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DevilD0g

Destroyer AA cancer

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We now see that  destroyers in tier 7 8 9 and 10 are outshooting cruisers in the amount of planes they shoot down

Sometimes 20 planes more.

I saw one Destroyer shred a bombing group of 6 planes,   i know its a game but realistically this shouldnt happen.  its overpowered.

This needs review  for game balance  as the DD's are becoming OP

Im all for having AA destroyers as I play them as well, but when they outshoot Atlantas and other cruisers then you have to start looking at it on balance and thinking some change is needed.

And for those players that are getting very high plane kills like now a DD wiill do  30 to 60 plane kills, which far outstrips what a cruiser can do, and wont want it to change.

There has to be a counter as well so planes also need to be able to have gun/cannon strafing damage from all attack planes when they start their runs. 

We used to have run strafing, we need to bring it back

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Yeah it is nuts to see DD's kill more planes than Cruisers yet the CV's still send them to them.  You have to admit that for a while Cv's dominated the game and if they targeted you it was over. 

Just like when Tier 6 Cv's send their planes over my Massachusetts. 

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There's two key reasons why some AA DDs can consistently rack up loads of plane kills.

First of all, AA ambush. Ships like Kidd or Grozovoi can catch planes completely off guard by timing when they will open AA, use DFAA, switch sectors.

Secondly, DDs are getting attacked more often by CVs nowadays. If a CV spends 5 minutes over BBs and 10-15 over DDs what do you think will happen?

Besides, some of plane "kill" stats can appear overly inflated due to fighters. Case in point, a recent battle I had, with 51 planes shot down in Kidd:

shot-19_08.01_23_56.12-0137.thumb.jpg.8b6350cb3854ecff11817acc87db7215.jpg

As you can see about 1/5th of the planes shot down were either fighters or spotter planes, thus not reflecting the strike capabilities of the CV.

Edited by warheart1992
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Of course the DDs are shooting down more planes than Cruisers.  A lot of these Cruisers I wouldn't want to be anywhere near with my aircraft, and on NA server, USN Cruisers are pretty popular.  Tons of those have good AA.

 

CVs especially early in a game, go for DDs because they tend to be the most forward sailing ships and likely isolated.  Because CVs are going more for DDs than Cruisers, it's natural DDs end up shooting a fair amount of planes down.  Some of those DDs are even dangerous AA threats like later USN DDs, Grozovoi.  Even the Akizuki portion of the IJN DD Line can do a decent number.

 

Case in point:  You're playing a CV, here are three potential targets in the area.

North Carolina

Cleveland

Kidd

Pick your poison.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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Thats why i bought the kidd

 Yeah pretty much still don't take out many destroyers that can't hang in the AA environment

 But the ones that can :cap_rambo: love them

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8 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Of course the DDs are shooting down more planes than Cruisers.  A lot of these Cruisers I wouldn't want to be anywhere near with my aircraft, and on NA server, USN Cruisers are pretty popular.  Tons of those have good AA.

 

CVs especially early in a game, go for DDs because they tend to be the most forward sailing ships and likely isolated.  Because CVs are going more for DDs than Cruisers, it's natural DDs end up shooting a fair amount of planes down.  Some of those DDs are even dangerous AA threats like later USN DDs, Grozovoi.  Even the Akizuki portion of the IJN DD Line can do a decent number.

 

Case in point:  You're playing a CV, here are three potential targets in the area.

North Carolina

Cleveland

Kidd

Pick your poison.

Whichever one is outside the AA bubble of the other two, even by as little as 500 meters. Drop fighters just outside the AA bubble. DBs are a waste due to the approach pattern from ahead or astern, even with the slingshot. High speed approach with TBs or strike planes from the off side, and turn back out after launch, or press the go home key. One shot is all you get. You will lose at least half of your strike package, if not the whole squadron, in any case.

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The AA in PT 8.7 is even stronger. If you dare attack a ship that hasn't been worked over and lost AA mounts you'll be lucky to have a plane survive much less score a hit.

Also plane to ship strafe would be useless since machine guns and cannons would never get into range before the ship AA shot them all down.

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I'm OK with this. If CV attacks an AA spec DD, the planes should die. The CV lives, the DD lives, the planes regenerate, the CV either finds a new target or loses more planes.

But, if a CV finds a DD with weak AA, the CV lives, the DD dies, the planes regenerate, and the DD never even sees the CV. 

So wait, which one is it that's OP?

