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kalman81

Gun caliber/Armor pen spreadsheet

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hey guys, is there anywhere I can find a spreadsheet or sorts where it describes the caliber and what armor it can bounce or pen? 

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In regards to bounces, you are likely refering to the overmatching. Overmatching is when the shell‘s caliber ensures that up to a certain armor thickness the shell will not ricochet. The factor for this calculation is 14.3. For example New Mexico vs Warspite vs West Virginia 1941:

New Mex: 356mm / 14.3 = 24.9mm

Warspite: 381mm / 14.3 = 26.6mm

W.Virginia: 406mm / 14.3 = 28.4mm

So if all three shoot at a bow-on Edinburgh, they will all overmatch the armor. If they all fire at a bow-on Mogami, only Warspite and W.Virginia will overmatch the armor. Against a Baltimore only W.Virginia will overmatch. If they fire at a bow-on North Carolina the bow will bounce all the shells.

For some further info the link to the wiki: https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Gunnery_%26_Armor_Penetration#Armor-Piercing

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2 minutes ago, SireneRacker said:

In regards to bounces, you are likely refering to the overmatching. Overmatching is when the shell‘s caliber ensures that up to a certain armor thickness the shell will not ricochet. The factor for this calculation is 14.3. For example New Mexico vs Warspite vs West Virginia 1941:

New Mex: 356mm / 14.3 = 24.9mm

Warspite: 381mm / 14.3 = 26.6mm

W.Virginia: 406mm / 14.3 = 28.4mm

So if all three shoot at a bow-on Edinburgh, they will all overmatch the armor. If they all fire at a bow-on Mogami, only Warspite and W.Virginia will overmatch the armor. Against a Baltimore only W.Virginia will overmatch. If they fire at a bow-on North Carolina the bow will bounce all the shells.

For some further info the link to the wiki: https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Gunnery_%26_Armor_Penetration#Armor-Piercing

awesome thanks

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There is no direct correlation between shell caliber and their penetration. A 410mm Type 88 shell from Mutsu will pen less than a 410mm Type 91 from Nagato, and Republique's 431mm AP will pen more than Yamato's 460mm at close range, but less at long range. There simply isn't a simple correlation.

There is however a correlation between shell caliber and overmatch - IE, the amount of armor a shell will ignore, regardless of angle of impact. The overmatch coefficient is 14.3, s a 460mm shell will overmatch 32mm, a 457mm one will not.

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41 minutes ago, Lert said:

There is no direct correlation between shell caliber and their penetration. A 410mm Type 88 shell from Mutsu will pen less than a 410mm Type 91 from Nagato, and Republique's 431mm AP will pen more than Yamato's 460mm at close range, but less at long range. There simply isn't a simple correlation.

French hardened baguettes punch more steel than the biggest guns ever put on a ships and makes so much sense :))

Also can't wait for a Republique with MBRB and no drawbacks as a reward for regrinding, you know it will eventually happen

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18 minutes ago, XurMP said:

French hardened baguettes punch more steel than the biggest guns ever put on a ships and makes so much sense :))

Yes it does. Because size isn't the only thing that matters. Shell velocity and shell manufacture does as well. Manufacture is represented by krupp, and shell velocity is a known factor. Or are you arguing that a .50 bmg at muzzle velocity is less dangerous than a thrown brick? After all, the brick is bigger and heavier. That's also why the 431mm shells lose pen more quickly over distance, they're lighter and don't maintain as much energy over flight time.

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1 minute ago, Lert said:

Yes it does. Because size isn't the only thing that matters. Shell velocity and shell manufacture does as well. Manufacture is represented by krupp, and shell velocity is a known factor. Or are you arguing that a .50 bmg at muzzle velocity is less dangerous than a thrown brick? After all, the brick is bigger and heavier.

It was just a joke, that's the reason why Stalingrad or Kron get so much pen, for the sheer inertia the shells have when they hit the target but even so Republique does not have THAT high of a shell speed at 840 compared to Yamato's 780 but yeah I understand what you mean. 

Also things like Alsace vs Siegfried AP actually make a lot of sense as both keep almost the same speed over distance and the initial speed is almost identical (830 vs 820) while being same caliber guns and having quite similar shell weights.

