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UraraShiraishi

is BFT more worth it than AFT

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I've been ignoring my USA CL/CA this entire year, but now I want to return to them.. 

One of the reasons that I have been ignoring them (besides the ever changing AA) is just how hard it is to decide which skills to master for these ships- they all seem super useful...

Anyway my main point of the post is to ask.. is BFT more worth it than AFT?

BFT:  continuous dmg by all AA mounts (if I am correct, it means the guaranteed dmg when the planes enter AA radius goes up?)

AFT: dps from "explosions" of flak bursts goes up.. I don't play carriers, but won't the experienced carrier players be able to avoid these?

So now that AFT doesn't increase AA range by 20% and only gives more dmg to these fireballs an experienced carrier player can avoid, while BFT gives increased guaranteed dmg, isn't BFT the better choice??

 

Also it would be appreciated if you guys give me your optimal captain skills for the ships.. I'll be playing Pepsi, NoLa, Indy, and Helena-dono

I think for now I'll hold off taking IFHE until they decide not to implement the armor changes..

 

bft.jpg

aft.jpg

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I suppose they do something. I have both on My tier X cruisers and the Montana and they are all plane-killing monsters. However, you need to weigh the possibility of 1. a CV even being in a match and 2. a plane coming over to pester you, against the possibility that other skills might serve you better.

I can't say that these are the best builds but they are what I've got and they might give you an idea.

Worcester 14 point (standard)

image.thumb.png.ab4be0c992cae996608139ec2f242e89.png

Des Moines 19 point (special)

image.thumb.png.36b3ec93f57f2c4d65e07e4feed50c81.png 

Minotaur 17 pt (special)

image.thumb.png.619dae3b00225d7a372e46c662e64e6d.png

 

Edited by Snargfargle
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When it comes to AA, BFT > AFT

 

If you want a 4pts AA skill take MAA

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2 minutes ago, AlcatrazNC said:

When it comes to AA, BFT > AFT

 

If you want a 4pts AA skill take MAA

In the current CV environment AFT is the better choice because it helps the secondaries too. Now if the devs ever figure out how to make CV more popular again MFAA will be a useful choice again.

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19 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

In the current CV environment AFT is the better choice because it helps the secondaries too. Now if the devs ever figure out how to make CV more popular again MFAA will be a useful choice again.

I'm not sure that USN CL/CA should care in the slightest bit about boosting their secondaries.

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20 minutes ago, enderland07 said:

I'm not sure that USN CL/CA should care in the slightest bit about boosting their secondaries.

My bad, my original post specifically mentioned BB's but I started over and left it off but for cruisers you are correct since their secondaries even those with five and six inch guns have such ridiculously short range.

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In the current environment, I take Manual AA to boost my AA, AFT for secondaries on certain BBs, and I don’t take BFT at all. AA is overtuned at the moment, so between manual AA and/or DFAA, I fear no carrier.

Now, the changes to priority sector and AA mechanics are set to drop with 0.8.7, so all of this may change very soon. Sub_Octavian announced on a recent stream where he detailed the upcoming AA changes that there will be a free respec at this time, so you’ll have a chance to experiment with new builds to see what works with the new mechanics.

In the meanitime, I would not hold off on taking IFHE. It greatly increases the effectiveness of 152mm guns, and I usually take it prior to CE on my US and Soviet CLs. IIRC, the proposed changes of IFHE and cruiser plating have yet to even enter testing, are subject to change, and the chances of such major changes going through without some sort of respec being offered is pretty low, IMO.

I recently graduated from Helena to Cleveland and moved my captain up, but for Helena I’d recommend PT, AR, SI, IFHE, and CE at 14 points. Then decide whether you want to boost your AA (Manual AA + PM) or general combat utility (DE + EM or JoAT). DE can also be substituted for SI in the base build if you intend to keep the captain on Helena, as she doesn’t have radar and can make due with fewer consumable charges, especially since you have both DFAA and catapult fighters.

