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DevilD0g

Carrier CV torps need changing and upgrading

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Due to the nerfing of carriers and the low damage rate of them and how it takes 10 -12 torps to sink a BB with repair function.  In the past they had 4-6 on tier 4 before the rework.  Now  1 torpedo....Total knee jerk reaction and not fun to play  and needs review.

Doubling torps to 2 per run on Tier 4 wont make a big difference as there is no guarantee both will hit with some inexperienced players and still  your not getting 4 on that level as a minimum..   2 torps on tier 4 is ok  and 3 on tier 6.

Upgrading  torp numbers is necessary

Tier 4   .....  2  torps not  1 per drop

Tier 6   .....  3  torps not  2 per drop

Tier 8   .....  4  torps remain standard as is

The damage that is made by tier 4  carriers is embarrassingly low.  Carriers were in some peoples views OP but now they are waaaaaay underpowered compared to the damage destroyers can do that are even with this upgrade still more overpowered than carriers and for those that drive Destroyers, you wont admit it but you know its true.

NOTE WELL im not talking about high tier carriers in this proposal so dont even bring that to the conversation

Edited by DevilD0g
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I agree with you that aerial torps have probably been nerfed way too much. I routinely land four to six to the broadside of a large ship, only to find I've done less damage than a rocket salvo can do. About the only kills I get with torps is if I manage to hit a low-health DD with one. Not to mention that they sometimes act really weird in that sometimes you can miss a ship that sitting still, even if the aiming pattern is directly on it.

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Player should be able to select the number of planes on the final run

 

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2 hours ago, DevilD0g said:

they are waaaaaay underpowered compared to the damage destroyers can do that are even with this upgrade still more overpowered than carriers and for those that drive Destroyers, you wont admit it but you know its true.

Except that CVs outdamage DDs at every tier they have:

CV numbers:

Spoiler

 

CV 4 Hermes 24060
    Hosho 21999
    Langley 18580
  4 Total Average: 21546
  6 Ryujo 36802
    Furious 35530
    Ranger 29840
  6 Total Average: 34057
  8 Enterprise 53683
    Saipan 51837
    Graf Zeppelin 48044
    Shokaku 47843
    Kaga 48669
    Implacable 46280
    Lexington 46979
  8 Total Average: 49048
  10 Audacious 77570
    Hakuryu 76819
    Midway 69197
  10 Total Average: 74529

 

 

DD numbers:

Spoiler
DD 4 Shenyang 24843
    Clemson 21523
    V-170 20092
    Wakeful 19725
    Isokaze 19733
    Izyaslav 18559
  4 Total Average: 20746
  6 T-61 30208
    Shinonome 30488
    Icarus 21115
    Hatsuharu 23499
    Guepard 25001
    Monaghan 22910
    Fushun 23050
    Ernst Gaede 19911
    Gallant 19668
    Gnevny 21547
    Aigle 24140
    Fubuki 20877
    Farragut 16351
    Anshan 22606
  6 Total Average: 22863
  8 Le Terrible 40709
    Le Fantasque 35665
    Asashio B 58612
    Cossack 36908
    Asashio 54202
    Akizuki 39388
    AL Yukikaze 39311
    Kidd 26769
    Lightning 32197
    Ognevoi 32241
    HSF Harekaze 32711
    Loyang 27111
    Benson 24217
    Z-23 26947
    Kagero 29941
    Kiev 36221
    Hsienyang 28614
  8 Total Average: 35388
  10 Daring 57383
    Khabarovsk 64510
    Grozovoi 53774
    Harugumo 58681
    Yueyang 50018
    Z-52 38341
    Shimakaze 47563
    Gearing 40088
  10 Total Average: 51295

All numbers are one month aggregate between 06/29-08/30 using maple syrup's site. There is a 20k damage discrepancy between the "underpowered" CVs and DDs. Even DDs considered OP still do less damage than any underpowered CV.