Edited by SgtMajorBuzz
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Normal DD-hunting tactics involve dropping a fighter squadron over the destroyer to maintain spotting on it while you circle the bombers around for a strike pass. Fighters have very few HP and are easily shot down, but still show up as plane kills. Most DD plane kill credit comes from this. 90% of the rest comes from CVs derping into flak or sucking so bad at lining up the attack that they end up looping around and around in AA for several minutes. Only the last 10% or so is real damage against striking planes -- maybe 20% if it's a DFAA destroyer with significant points in AA.

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56 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

There's two key reasons why some AA DDs can consistently rack up loads of plane kills.

First of all, AA ambush. Ships like Kidd or Grozovoi can catch planes completely off guard by timing when they will open AA, use DFAA, switch sectors.

Secondly, DDs are getting attacked more often by CVs nowadays. If a CV spends 5 minutes over BBs and 10-15 over DDs what do you think will happen?

Besides, some of plane "kill" stats can appear overly inflated due to fighters. Case in point, a recent battle I had, with 51 planes shot down in Kidd:

As you can see about 1/5th of the planes shot down were either fighters or spotter planes, thus not reflecting the strike capabilities of the CV.

This is a great observation, warheart.  It's been a tactic since the rework for a CV to drop a fight squad near a DD to keep it spotted.  But if the DD had good AA, all you're doing is feeding the DD more plane kills.  Now, to be fair, if it's not a great AA destroyer, it might keep the DD spotted long enough for it to take heavy damage or get killed.  

 

 

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Had a Hakuryu do it to me recently in my non AA spec Benson. I shot down 2 whole planes during the 5 passes it took him to rocket me to death. So forgive my lack of sympathy for your planes that regenerate. 

Also keep in mind , that DDs have to sacrifice many skills and mods in order for them to be able to kill planes. That makes them less useful against other types of ships, not to mention that there is the good chance that there won't even be a CV in the match, which makes the AA skills and mods useless.

Nope

No sympathy

4 minutes ago, Crucis said:

This is a great observation, warheart.  It's been a tactic since the rework for a CV to drop a fight squad near a DD to keep it spotted.  But if the DD had good AA, all you're doing is feeding the DD more plane kills.  Now, to be fair, if it's not a great AA destroyer, it might keep the DD spotted long enough for it to take heavy damage or get killed.  

 

 

 

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What about the DDs that previous did not have good AA?
I have had some battles in a T8 CV, where a low tier T6 DD destroys the entire squadron.

I can accept losing aircraft to an AA DD or even a higher level DD with decent AA if I am low Tiered.

Its the DDs that previously wouldn't get a plane kill in before the re-work but now seem to be mini Atlantas that are bothering me.

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1 hour ago, warheart1992 said:

First of all, AA ambush. Ships like Kidd or Grozovoi can catch planes completely off guard by timing when they will open AA, use DFAA, switch sectors.

:Smile_great:  I don't know if the current iteration of AA is similar, but during the last tier X ranked I got something like 27 kills in one game with my Z-52.  But I did it by supporting friendly cruisers and BBs that were under air attack.  I was undetected, but rushed toward the friendly ships and turned on my AA just as the planes were starting their attack.  My thinking was that the CV player would be focused on lining up the shot and dodging flak coming from the target, and wouldn't notice the flak coming from a different angle.  I don't know for sure if that's what actually happened, but it seemed to work.  Now if that same Z-52 got attacked on its own, the AA was not nearly as good, but it was sufficient to hurt a squadron that lingered overhead too long.

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If it's a US DD, they have always had strong AA, other than that, I dont know of any that got buffs. Can you list a few so I can check them out please?

Edited by SgtMajorBuzz

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Orrrrrrr they are just a better targer to cvs.

With exception of kidd/grozovoi/harugumo/usnddsingeneral(with aa build) a cv will prefer atack a dd then a cruisers, so the dd have more chances to kill some planes ...

You need be a really dumb to give planes to a usn cruiser.

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At 1 time, a year or so before the CV rework, I had the record for plane kills in the Sims and Lo Yang. And my 1 and only Clear Sky achievement was in the Gearing with something like 60 planes. But, the records have long since been beaten, and Clear Sky is gone, but AA DDs have always been a thing, except immediately after the CV rework. Now, things are getting back to normal. 

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25 minutes ago, SgtMajorBuzz said:

Had a Hakuryu do it to me recently in my non AA spec Benson. I shot down 2 whole planes during the 5 passes it took him to rocket me to death. So forgive my lack of sympathy for your planes that regenerate. 

Also keep in mind , that DDs have to sacrifice many skills and mods in order for them to be able to kill planes. That makes them less useful against other types of ships, not to mention that there is the good chance that there won't even be a CV in the match, which makes the AA skills and mods useless.

