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Shannon_Lindsey

Some thoughts on balancing submarines

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The question is how do we keep the submarines balanced?  I have been working on a list of things that need to be true for Submarines to be balanced within the game. Reasonable additions that I haven't thought of are welcome.

1. Submarines will have destroyer level stealth on the surface that improves with depth, but airplanes will still be able to spot submarines at snorkel depth as though they were still surfaced. Aircraft were absolutely used for this.

2. Submarines will be slower than any surface ship they can reasonably face within their matchmaking spread. This means they can't chase anything, even Langley or US standard battleships. It is the big trade off for their superior stealth.

3. Wargaming must constantly check the numbers for required surface time to maintain balance. Anyone who played the Halloween event knows what I mean.

4. Depth Charges should be a consumable with high or infinite uses with a relatively fast cooldown. Limits on uses should only apply to larger ships that have them.

5. Submarines may also be rammed or hit by torpedoes while on the surface or at snorkel depth. They must go deep to dodge them.

6. Deepwater torpedoes miss surfaced submarines, but hit them at snorkel or the first level of deep dives. A submerged submarine has to go even deeper to dodge these.

7. Submarines can not capture nor can they prevent capture while they are submerged.They may still reset an enemy base capture with a torpedo hit.

8. Submarines are immune to radar while submerged, but hydro will light them up at any depth AND reveal how deep they are.

9. Submarines will have the lowest health pool in the game. This will make them very vulnerable to ramming on the surface or at snorkel depth.

Any other thoughts?

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Until we see what subs will actually be in this game, what WG has been working on, everything is just speculation.  I imagine that they are going to move forward with what they have already done, and then look for feedback once the testing has begun.

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belt fed torpedos? Lol j/k

 

Sounds good man!

 

On a serious note, some submarines laid a mine or two if I recall. Maybe have the ability to lay some mines and do zone denial?

Edited by Capt_Ahab1776

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44 minutes ago, Shannon_Lindsey said:

The question is how do we keep the submarines balanced?  I have been working on a list of things that need to be true for Submarines to be balanced within the game. Reasonable additions that I haven't thought of are welcome.

You've got quite a list of counters and things to hamstring subs.  What do they get in return, nuclear warhead torps?

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My suggestion is simple. Keep them for Operations only, no Random Battles, no CoOp and especially no Ranked or Clan Battles. Having them in dedicated Operations means that a lot of issues that may arise balance or gameplay wise can simply be avoided.

Start with one operation where you play a sub and hunt a target, with AIs trying to sink you. Another where it‘s the other way around, you can pick one of a certain group of DDs (I like to use T7 DDs as example) and prevent an AI controlled target from getting sunk by AI submarines.

The data that gets collected during those two simple operations can then be used to fine tune the sub vs hunter interaction, the sub vs target interaction and to see how much ASW gameplay should be player controlled.

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3 hours ago, Slimeball91 said:

You've got quite a list of counters and things to hamstring subs.  What do they get in return, nuclear warhead torps?

They are going to have the best stealth in the game, and they are going to be immune to traditional gunfire for probably 75% of the time they're spotted at least. Those perks are very strong and require a lot of trade-off.

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2 hours ago, Shannon_Lindsey said:

2. Submarines will be slower than any surface ship they can reasonably face within their matchmaking spread. This means they can't chase anything, even Langley or US standard battleships. It is the big trade off for their superior stealth.

The US fleet submarine starting in the mid 30s were capable of 21 knots on the surface, Type VII U-boats were also capable of 20-21 kts mid-war due to engine and supercharger improvements. 

The XXI can reach 17 submerged running the batteries and motors flat out but your range is very hampered. 

The fact subs are being tested in a separat game mode should keep all of us from drawing too many conclusions fttb
 

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NO ONE knows what balanced really is...even WOW doesn't know until they trial out the initial release with SUBS and equipped ships with depth charges.  Even spotting mechanics on planes as well.  AND sonar on ships.

I can add that I think that Capping should be allowed with SUBS...although I think the speed of the cap should be SLOWER when underwater...than surfaced.   Other games did it - why not this?   

As far as SUBS being in their own mode..I say nonsense....SUBs will not be like CV where they project their firepower through planes which can reach any part of the map...In fact the SUB will probably be lucky to hunt in 20 minutes a third of it unless its equipped with Premium supply of engine SPEED BOOST.....LOL!    AND underwater...premium BATTERY BOOST!  You can see where we are going here eh?  But thats what makes it fun.  

