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NoZoupForYou

Submarines - Make or Break for WoWS future

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This is a huge pivot point that will either secure the game’s future, or tank it.  They have to get this right.  Even if it takes several years.  I don’t care.  After the CV debacle, they can’t afford anything but success with subs.  

 

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 They better roll it out slow and take a lot more care than they did with the CV cash grab rework

The player base is still all over the place with it

 

I'm kind intrested but I do feel it is a big time for them to shine or fail purely up to them I'm kinda looking forward to seeing it though

Edited by Lexington_MuseumO1
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5 minutes ago, NoZoupForYou said:

This is a huge pivot point that will either secure the game’s future, or tank it.  They have to get this right.  Even if it takes several years.  I don’t care.  After the CV debacle, they can’t afford anything but success with subs.  

Subs, shoved sideways into the current game modes, will not be a success.  There is simply no way to make era-appropriate submarines both fun to play and fun to play against -- and no way to make them either while keeping them within the same framework by which all the existing ships have been translated from reality into the game.  

 

 

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Anyone expecting, or even hoping that WG will actually put any effort into exhaustively testing submarines is a deluded idiot. They'll get the CV rework treatment, be kicked out the door to live servers, and have months of the mods and devs acting confused when everyone calls them on it. Again.

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2 minutes ago, KilljoyCutter said:

Subs, shoved sideways into the current game modes, will not be a success.  There is simply no way to make era-appropriate submarines both fun to play and fun to play against -- and no way to make them either while keeping them within the same framework by which all the existing ships have been translated from reality into the game.  

As if that will stop them. It worked for CV's after all.

Oh, wait.

Edited by Highlord
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5 minutes ago, Highlord said:

As if that will stop them. It worked for CV's after all.

Oh, wait.

It certainly hasn't stopped the rework... which has ironically made CVs harder to balance, harder to find a "mutual fun" point for, and not resolved any of the stated problems that supposedly motivated doing it.   (All as predicted.)

 

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If they dont make the subs playstyle and utility VERY unique not just slightly unique then gonna be a break

Cause otherwise they are just ships etc.

We got enough ships.

Edited by nastydamnanimal

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   Yeah, after the CV rework which I fully bought into and have been disillusioned about, in stages, it's going to be hard to keep an open mind about this sub initiative. But I'm gonna try.

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14 minutes ago, Highlord said:

Anyone expecting, or even hoping that WG will actually put any effort into exhaustively testing submarines is a deluded idiot. They'll get the CV rework treatment, be kicked out the door to live servers, and have months of the mods and devs acting confused when everyone calls them on it. Again.

Prove us wrong, WG.

I will be looking for a lot more information on how they plan to change all the other classes in order to balance the addition of a new class.

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23 minutes ago, Lexington_MuseumO1 said:

 

 They better roll it out slow and take a lot more care than they did with the CV cash grab rework

The player base is still all over the place with it

 

I'm kind intrested but I do feel it is a big time for them to shine or fail purely up to them I'm kinda looking forward to seeing it though

The CV Rework is a big sh*t show.  7 months in it's still a d*mn mess.

 

We would all have been better off if the CV Rework had never happened and the time and effort WG wasted on it been spent on getting Submarines right.

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Since a lot of salt about the CV rework was not justified, the same will happens with Sub. Potato player will cry about sneaky torpedo ''undodgeable'', WG will nerf torpedo detection further to the point where even a blind player will be able to dodge them and we will have sub struggling to be relevant.

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Just now, Roadrider7021 said:

   Yeah, after the CV rework which I fully bought into and have been disillusioned about, in stages, it's going to be hard to keep an open mind about this sub initiative. But I'm gonna try.

I'm with you, and I love the idea of subs in the game, but I have no faith in WG anymore.

2 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Prove us wrong, WG.

I will be looking for a lot more information on how they plan to change all the other classes in order to balance the addition of a new class.

I don't see WG doing anything besides giving a few ships ASW tools, that's it.  They will be left scrambling to fix the mess they've created just like the rework.  The only good news is they will at least be doing this in a separate game mode.  That should give the players that don't want to deal with the mess at least some time before its forced into randoms.

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The special game mode will last at most a month before the dreams of premium bundle cash push subs into live play

 

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For me the CV rework was make or break for the game. Because of how unfun it was playing against CVs, I lost almost all interest in playing to the since 0.8.0. I came back during the Russian BB event to try and unlock some high tier ships early. After the first part of the event ended, I just played ranked sprint ( because no CVs). Because of all the large breaks I took from playing my interest overall has just gone down, to the point where subs just don’t excite me that much. I’m glad they are gonna try them, but at them same time I’m just more indifferent to what happens.

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4 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

I don't see WG doing anything besides giving a few ships ASW tools, that's it.  They will be left scrambling to fix the mess they've created just like the rework.  The only good news is they will at least be doing this in a separate game mode.  That should give the players that don't want to deal with the mess at least some time before its forced into randoms.

The sad thing is that it could be the lever to rebalance the classes and fix a lot of issues under the guise of adding the fifth class. Make BBs better integrated into the game (more tanky, but short range devastating damage)...fix the concealment issues with smaller ships...move DDs from high damage required to screening / support...ensconced cruisers as high DPM ships from range or ambushers... and make CVs the snipers they always should have been.

But I dont see WG sinking the required amount of development time into this. It will just be a rush job to get a half assed concept out to sell premiums before the playerbase realizes they have been sold a load of crap.

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WG already submarined their game. It's lost 50% of it's player base in 4 years, and somehow Zoup thinks this is make or break?:Smile_facepalm:

They failed by not pulling stuff from WOT, and making competitive play modes from the beginning. They failed by not understanding the player base they attracted. They failed by not providing options. They failed by trying the one size fits all attitude. They failed by lack of communication.