 

Edit:

 

Edited by 10T0nHammer
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3 hours ago, DevilD0g said:

Due to the nerfing of carriers and the low damage rate of them and how it takes 10 -12 torps to sink a BB with repair function.  In the past they had 4-6 on tier 4 before the rework.  Now  1 torpedo....Total knee jerk reaction and not fun to play  and needs review.

Doubling torps to 2 per run on Tier 4 wont make a big difference as there is no guarantee both will hit with some inexperienced players and still  your not getting 4 on that level as a minimum..   2 torps on tier 4 is ok  and 3 on tier 6.

Upgrading  torp numbers is necessary

Tier 4   .....  2  torps not  1 per drop

Tier 6   .....  3  torps not  2 per drop

Tier 8   .....  4  torps remain standard as is

The damage that is made by tier 4  carriers is embarrassingly low.  Carriers were in some peoples views OP but now they are waaaaaay underpowered compared to the damage destroyers can do that are even with this upgrade still more overpowered than carriers and for those that drive Destroyers, you wont admit it but you know its true.

OK,

Let's assume we can sink BBs with 4 torpedoes. What's going to happen when you become a skilled, you'll destroy 2 to 3 BBs every match, add a couple of DDs, one cruiser. No fun for the other players, agreed? 

Now, what has to be done is, nerf some ships AA and buff others, otherwise CV's will end up by focusing on low AA ships and players will abandon low AA ships... Fix Autopilot so CV can move following the path decided by the player. Fix AA and islands, still behind islands planes don't see the AA ship but see AA bursts all around. Make AA a bit more manual, not totally automatic...

Balance should be achieved then.

CV players have to accept the role of CV's, 1/ Spot 2/ To harass full health ships, DDs use smoke, BBs change of course, etc 3/ Terminate low health ships.

That's not "realistic" but if the game was realistic, Tier X 1945-46 ships and planes should completely dominate the game... At this time, the battleship was already part of the past.

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Was hit by 9 torps and no idea how many bombs in my W Virginia last week.   Did it sink me?  No.  Did it cause me to be sunk.  Absolutely.

You see, everyone misses the main problem with CVs.  Its not their strike damage, which WG nerfed into the ground.  Its their spotting and their ability to do 3 torp drops from a single squadron within a few seconds, then send another wave out immediately.  The wave after wave after wave issue.

My W Virginia was barely scratched by the torps, a little more damage from the bombs, but they still needed to be dodged due to the potential for flooding.  So I used the old' WASD hack, as most people do.  This resulted in my broadside being exposed and taking Cits from a BB not far away.  Sunk.

This scenario would've been much different had I only had to dodge 1 wave of torps, then had to wait 60 seconds before another CV squadron was on top of me.  As it was, there was a new 3 strike CV attack on me every 30 seconds.     THIS is why I have hated the CV rework since its release.

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8 hours ago, 10T0nHammer said:

Except that CVs outdamage DDs at every tier they have:

CV numbers:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

CV 4 Hermes 24060
    Hosho 21999
    Langley 18580
  4 Total Average: 21546
  6 Ryujo 36802
    Furious 35530
    Ranger 29840
  6 Total Average: 34057
  8 Enterprise 53683
    Saipan 51837
    Graf Zeppelin 48044
    Shokaku 47843
    Kaga 48669
    Implacable 46280
    Lexington 46979
  8 Total Average: 49048
  10 Audacious 77570
    Hakuryu 76819
    Midway 69197
  10 Total Average: 74529

 

 

DD numbers:

  Reveal hidden contents
DD 4 Shenyang 24843
    Clemson 21523
    V-170 20092
    Wakeful 19725
    Isokaze 19733
    Izyaslav 18559
  4 Total Average: 20746
  6 T-61 30208
    Shinonome 30488
    Icarus 21115
    Hatsuharu 23499
    Guepard 25001
    Monaghan 22910
    Fushun 23050
    Ernst Gaede 19911
    Gallant 19668
    Gnevny 21547
    Aigle 24140
    Fubuki 20877
    Farragut 16351
    Anshan 22606
  6 Total Average: 22863
  8 Le Terrible 40709
    Le Fantasque 35665
    Asashio B 58612
    Cossack 36908
    Asashio 54202
    Akizuki 39388
    AL Yukikaze 39311
    Kidd 26769
    Lightning 32197
    Ognevoi 32241
    HSF Harekaze 32711
    Loyang 27111
    Benson 24217
    Z-23 26947
    Kagero 29941
    Kiev 36221
    Hsienyang 28614
  8 Total Average: 35388
  10 Daring 57383
    Khabarovsk 64510
    Grozovoi 53774
    Harugumo 58681
    Yueyang 50018
    Z-52 38341
    Shimakaze 47563
    Gearing 40088
  10 Total Average: 51295