NOW about that Premium Oxygen supply so you can stay underwater longer....

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54 minutes ago, dionkraft said:

As far as SUBS being in their own mode..I say nonsense....

Quote

After the SuperTest submarines will be available for players to try on a special server, before being added to the main game client. Once introduced, the new class will initially be available in a special separate battle type only and this final configuration stage will last for several months.

 

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6 hours ago, Shannon_Lindsey said:

7. Submarines can not capture nor can they prevent capture while they are submerged.They may still reset an enemy base capture with a torpedo hit.

 

WG has previously stated that submarines will be able to capture, when surfaced

see my summary of all that is known, or reasonably deduced from official statements, so far.

 

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6 hours ago, Sledgehammer427 said:

After the SuperTest submarines will be available for players to try on a special server, before being added to the main game client. Once introduced, the new class will initially be available in a special separate battle type only and this final configuration stage will last for several months.

Like everything else WOW says about anything it is always subject to change.  They just put it out there as they know that there is a portion of players who would hate SUBs and they don't want to upset them.  As always...we will see if how it goes as its all speculation and no one knows ultimately until time comes WOW actually decides.. We will see....

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11 hours ago, Shannon_Lindsey said:

The question is how do we keep the submarines balanced?  I have been working on a list of things that need to be true for Submarines to be balanced within the game. Reasonable additions that I haven't thought of are welcome.

1. Submarines will have destroyer level stealth on the surface that improves with depth, but airplanes will still be able to spot submarines at snorkel depth as though they were still surfaced. Aircraft were absolutely used for this.

2. Submarines will be slower than any surface ship they can reasonably face within their matchmaking spread. This means they can't chase anything, even Langley or US standard battleships. It is the big trade off for their superior stealth.

3. Wargaming must constantly check the numbers for required surface time to maintain balance. Anyone who played the Halloween event knows what I mean.

4. Depth Charges should be a consumable with high or infinite uses with a relatively fast cooldown. Limits on uses should only apply to larger ships that have them.

5. Submarines may also be rammed or hit by torpedoes while on the surface or at snorkel depth. They must go deep to dodge them.

6. Deepwater torpedoes miss surfaced submarines, but hit them at snorkel or the first level of deep dives. A submerged submarine has to go even deeper to dodge these.

7. Submarines can not capture nor can they prevent capture while they are submerged.They may still reset an enemy base capture with a torpedo hit.

8. Submarines are immune to radar while submerged, but hydro will light them up at any depth AND reveal how deep they are.

9. Submarines will have the lowest health pool in the game. This will make them very vulnerable to ramming on the surface or at snorkel depth.

Any other thoughts?

Those are some good thoughts. I've had some additional ones:

1. Surface detection for submarines should be DD-range or lower, but I think air detection for submarines should be higher, and that they should be spottable by catapult aircraft. This is less historical and more a balance thing.

2. Surface detection by submarines when surfaced should be a little worse than standard due to the fact that they themselves are stealthier and that observation from the conning tower of a submarine is closer to the water surface level than from the observation tower of any surface vessel. 

3. Surface detection by submarines when at periscope depth should be much lower, and ideally directional based on aim direction.

4. Surfaced submarines should have historical AA or deck gun firing options (although I doubt this will be of substantial help to anyone). 

5. Diving should be a consumable with a realistic time of effect and cooldown. A balancing mechanic could be to have its cooldown be its submerged time. This would be ahistorically low due to the short game time (~2-3 minutes?), but could be a good game mechanic. Similar to DCP, it would have an active time of a few seconds to reach the desired depth and then a cooldown timer of the time the sub can remain submerged. I think it would be cool if the surfacing mechanic would require another consumable activation and give the sub commander the  option of taking a (pretty slow) damage-over-time penalty to stay submerged. You might get some cool Das Boot-esque tension moments of sub hunting then that could be a lot of fun.

6. Hydro needs to be added as a consumable option to more ships, but in an extra slot, not replacing the existing consumables. I don't think it'd be fair to render ships that historically had sonar or hydro completely unable to detect submarines except when surfaced because they spec'd for general utility, AA, or anti-surface consumables. This wouldn't apply if subs stayed in their own game mode, though.

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