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1 minute ago, XurMP said:

It was just a joke, that's the reason why Stalingrad or Kron get so much pen, for the sheer inertia the shells have when they hit the target but even so Republique does not have THAT high of a shell speed at 840 compared to Yamato's 780 but yeah I understand what you mean.

Well, it's also manufacture, drag coefficient, etc. I don't have those numbers on my at the moment. And I'm only 95% sure Republique has more pen at short range. Part of me wonders if it's not the other way around, Republique having more pen at long range. It was one of those two, at least.

2 minutes ago, XurMP said:

Also things like Alsace vs Siegfried AP actually make a lot of sense as both keep almost the same speed over distance and the initial speed is almost identical (830 vs 820) while being same caliber guns and having quite similar shell weights.

That's where Krupp starts mattering a lot more, which represents shell hardness.

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1 minute ago, Lert said:

Well, it's also manufacture, drag coefficient, etc. I don't have those numbers on my at the moment. And I'm only 95% sure Republique has more pen at short range. Part of me wonders if it's not the other way around, Republique having more pen at long range. It was one of those two, at least.

Yeah Republique have the best pen until around 13ish kilometers where the king is Yamato again but it's kind of interesting seeing how at point blank range Repu can reach almost a full meter of pen when Yamato cannot even reach 910mm (source: https://wowsft.com/arty?lang=en)

Also maybe you can explain this because I really can figure what kind of WG magic made just a tiny detail work the way it does:

Gearing with much lighter and slower shells pen literally 67% more than Z-52 AP at very close ranges and doesn't go lower until over 7km distance. German 128mm (at least in tanks) was extremely effective weapon although way overkill for the task, and for the little research I did a while back the Jagdtiger and Maus mounted a slightly modified naval gun so it would be almost the same as the ones Z-52 mount, I'm missing something or is it just WG's anti-axis bias again?

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1 minute ago, XurMP said:

Gearing with much lighter and slower shells pen literally 67% more than Z-52 AP at very close ranges and doesn't go lower until over 7km distance. German 128mm (at least in tanks) was extremely effective weapon although way overkill for the task, and for the little research I did a while back the Jagdtiger and Maus mounted a slightly modified naval gun so it would be almost the same as the ones Z-52 mount, I'm missing something or is it just WG's anti-axis bias again?

Krupp. Z-52's shells may be heavier and faster, but if they're not as hard they won't pen as much. Like, would you rather be hit by two pounds of feathers at 40 mph or a one pound brick? Hardness matters. The weight and speed is reflected in their higher damage though, Z-52's AP does a lot more damage than Gearing's. Like ... 3000 vs 2100. It's quite a significant difference.

I wouldn't know if the numbers match up or if there's any bias here, but that's just my theory.

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14 minutes ago, Lert said:

Well, it's also manufacture, drag coefficient, etc. I don't have those numbers on my at the moment. And I'm only 95% sure Republique has more pen at short range. Part of me wonders if it's not the other way around, Republique having more pen at long range. It was one of those two, at least.

That's where Krupp starts mattering a lot more, which represents shell hardness.

Lert, in my readings in various places there is a lot of information on Overmatch... one of the things I noticed is they say there is a LOT of places where WG rounds up their measurements however Overmatch is not one of them. Am I correct that this means that when a person takes a 14" gun caliber that translates to 355.6mm- this is the number we need to divide by 14.3? Not 356?  

And the number we end up with is the number we end up with- and it isn't rounded up to the nearest value? IF it ends up being 26.99 that isn't rounded up to 27?

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2 minutes ago, _ENO_ said:

Lert, in my readings in various places there is a lot of information on Overmatch... one of the things I noticed is they say there is a LOT of places where WG rounds up their measurements however Overmatch is not one of them. Am I correct that this means that when a person takes a 14" gun caliber that translates to 355.6mm- this is the number we need to divide by 14.3? Not 356? 

I don't know actually. Never looked into it that much in depth. I'd think they'd take the nearest mm when calculating overmatch, but I can't be 100% sure.

2 minutes ago, _ENO_ said:

And the number we end up with is the number we end up with- and it isn't rounded up to the nearest value? IF it ends up being 26.99 that isn't rounded up to 27?