All numbers are one month aggregate between 06/29-08/30 using maple syrup's site. There is a 20k damage discrepancy between the "underpowered" CVs and DDs. Even DDs considered OP still do less damage than any underpowered CV.

 

Edit:

 

Apples to oranges, perhaps even as far as apples to dogs.

If there are 6 DD players in a match, 1 or 2 will die within 5 minutes and most likely all but 1 will be sunk by the 10 minute mark. CV's typically survive most of, if not the entire match, therefore their damage is over 20 minutes whereas a DD's damage is over a significantly less amount of time. Impossible to do comparison between 2 ships that are so completely different.

There are far too many stats that apply to wows that are secret, like damage per minute, that are critical in understanding how the game is balanced. Too bad WG keeps their cards so close to their chest.

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1 minute ago, hipcanuck said:

Apples to oranges, perhaps even as far as apples to dogs.

If there are 6 DD players in a match, 1 or 2 will die within 5 minutes and most likely all but 1 will be sunk by the 10 minute mark. CV's typically survive most of, if not the entire match, therefore their damage is over 20 minutes whereas a DD's damage is over a significantly less amount of time. Impossible to do comparison between 2 ships that are so completely different.

There are far too many stats that apply to wows that are secret, like damage per minute, that are critical in understanding how the game is balanced. Too bad WG keeps their cards so close to their chest.

I'm not the one who compared CVs to DDs in terms of damage. OP did. Just showing the OP how wrong they are.

Edited by 10T0nHammer
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   Was CVing this weekend for the Naval Battles competition and a BB was griefing me for focusing him. I told him the only way I could hurt anybody as a DOT ship was to keep coming back to reset the floods and fires. Yeah I agree, it sucks to be focused but it's CV's at this given moment, what can you do. Honestly, CV's just aren't as much fun to play as surface ships any more imho.

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13 hours ago, Snargfargle said:

I agree with you that aerial torps have probably been nerfed way too much. I routinely land four to six to the broadside of a large ship, only to find I've done less damage than a rocket salvo can do. About the only kills I get with torps is if I manage to hit a low-health DD with one. Not to mention that they sometimes act really weird in that sometimes you can miss a ship that sitting still, even if the aiming pattern is directly on it.

I agree that torp damage is anemic but if it is too high the crying will reach a state we have not seen before. 

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Just now, Shinzon1 said:

I agree that torp damage is anemic but if it is too high the crying will reach a state we have not seen before. 

I've started playing my CV differently. Instead of trying for primary strikes, I'm now looking around for low-health targets that are out of the range of my teammates. At least the torpedoes can take off a couple thousands hitpoints, which is oftentimes just enough to secure a kill.

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I play CV a lot.   Torps are fine.  They are easy to land on BBs.  And a CV captain can come back again, and again, and again.  Not to mention run multiple strikes with one squadron if the AA is weak.  As others have noted, if they force the BB captain to dodge, it can leave them open to other threats.  

 

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14 hours ago, DevilD0g said:

Due to the nerfing of carriers and the low damage rate of them and how it takes 10 -12 torps to sink a BB with repair function.  In the past they had 4-6 on tier 4 before the rework.  Now  1 torpedo....Total knee jerk reaction and not fun to play  and needs review.

Doubling torps to 2 per run on Tier 4 wont make a big difference as there is no guarantee both will hit with some inexperienced players and still  your not getting 4 on that level as a minimum..   2 torps on tier 4 is ok  and 3 on tier 6.