Nope

No sympathy

 

The feeling is very mutual. 

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The vast majority of DDs have very poor AA. There are only a few exceptions. It's the CV player's fault for not realizing which targets are ideal and which are not.

Hint: If you're attacking a DD and see red flak, get out of dodge and come back a minute later.

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2 hours ago, warheart1992 said:

There's two key reasons why some AA DDs can consistently rack up loads of plane kills.

First of all, AA ambush. Ships like Kidd or Grozovoi can catch planes completely off guard by timing when they will open AA, use DFAA, switch sectors.

Secondly, DDs are getting attacked more often by CVs nowadays. If a CV spends 5 minutes over BBs and 10-15 over DDs what do you think will happen?

Besides, some of plane "kill" stats can appear overly inflated due to fighters. Case in point, a recent battle I had, with 51 planes shot down in Kidd:

shot-19_08.01_23_56.12-0137.thumb.jpg.8b6350cb3854ecff11817acc87db7215.jpg

As you can see about 1/5th of the planes shot down were either fighters or spotter planes, thus not reflecting the strike capabilities of the CV.

There is more to it than that, until the coming AA changes drop DDs also get a better multiplier on damage from sector and DFAA. A Groz with DFAA and sector set has AA to rival a similarly specced Wooster at least in the constant DPS. 

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27 minutes ago, Lord_Slayer said:

What about the DDs that previous did not have good AA?
I have had some battles in a T8 CV, where a low tier T6 DD destroys the entire squadron.

I can accept losing aircraft to an AA DD or even a higher level DD with decent AA if I am low Tiered.

Its the DDs that previously wouldn't get a plane kill in before the re-work but now seem to be mini Atlantas that are bothering me.

I'm calling bull sh*t on this one.  The only way to have an entire squadron shot down by a T6 DD is to loiter over it without attacking for several minutes. 

1 hour ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Of course the DDs are shooting down more planes than Cruisers.  A lot of these Cruisers I wouldn't want to be anywhere near with my aircraft, and on NA server, USN Cruisers are pretty popular.  Tons of those have good AA.

But DDs aren't shooting more planes than cruisers, not even close.  Latest from Maple Syrup, high tier average plane kills for cruisers 2.47 planes, DDs 1.30 planes. 

6 minutes ago, KaptainKaybe said:

The vast majority of DDs have very poor AA. There are only a few exceptions. It's the CV player's fault for not realizing which targets are ideal and which are not.

Hint: If you're attacking a DD and see red flak, get out of dodge and come back a minute later.

We have the nerf bat beating for DFAA coming up and these DDs will longer have any teeth.  It was the 200% dps increase from DAFF that really allowed these DDs to shoot down planes.  That 200% will be nerfed to 50%.

Here the reality of DDs verses CVs, this one of Zoup's recent video that many of you have probably seen.  He's in the Audacious completely trolling a Gearing.  The Gearing shoots down one or two planes as Zoup made all three attack runs.  And the Gearing is supposed to have good AA.  Here's the video timestamped to the trolling.

 

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8 minutes ago, 1nv4d3rZ1m said:

There is more to it than that, until the coming AA changes drop DDs also get a better multiplier on damage from sector and DFAA. A Groz with DFAA and sector set has AA to rival a similarly specced Wooster at least in the constant DPS. 

Agreed,  I'm curious how AA DDs like Kidd and Grozovoi will turn out. 

Can't speak for Grozo, but Kidd definitely feels very strong when facing it's own tier CVs.

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8 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

We have the nerf bat beating for DFAA coming up and these DDs will longer have any teeth.  It was the 200% dps increase from DAFF that really allowed these DDs to shoot down planes.  That 200% will be nerfed to 50%.

Yeah, I think this change would badly nerf AA oriented DDs. And I do mean BADLY. DDs don't have a dozen flak clouds being thrown up and depend much more on continuous damage. Nerfing that from 200% down to 50% is way too punishing for them. It shouldn't drop below 100%.

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I just wish they would add the confusion back to DFAA, it at least gave us a chance to dodge

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2 hours ago, DevilD0g said:

We now see that  destroyers in tier 7 8 9 and 10 are outshooting cruisers in the amount of planes they shoot down

You do realize, don't you, that one of the primary roles of a destroyer in WWII was in providing anti-aircraft support for carriers and convoys? Fletchers had five 127 mm dual-purpose guns, ten 40 mm Bofors, and twelve 20 mm Oerlikons. That's a whale of a lot of AA firepower, more actually than many cruisers had.

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