Correct. You need to beat the resulting number in order to pen it, so even if you come to 26.99 or even exactly 27, you still won't damage 27mm plating.

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13 minutes ago, Lert said:

Krupp. Z-52's shells may be heavier and faster, but if they're not as hard they won't pen as much. Like, would you rather be hit by two pounds of feathers at 40 mph or a one pound brick? Hardness matters. The weight and speed is reflected in their higher damage though, Z-52's AP does a lot more damage than Gearing's. Like ... 3000 vs 2100. It's quite a significant difference.

I wouldn't know if the numbers match up or if there's any bias here, but that's just my theory.

Holy ship Z-52 ammo is made out of rubber, even Tier 2 sampson have almost as much krupp and Gearing almost double the krupp Z-52 shells have...

Edited by XurMP
typo

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4 minutes ago, XurMP said:

Holy ship Z-52 is made out of rubber, even Tier 2 sampson have almost as much krupp and Gearing almost double the krupp Z-52 shells have...

Well, they're still hard enough to go through DDs and battleship superstructures.

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2 minutes ago, Lert said:

Well, they're still hard enough to go through DDs and battleship superstructures.

Wonder if it was that way in real life or they just did it so the "AP DD" had inferior AP to literally everyone (only Daring have lower pen but with Mino pen angles) and totally worthless now with the absolutely wonderful AP pen and damage of the French DDs :fish_glass:

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Just now, XurMP said:

Wonder if it was that way in real life

Don't know.

Just now, XurMP said:

 they just did it so the "AP DD" had inferior AP to literally everyone

Except for the highest damage for the caliber. And still enough pen to seriously rip through superstructures. Honestly, the low krupp isn't that much of an issue IMO.

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Just now, Lert said:

Except for the highest damage for the caliber. And still enough pen to seriously rip through superstructures. Honestly, the low krupp isn't that much of an issue IMO.

For someone that very rarely use HE with Z-52 I can tell you that her AP is not that bad but it lacks quite a lot tbh. German guns in general are supposed to give up HE damage to gain 1/4 pen and all German DDs give up the damage but don't gain the pen. The AP can overpen DDs if they are almost flat broadside to you but can also do 3/4k salvos if they angle very slightly and it's just glorious. The problem is when anything angles a bit too much your AP doesnt get more than shatters even on DDs or CLs and BBs just have to angle very slightly to make your AP bounce on the upper belt. Shooting at the super late game won't get you almost any damage at all as the little HP remaining there will be quickly gone and upper belts are no pen zone for her unless is a very flat broadside relatively close. 

IMHO if the german DDs get the 1/4 HE pen like they should have and the magnetic torps to make up for the pathetic damage (yes it's a gimmick but could be interesting and a way to make German DDs appealing again). Maybe for balance the magnetic torps wouldn't track DDs, just CLs and up in armor and for a certain time (maybe only 500 meters) after that they will continue in a straight line until they run out of range. The "quick" reload thing makes no sense when the torps don't even tickle BBs (if you land 8/8 you CANNOT kill any single T10 or even T8 BB) and look at this little piece of info:

T-22 torpedos (T5):     Damage 13.700, Speed 62 kts, Detectability 1.3km, Reaction time 8.1 seconds, Flooding change 227%, Reload time 68 seconds

 Z-52 torpedos (T10): Damage 14.400, Speed 69 kts, Detectability 1.4km, Reaction time 7.8 seconds, Flooding chance 240%, Reload time 90 seconds

Like seriously wth, Z-52's improved torps almost look like alternative torp option for her own little sister at Tier 5... It's not that T-22 torps are OP by any means, it's that german torps increase with the Tiers in horrible ways.

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1 minute ago, XurMP said:

T-22 torpedos (T5):     Damage 13.700, Speed 62 kts, Detectability 1.3km, Reaction time 8.1 seconds, Flooding change 227%, Reload time 68 seconds

 Z-52 torpedos (T10): Damage 14.400, Speed 69 kts, Detectability 1.4km, Reaction time 7.8 seconds, Flooding chance 240%, Reload time 90 seconds

Like seriously wth, Z-52's improved torps almost look like alternative torp option for her own little sister at Tier 5... It's not that T-22 torps are OP by any means, it's that german torps increase with the Tiers in horrible ways.

