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Kachok1980

Secondary builds (other then German BBs)

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I have been intrigued by the secondary build lately after getting my first Close Quarters Combat ribbon by accident, comparing BBs and CAs from various countries to try but pretty much any time I look up secondary builds all I see is info on the German BBs. I know their HE is darn good and they have pretty good range on their secondaries but are there any other ships worth considering that kind of build on or is there a reason all anyone ever talks about is the Germans? French and Japaneese have some impressive range as well it seems.

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2 minutes ago, Kachok1980 said:

I have been intrigued by the secondary build lately after getting my first Close Quarters Combat ribbon by accident, comparing BBs and CAs from various countries to try but pretty much any time I look up secondary builds all I see is info on the German BBs. I know their HE is darn good and they have pretty good range on their secondaries but are there any other ships worth considering that kind of build on or is there a reason all anyone ever talks about is the Germans? French and Japaneese have some impressive range as well it seems.

The French upper tiers have long base range, but don’t deal as much damage, and USN certain ships, Massachusetts, Georgia, and soon the Ohio.

Edited by BarneyStyle

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It does not look like the French have an issue with potential damage, higher rate of fire and more guns with higher fire chance then any of the tech tree USN ships (I cannot see the specs on the ships you listed) of course the German tier X still has them beat with higher armor pen and almost as much range, not to mention a tankier construction. The Japaneese have the most secondaries I have seen, 30 on the Yamato their reload time is a second slower but with 300 more base damage vs the US 127mm. All of the above seem to be good canadits for a secondary build though clearly the Germans are the best if you are going to be using your secondaries against other BBs.

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German BBs T8 and up (Bismarck, Tirpitz, Friederich der Große, Großer Kurfürst)

French BBs T8 and up (Richelieu, Gascogne, Alsace, Jean Bart, République, Bourgogne)

Georgia, Massachusetts, (WiP) Ohio

 

I prefer the French ones because, although the guns are weaker, your speed allows you to choose when you get in secondary range. Anything below T8 is not nearly as comfortable to brawl in, but Scharnhorst and Gneisenau come to mind. I wouldn't run secndaries on anything Japanese.

Edited by pewpewpew42

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8 minutes ago, pewpewpew42 said:

I wouldn't run secndaries on anything Japanese.

I use a secondary build on Nagato for use in Narai. Works very well parked broad side in front of the repair ship..

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Yes, German secondaries are great, they have better pen going for them (T8 and up range from 25mm all the way up to 37mm), the only class that don't need IFHE to make Secondaries do damage

as for the rest:

Japanese: only Izumo and Yamato have good range (7km or better,) but have minimal hitting power and slow reloads. Not to mention a Yamato is garbage in close quarter engagements.

Russians: largely forgettable, lack range or substantial numbers of them, likely worst Secondary batteries of any tech tree BBs

Tech Tree Americans: nerfed 5in/38s and poor range, largely forgettable

Roma (and probably Italian BBs, whenever they come): somehow worse than the Russians, no range and most of them do no damage

French: Interesting choice. They have range starting at T8, have a decent number of them, and good fire chance. However, on further look:

Richelieu and Jean Bart: Secondaries placed astern, horrible firing arcs, bulk of secondaries are 100mm guns that will do no damage to basically anything, and the 6in guns reload slowly (12secs) with a small broadside (6 most times, 9 if full broadside or target is 90 degrees you)

Alsace: 2 out of 3 6in Secondary guns placed reward (forgiven due to Alsace's fantastic reward main gun firing angles compared to forward,) same issues as Richelieu and Jean Bart except Alsace's secondaries are all not at the back and can fire some secondaries to her front.

Gascogne: most secondaries placed forward, same slow reload on the 6in guns and no pen damage on the 100mms

Bourgogne: 100mms replaced by 127mms, which will damage DDs and all superstructures, without losing reload. 6in guns reload 4 secs faster (8sec). Same secondary placement as Alsace (she actually is Alsace but behind a steel wall)

Republique: 100mms replaced by 127mms, which will damage DDs and all superstructures, without losing reload. 6in guns reload 4 secs faster (8sec). Same secondary placement as Gascogne.

Best FR BBs to go secondary spec for randoms are probably Republique and Bourgogne. If you have Gascogne, and if Hermes ever comes back, then a secondary build works for her in that operation.

 

US BB premiums Massachusetts, Georgia, and upcoming Ohio: compared to their Tech tree counterparts, they have the same guns, however, unlike NC and Iowa, Mass and Georgia fire in 4secs, instead of 6secs, and Ohio in 3.5secs, rather than 4 for Montana. Ohio, Mass, and Georgia have 7.5km range base, versus 5 or 6 depending on tier of tech tree ship. Most importantly, the accuracy on those guns is 40% better than any other secondary battery in the game, meaning they hit often, and can make quick work of DDs and cruisers if IFHE is taken. 