Subs will bring a temporary bump, drive as many away as it attracts, and will bring in a bunch of trolls that make the current trolls look like boy scouts. 

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6 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

But I dont see WG sinking the required amount of development time into this. It will just be a rush job to get a half assed concept out to sell premiums before the playerbase realizes they have been sold a load of crap.

 If they do what they did with the rework it Will crush the game 

As with what @Desertfox51 said  I lost a lot of interest during the rework and if they screw up the sub launch it may be too much to recover from for me

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Ugggggg, CV rework left a terrible taste in my mouth.  Now how do you add a new element like subs to the game, and balance without extensive gimmicks?  Underwater speed is of course an issue, sure WG will force them to the surface so that other classes of ships (beyond DDs) can shoot at them.  I know it is just WG trying to add another class to sell more premium ships, and it will be jammed down the community’s throat, but just makes me shake my head as to the direction of the game.  

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20 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

I'm with you, and I love the idea of subs in the game, but I have no faith in WG anymore.

I don't see WG doing anything besides giving a few ships ASW tools, that's it.  They will be left scrambling to fix the mess they've created just like the rework.  The only good news is they will at least be doing this in a separate game mode.  That should give the players that don't want to deal with the mess at least some time before its forced into randoms.

If it takes two years to get them right, so be it.  And if all DDs dont have depth charges that should...  what’s the point.  As pointed out, it merely turns Subs into ships that are sometimes under water.

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39 minutes ago, NoZoupForYou said:

This is a huge pivot point that will either secure the game’s future, or tank it.  They have to get this right.  Even if it takes several years.  I don’t care.  After the CV debacle, they can’t afford anything but success with subs.  

 

Well... look at the history here. First was of course CV rework, that was going to be tested a lot before released. Iirc it was announced in September 2018, and released in late January? So yeah, that was "a really long testing period". Ok, moving on, Naval Training Center and the heated argument. They listened to the player base, this was going to be developed further but it would take a lot more time as they had to go back to the drawing-board on it and whaddaya know Research Bureau is coming next week. Zoup', I really hope you are right, but if we look at the history here, I think there's even a remote chance of a Christmas release at worst or January like last time. I am not sure what department within WG that are pushing things so hard/fast, it's like it is a race to throw content in there without proper testing.

We talked about this in-clan the other day, while the game will persist and continue to be popular for those coming in a whole lot of people who started early on alpha, closed/open beta, just after launch, are finding themselves quite like a stranger at times in a game we've played for years now. I could go on a rant, but I'm out of steam at this point. I rarely play much any more, maybe 2-3 games some days, and does not care as much as I did before. Wish I did, I've had some really good times playing WoWs but games always change, you either live with it or move on and at the moment I'm sitting on the fence, tilted.

I really, really, hope they take proper time to do testing this time around, set aside 6-12 months to be sure and work within that time frame. If subs gets released anywhere near to what the event had them be, it is going to be an utter disaster. Pretty sure DDs will have depth charges, but few but the yolo's and the very good players will go 'hunt' and the rest of the teams will huddle/camp at spawn running hydro like it was a relay run.

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I've already mostly noped out of this game at this point due to the un-ending stream of poor ideas coming from the dev shop.  I stuck it out through the CV debacle, but their proposed implementation of IFHE is the straw that broke the camel's back.

Subs certainly aren't a trend in the right direction.  I don't have any reason to believe that they are capable of an implementation that's both fun to play and fun to play against. 

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9 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

But I dont see WG sinking the required amount of development time into this. It will just be a rush job to get a half assed concept out to sell premiums before the playerbase realizes they have been sold a load of crap.

You're right about the money, but its not only a money issue.  If WG changes all of the ships/the entire game, well, that is just too big of a risk.  Its funny, WG thinks they can make big changes designed to create a massive shake up in the meta but still keep the game the same.  Its wanting to have your cake and eating it too. 

5 minutes ago, NoZoupForYou said:

If it takes two years to get them right, so be it.  And if all DDs dont have depth charges that should...  what’s the point.  As pointed out, it merely turns Subs into ships that are sometimes under water.

I agree, let it take as long as it takes.  I'd even go as far as to say, if it doesn't work reconsider.  Maybe have subs in PvE only.  I'm not sure WG would be willing to go that far. 

My "some DDs will get ASW tools" comment was more about the belief that will be the extent WG will go to make the existing ships fit into the new meta that subs will create.

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I am all for it. It should be interesting to see how the game play is implemented.

In the end this game boils down to AP or HE, and showing broadside or angling properly once detected. Adding a new dimension that has very few is a good thing.

Rather than complaining we should start throwing out ideas for the dev's to consider. My first reaction centers around communication, Subs should not have direct communication or complete map awareness like surface ships have now. They should be isolated like they were …….unless surfaced.

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34 minutes ago, Desertfox51 said:

For me the CV rework was make or break for the game. Because of how unfun it was playing against CVs, I lost almost all interest in playing to the since 0.8.0. I came back during the Russian BB event to try and unlock some high tier ships early. After the first part of the event ended, I just played ranked sprint ( because no CVs). Because of all the large breaks I took from playing my interest overall has just gone down, to the point where subs just don’t excite me that much. I’m glad they are gonna try them, but at them same time I’m just more indifferent to what happens.

This right her is the root of the issue. WG needs to find a way to make subs fun to play and fun to play against. With CVs they hoped that people would just ignore getting attacked by CVs and not care but that obviously didnt happen. So WG is going to have to be creative and come up with so game mechanics that allow Subs and Surface ships to out play each other. 

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