Edited by Nevermore135

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I choose both for any ship. If the mains are less than 139 and it has secondary's and AA they are additive for all 3 weapons. If the mains exceed 139 then the other 2 weapons get a double boost.  

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1 hour ago, UraraShiraishi said:

BFT:  continuous dmg by all AA mounts (if I am correct, it means the guaranteed dmg when the planes enter AA radius goes up?)

AFT: dps from "explosions" of flak bursts goes up.. I don't play carriers, but won't the experienced carrier players be able to avoid these?

The explosion covers a certain radius, and while at times, depending on ship, the longest range flak can be dodged, Buffalo has 10 of the max 14 bursts that can fill a groups AA zone in it's mediums, so it's +15% to anything in those burst ranges, which is an extra 15% of over 1000 DPS. Even the best can only dodge so much and those bursts cover a decent area. 

That said - if you haven't heard AA is getting a massive overhaul at somepoint relatively soon. They are reducing the power gap of AA between ships and tiers, nerfing the continuous AA boost of DFAA but buffing what it does to Flak, while going back to the old overlapping AA fields and having Flak as a fixed separate thing that stops at 3.5 km out from whatever max AA range is. Which if they go back to the overlap system maybe opens a door we go back to AFT increasing range. On that front it honestly is better to hold in that regard. 

 

As to generally at the moment -

Pensacola, NO(?) and Indy - the 203 guns don't need IFHE. They already pen 32 mm automatically. If you use PT, that, if not PM, and depending on points used maybe both (I personally assume all remaining ships are targeting me, so I don't bother with PT). I swear by EM as you can never have too fast turret rotation. 3 point skills is dealers choice, and CE is basically a must. If you want a second 4 point skill, I'd argue RL if AFT seems not worth it. Otherwise maybe an extra 3 point skill. Manual AA has seemed pretty 'meh' to me and again - AA is getting a bunch of changes soon.

 

Helena - do not sell IFHE short even if the nerf goes through as is because it DOES NOT actually fix the IFHE/fire combo issue anywhere near correctly. Yes most, if not all, tier 8 and 9 BB's will no longer have all their armour easily autopenned and CL will have to go back to actually having to aim at the super structure (and yes I play CL's and think that's a good thing) - however it over nerfs fire in that scenario. However - pretty much every heavy cruiser including USN, and any BB below tier 8 - the fire issue is somewhat fixed but you will still auto pen them all day long if you take IFHE. Either way you will likely want CE absolutely and really the same as above applies to this too. It's really a case of does Wargaming introduced yet another fix for something that is half thought out and breaks things further, they make the right fix for a change, or they scrap it all together. 

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1 hour ago, WanderingGhost said:

However - pretty much every heavy cruiser including USN, and any BB below tier 8 -  you will still auto pen them all day long if you take IFHE. 

I think this bit is the important part of the paragraph (for me) since I don't play T8 up.. I don't know the meta and I don't really want to bother to learn it.. I suppose the number of pew pews is the major deciding factor..

Also yes don't worry I know not to put IFHE on 203's

Well, yeah maybe I should hold and hope for the free respec 

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1 hour ago, Nevermore135 said:

I recently graduated from Helena to Cleveland and moved my captain up, but for Helena I’d recommend PT, AR, SI, IFHE, and CE at 14 points. Then decide whether you want to boost your AA (Manual AA + PM) or general combat utility (DE + EM or JoAT). DE can also be substituted for SI in the base build if you intend to keep the captain on Helena, as she doesn’t have radar and can make due with fewer consumable charges, especially since you have both DFAA and catapult fighters.

I tend not to take SI very much as I feel that I either don't survive long enough to warrant the use of the extra charge, or I don't get enough opportunities to use it, or the extra charge not a "lifesaver" in most situations to make the 3 points a worthwhile investment.. I have a forum topic here discussing it actually..