Upgrading  torp numbers is necessary

Tier 4   .....  2  torps not  1 per drop

Tier 6   .....  3  torps not  2 per drop

Tier 8   .....  4  torps remain standard as is

The damage that is made by tier 4  carriers is embarrassingly low.  Carriers were in some peoples views OP but now they are waaaaaay underpowered compared to the damage destroyers can do that are even with this upgrade still more overpowered than carriers and for those that drive Destroyers, you wont admit it but you know its true.

Yeah upgrade the torps.

Then limit flight range to 20km so cvs can get their hull in the fight.

As long as cvs sit in the back safely. No. Damage should be anemic.

 

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17 hours ago, 10T0nHammer said:

Except that CVs outdamage DDs at every tier they have:

CV numbers:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

CV 4 Hermes 24060
    Hosho 21999
    Langley 18580
  4 Total Average: 21546
  6 Ryujo 36802
    Furious 35530
    Ranger 29840
  6 Total Average: 34057
  8 Enterprise 53683
    Saipan 51837
    Graf Zeppelin 48044
    Shokaku 47843
    Kaga 48669
    Implacable 46280
    Lexington 46979
  8 Total Average: 49048
  10 Audacious 77570
    Hakuryu 76819
    Midway 69197
  10 Total Average: 74529

 

 

DD numbers:

  Reveal hidden contents
DD 4 Shenyang 24843
    Clemson 21523
    V-170 20092
    Wakeful 19725
    Isokaze 19733
    Izyaslav 18559
  4 Total Average: 20746
  6 T-61 30208
    Shinonome 30488
    Icarus 21115
    Hatsuharu 23499
    Guepard 25001
    Monaghan 22910
    Fushun 23050
    Ernst Gaede 19911
    Gallant 19668
    Gnevny 21547
    Aigle 24140
    Fubuki 20877
    Farragut 16351
    Anshan 22606
  6 Total Average: 22863
  8 Le Terrible 40709
    Le Fantasque 35665
    Asashio B 58612
    Cossack 36908
    Asashio 54202
    Akizuki 39388
    AL Yukikaze 39311
    Kidd 26769
    Lightning 32197
    Ognevoi 32241
    HSF Harekaze 32711
    Loyang 27111
    Benson 24217
    Z-23 26947
    Kagero 29941
    Kiev 36221
    Hsienyang 28614
  8 Total Average: 35388
  10 Daring 57383
    Khabarovsk 64510
    Grozovoi 53774
    Harugumo 58681
    Yueyang 50018
    Z-52 38341
    Shimakaze 47563
    Gearing 40088
  10 Total Average: 51295

All numbers are one month aggregate between 06/29-08/30 using maple syrup's site. There is a 20k damage discrepancy between the "underpowered" CVs and DDs. Even DDs considered OP still do less damage than any underpowered CV.

 

Edit:

 

As an example as i used tier 4 and 6 tier,  a clemson on tier4 can unload 16  torps per unit till reload to a plane group  3 if their lucky, generally 2. on their target.   and also a carrier needs multiple runs on a dd to sink it in defence and not always guarranteed a hit where as a DD attaacking a carrier can use guns reloading 5 or 6 seconds depending on captain skills  and torps  so  how is that overpowered.

The main reason why cv survive battles mainly is that they are a stand off weapons platform  and generally are running away from the front line unless hunted down by destroyers or other ships. Not because thye have some magical weopons system that can defend themselves apart from defensive fighter and some secondary guns while the player is off flying and away

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5 hours ago, Velled said:

Yeah upgrade the torps.

Then limit flight range to 20km so cvs can get their hull in the fight.

As long as cvs sit in the back safely. No. Damage should be anemic.

 

get their hull into the fight ?  what are they going to do sink ships by ramming them  with their secondaries, .. really  ????

