tiers, you can do better profit wise in Co-op then in regular battles.
  2. High tier gaming is different from low/mid tier gaming... But in Co-op its all the same, its Co-op.
  3. Adapt to the situation and over Come... In other words get gud.

 Think of it this way, with many players who partake in Co-op... Its a %90 loss to the bots. Which means we're killing bots to easy... Why make it easier and pay more for it?? That to me is paying players for taking the lazy way of playing the game...

I recommend using the Schors.... Its easy try it.

About the only argument I made for making the game easier was to stop priority targeting low tiered players - and that's mostly because those matches often become a choice between a suicide charge to get some damage, or hiding and scoring poorly.  Remember, we're talking about coop, not a random match where everyone is doing circles for the first 10 minutes and there's actually time to build damage from behind islands.  If anything, most of my arguments are about preventing matches from ending too early and randomizing the bot behavior.  I wouldn't even mind seeing the bots outnumber the players.

The Schors is a fun ship - it went elite quite a while ago, but I kept it and still take it out here and there.  I hear some people do have trouble with her, but that would just bring us back to that "get gud" thing people burp up reflexively.

What the heck, I've played enough online games that I should know damage and dps are the only things people care about.  It's also easy to implement, so I suppose the majority is getting what they want.  I see the nays have it, and I yield :)

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@Dragonmalice In the scenarios the bots do outnumber the humans 2 or 3 times. But WG screwed some of then up with the CV rework garbage. How can one play a CV in a tier 7 scenario when there are no tier 7 CVs.  

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Never got into CV's, but I can see that one being frustrating!  They just put CV's back into coop (finally) - it seems like a turkey shoot right now.  Have they become more difficult to operate after the changes? 

I have enjoyed a lot of the holiday content, and definitely more than one of the scenarios as well.  I tend to come across negatively, but I do appreciate the game overall and the ways they continue to add to it.

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The bots target the lowest HP target, just as humans are supposed to.  Unfortunately, lower tiers usually have less starting HP.

As far as turning PvE into Deathmatch instead of stopping at 1,000 or 0 points, I don't see any good reason to change the game mechanics so a few players can farm some extra credits.  Experienced PvEers already know not to go ripping though the enemy ships too fast.  It would also be irritating to have my ship locked up in a battle while one player dances around to squeeze out a few more points.  If I am grinding in PvE battle length matters.  If it goes 15 or 20 minutes, I might as well have used PvP.

I think the economics are just fine in PvE right now.  it is the most reliable and time efficient way for me to accomplish missions and directives.  I can pretty reliably pick the ship and tier I need to use to generate a certain amount of XP, damage, or credits.

I do like the way you thought through solutions for the issues that bother you :cap_like:

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