The only ships I run SI with are ones with smoke (Fiji), superheal (Nelson) or limited DCP (Velikiy, Izmail, future Sinop)

So for T3 skills I think I'll just take DE, and then IFHE and CE at T4.. and then once I pass 14 I'll go and grab as many of the T1 or T2 skills as I can..

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4 hours ago, UraraShiraishi said:

The only ships I run SI with are ones with smoke (Fiji), superheal (Nelson) or limited DCP (Velikiy, Izmail, future Sinop)

So for T3 skills I think I'll just take DE, and then IFHE and CE at T4.. and then once I pass 14 I'll go and grab as many of the T1 or T2 skills as I can..

I kept Dallas in my port for scenarios, partly because I have the NY camo, and that’s exactly the build I’m running. For CLs I feel SI is only really “necessary” (and I use the term loosely, since YMMV) if you have radar or smoke. Having an extra heal is nice, but most high tier cruisers tend to take burst damage vs the DOT you see in BBs, so taking SI just because your cruiser has RP is questionable. In fact, the only cruiser I play where I feel that taking SI primarily for another heal is worthwhile is Prinz Eugen (a CA), but she gets only 2 charges base (vs the buffed 3 of Roon and Hindenburg) and actually has the survivability to live long enough to make use of it.

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3 minutes ago, Nevermore135 said:

For CLs I feel SI is only really “necessary” if you have radar or smoke. 

Well yeah you recommended SI as the T3 skill for Helena..

I don't see the value of an extra DFAA/Fighter, thus my last comment

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1 hour ago, UraraShiraishi said:

Well yeah you recommended SI as the T3 skill for Helena..

I don't see the value of an extra DFAA/Fighter, thus my last comment

It’s primarily for the extra radar when you get to Cleveland and beyond, as that was my reasoning for taking the skill at T3. It’s why I suggested DE as a viable alternative if the captain is staying on Helena. I agree regarding DFAA/catapult fighters - the only real benefit of SI on Helena is the extra hydro (which is nice but good awareness can protect against torps). Always having both DFAA and fighters means you can stagger your usage of the two, so you always have an AA defense consumable on hand and you are unlikely to burn through all charges of both in a single match, especially with premium consumables.

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The 3 point BFT is currently way better than the 4 point AFT in the vast majority of cases. They were more or less balanced when 0.8.0 when continuous damage was weak compared to flak, but continuous got huge buffs, flak got nerfed ... yet AFT has never changed.

As a general rule, I'll ALWAYS take BFT over AFT unless I'm playing a secondary specced battleship. So only my German and USN BB captains have AFT.

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2 hours ago, Nevermore135 said:

It’s primarily for the extra radar when you get to Cleveland and beyond, as that was my reasoning for taking the skill at T3. It’s why I suggested DE as a viable alternative if the captain is staying on Helena. I agree regarding DFAA/catapult fighters - the only real benefit of SI on Helena is the extra hydro (which is nice but good awareness can protect against torps). Always having both DFAA and fighters means you can stagger your usage of the two, so you always have an AA defense consumable on hand and you are unlikely to burn through all charges of both in a single match, especially with premium consumables.

Actually, I already have T8 Cleveland.. I just don't bother playing high tier, especially T8 where I get to face T10. I don't know the meta, most of the ships there, and the strats. Plus, way too many pew pews/1 salvo delet

So I'm just playing T4-T7 where it's nice and fun

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9 minutes ago, DolphinPrincess said:

There is a very simple flow chart for BFT and AFT

  • Is your main battery greater than 139mm?

If no, take both BFT and AFT

If yes, dont take either of them

You take those skills to increase your DPM and range, if your main battery doesnt fit the criteria, then there is no reason to take them.

So just consider the AA in US cruisers to be "good enough" and leave them as is?

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7 hours ago, DolphinPrincess said:

There is very little value to AA specing in the current meta.

You are much better off spending those points into something more valuable such as SI and DE

Now that I think of it, seems to make sense.. if it's decent already, then no need to over spec on the AA.. It's not every game i see CV, too.. Maybe I should focus on QOL and gunnery improvements instead..

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