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If you look at damage numbers, torpedoes come out pretty underwhelming for their costs on a lot of ships. Like take Lexington, where you can have two nearly identical 9-plane squadrons of helldivers with either HEDB or Torpedoes. Torpedoes deal slightly more HP damage(6467 vs 6072) at the cost of having fewer DoT zones, being about a quarter of the chance of actually inflicting those DoT(if we ignore zones, each HE bomb gains about 1500-4000 damage in fire on average depending on target, while the torp only gets about half that. And there are 2 bombs from each bomber. So the HEDB has about four times the DoT potential.

Oh, and torpedoes have less ability to handle evasive ships, and they can't slingshot as well as dive bombers can, and they can be mitigated from 20-40% by typical battleships, more for some.

Even IJN with their very good torpedoes are at best kind of reasonable options next to their APDB and rocket planes. They have more potential punch if they can use more attacks, which is kind of sketchy in the AA environment. They're better than their APDB versus cruisers, at least.

 

I would really call for partially reverting the damage nerf between PTS and 0.8.0 to torpedo damage(around 30-50% more than now) and fully reverting the flooding nerf. 

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Aerial torpedoes are smaller than ship torpedoes.  Ergo, the damage is smaller, too.

The complaints never end.  The CV rework has been a disappointment for many people, including myself.

The underlying problem is that WOWs downgraded CV's from commanding multiple air-groups at the same time to becoming a mobile airbase and turning the Carrier Captain into a glorified squadron leader. 

Aircraft Carriers had capabilities that are no longer a feature of what WOWs has nerfed the CV's into for the sake of WOWs' company objectives. 

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2 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Aerial torpedoes are smaller than ship torpedoes.  Ergo, the damage is smaller, too.

The complaints never end.  The CV rework has been a disappointment for many people, including myself.

The underlying problem is that WOWs downgraded CV's from commanding multiple air-groups at the same time to becoming a mobile airbase and turning the Carrier Captain into a glorified squadron leader. 

Aircraft Carriers had capabilities that are no longer a feature of what WOWs has nerfed the CV's into for the sake of WOWs' company objectives. 

And the damage absolutely should be smaller.  CV's have an easier time delivering torpedoes to a target than DD's do by and large.  That being said,  they ought to do more then tickle the target lightly.  Its a bit on the frustrating side to sink a full squadron of torpedoes into a ship only for them to go "Teehee!" and be slightly bothered.

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@Wolfswetpaws The CV rework is not a WG objective. It is due to the whining of a minority who didn't want to put in the effort to learn to CV well and the targets of those who learned to CV well who didn't want to bother to form a task force for mutual AA support.

So now we have this garbage that stinks more with every update. The coming 8.7 update just heaps more rancid refuse on the pile.

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10 hours ago, Salttyy said:

A problem is CVs planes are treated like ammo.  I never run out. 

Incorrect.  If they were treated the same, then indiscriminate firing would result in an end of match where all but one of your barrels are empty and the one that's not empty would take 60 seconds to re-load.  

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11 hours ago, Soshi_Sone said:

 As others have noted, if they force the BB captain to dodge, it can leave them open to other threats.  

Yes this really does have to be considered. I know it doesn't demonstrate performance in the xp tally though drops from multiple angles can screw a BB enormously as they try to turn to evade. BB drivers should also consider though that eating a few little aerial torps and a now small flood is better damage mitigation than copping a full salvo to the broadside.

Nicely said Soshi! 

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1 hour ago, Sumseaman said:

Yes this really does have to be considered. I know it doesn't demonstrate performance in the xp tally though drops from multiple angles can screw a BB enormously as they try to turn to evade. BB drivers should also consider though that eating a few little aerial torps and a now small flood is better damage mitigation than copping a full salvo to the broadside.

Nicely said Soshi! 

Torpedo bombers are far less painful for sure. But 90% of the BB's I torp will freak out, stop bow tanking, start looking at the sky, launch their spotter plane for defense (LOL), turn broadside, and get deleted in no time flat. It works almost every time. Only the smart BB's eat the torps and keep bow tanking.

I always try and coordinate with friendly BB's to get the quick kills. Planes are an awesome distraction :)

 

tenor4.gif

Edited by ElectroVeeDub
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