Increased range. But you're forgetting the best part of these torpedoes: Fast reload. Other torpedoes at tier you have to wait like two minutes to get a new set to throw. With proper skills your Z-52 will have a new set in a minute.

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5 hours ago, XurMP said:

T-22 torpedos (T5):     Damage 13.700, Speed 62 kts, Detectability 1.3km, Reaction time 8.1 seconds, Flooding change 227%, Reload time 68 seconds

 Z-52 torpedos (T10): Damage 14.400, Speed 69 kts, Detectability 1.4km, Reaction time 7.8 seconds, Flooding chance 240%, Reload time 90 seconds

Like seriously wth, Z-52's improved torps almost look like alternative torp option for her own little sister at Tier 5... It's not that T-22 torps are OP by any means, it's that german torps increase with the Tiers in horrible ways. 

Thats true for most DDs. The power difference between the lower tiers and upper tiers is minimal. Check the Ognevoi vs the Groz:

Gnevny:

  • 2x2 130mm guns. 12 RPM, with a max dispersion of 104m. The only downside is the turret turn rate of 18 seconds for 180 degrees and fire out to 12km.
  • HE does 1900 damage, has 870m/s velocity, pens 21mm of armor and has 8% fire chance.
  • AP does 2500 damage, 870m/s velocity and pens 22mm of armor, 0.01 second fuse time.

Groz:

  • 3x2 130mm guns. 14 RPM, max dispersion of 107m, 10 second 180 turret turn rate and fire out to 12.3km.
  • HE does 1800 damage, 950m/s velocity, pens 21mm of armor and has 8% fire chance/
  • AP does 2600 damage, 950m/s velocity, pens 22mm of armor. 0.01 second fuse time.

Edit: You only get 2 more guns and easier to aim shells at a distance. I am strictly speaking damage output and not survivability or detection which have larger changes between tiers.

 

edit 2: corrected ship name, Ognevoy -> Gnevny

Edited by 10T0nHammer

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Just now, Lert said:

Increased range. But you're forgetting the best part of these torpedoes: Fast reload. Other torpedoes at tier you have to wait like two minutes to get a new set to throw. With proper skills your Z-52 will have a new set in a minute.

Yeah is true, Haru torp reload is insanely low and such is any IJN or Russian T10 torp reload with others not being that much better. But those other torps usually do damage and make actual impact on what they hit, Z-52 torps hit a completely unsaturated (full health) DD and rarely do over 10k damage (still don't understand how that's even possible) while all the other DDs at the Tiers compared to their Tier 5 little sisters increase the damage by quite a lot, not just 700 points of damage or in another words a insanely low 5%. Also things like Benham one Tier lower have the same range, just 2 knots slower but gain even more reload speed (even taking Z-52 legendary and investing fully into torp reload that btw makes the concealment go to 6.5) and having literally double the number of torps. Sure Z have the better guns and the hydro but her torps are literally Tier 5 torps with 30 seconds slower reload just to gain 3 kilometers range. Don't get me wrong, Yukikaze is already painful enough with 8 km and really hope that we never get a hybrid/torp boat at high tiers with 7 km torpedos but going from T5 to T10 you would hope to gain more than a little range and a mere 5% to the damage. Maybe it's just me but the magnetic torps (properly balanced) wouldn't hurt at all high Tier German DDs as they are getting powercrep like their bigger sisters but we still don't have anything even remotely close to oxygen torpedos for IJN or any way to make obvious that they were the only WW2 DDs IRL that could reload torpedos without having to go port (TRB was a nice attempt but not many get it and usually at the exchange of the smoke screens).

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German DD's have lousy AP because they are actually base-fused HE shells, which are thin walled and not hardened and therefore tend to splatter when they actually impact armor. I would definitely say it's a serious weakness given how many BB's have incremental armor which can tank their AP, but won't tank the AP from the lines with better AP

12 minutes ago, Lert said:

Increased range. But you're forgetting the best part of these torpedoes: Fast reload. Other torpedoes at tier you have to wait like two minutes to get a new set to throw. With proper skills your Z-52 will have a new set in a minute.

I mean, it only takes around 10% longer for Gearing/Fletcher to throw another set of Mark 16's out. It's an advantage, but hardly unique.

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