Even better is that Ohio has 5in/54s, which have better shell arcs and almost double the fire chance, so she may be now the best secondary boat in the game right now. She can be yours for the small price of regrinding about 6-7 lines because WG loves trying to push bad ideas through, community backlash be damned.

Hope that helps.

Edited by tfcas119

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Are there any lower tier ships (6 and under) where secondaries are very useful or is it only for top tier ships? My Bayern as 24 secondaries with up to 37mm armor pen and a base range of 5km, that is as high as I am in the German tech tree at the moment.

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1 hour ago, Kachok1980 said:

I have been intrigued by the secondary build lately after getting my first Close Quarters Combat ribbon by accident, comparing BBs and CAs from various countries to try but pretty much any time I look up secondary builds all I see is info on the German BBs. I know their HE is darn good and they have pretty good range on their secondaries but are there any other ships worth considering that kind of build on or is there a reason all anyone ever talks about is the Germans? French and Japaneese have some impressive range as well it seems.

German BBs as you see, are the general brawling, secondaries-based experts.

 

A number of French BBs in mid tier, namely VI-VII have decent secondaries range like the Germans, but understand that mid tier BB secondaries ideally reach around 7.2km-7.5km... It's not that much.

 

High Tier (VIII-X) is where Secondaries range take off for the BBs that are capable of it.  This is where you start seeing 10km-12km long range secondaries.  The best Secondaries Build candidates:

VIII-X German & French BBs

For Non-French / German High Tier candidates:

VIII Massachusetts

IX Georgia

IX-X IJN BBs

 

I included the Tier IX-X IJN BBs because technically they can reach out decently far.  Not as far as the Germans and French BBs these tiers, but definitely further out than their USN peers.  In PVP however, Secondaries Build in these upper tiers are no longer popular choices for IJN BBs despite the potentially decent range.  Izumo has to show quite a bit of sides to get more secondaries to fire.    Musashi & Yamato fighting in 11km or less are in a potentially dangerous situation where they may be outmaneuvered in a brawl and smashed at a vulnerable angle for big multi-citadel hits.  I'm not saying IJN BBs cannot brawl, but the risk for them skyrockets, especially for Yamato-class.

Edit:  Game history note.  When this game was newer in 2015, when it was only USN & IJN BBs, IJN BB players frequently took Secondary Builds.  Namely Nagato, Amagi, Yamato (Musashi wasn't in the game at the time).  This was so until German BBs arrived with their powerful secondaries and most importantly, turtleback protection scheme.  German BBs literally debo'd Battleship Brawling to the point that I don't know any IJN BB PVPers anymore that do Secondary Builds in Tier VII+.  If any do, they are rare.  Yamato Secondary Builds were so common before the arrival of the German BB Line.  People did it because "Her guns are already more than accurate enough without ASM1."  German BBs changed everything in BB gameplay with their arrival.

 

In today's High Tier (VIII-X) game, the German BBs now have a leg up on the French BBs that differentiated them more from each other.  Both styles of secondaries have pro's and con's.

French

+ High reliance on fast firing 100mm guns.

+ Tier IX-X can be fire starters due to their ROF and sheer quantity of secondary guns.

- 100mm guns have very low HE Pen, it cannot even penetrate the 19mm superstructure of High Tier BBs.  Either you take the very expensive IFHE to help let them pen that, at the cost of highly restricting your build, or you shrug your shoulders and take the 3pt DE to just go all in as a Fire Starter secondaries build.

+ Tier X Republique switches to 127mm secondaries with far better natural pen, and have very nice Fire Chances.

- Secondaries gun arrangement on Richelieu, Jean Bart aren't quite ideal and need to show a lot of sides to get a lot of guns firing.

- Richelieu look sexy as a Secondaries BB due to range until one sees how slow her secondaries fire and how few you actually have.

 

German

+ With a recent update, all High Tier German BB secondary guns now have the /4 HE Pen instead of the /6.  This is very important as the older 105mm secondaries on FDG, Bismarck-class used to have the low pen with the old /6 formula.  High Tier German BB 105s now can pen 25mm of armor.

+ German 128mm secondaries have insane HE Pen capability because of the gun size and special /4 HE Pen they have.

Spoiler

 

Normal 127mm:     127mm / 6 = 21.33 or 21mm of armor needed to defeat this HE shell.  This is a common secondaries gun size for USN & IJN BBs.

German 128mm:    128mm / 4 = 32mm of armor needed to defeat this HE shell.  There are many High Tier BBs with 32mm armor all over the place.

Normal 127mm with IFHE:  (127mm / 6) x 1.3 = 27.5 or 28mm of armor needed to defeat this HE shell.

German 128mm with IFHE:  (128mm / 4) x 1.3 = 41.6 or 42mm of armor needed to defeat this HE shell... This is insane HE Pen for secondaries, even carves right through the High Tier USN BB 38mm decks.

Source for the math behind HE Penetration.  However, German BBs with 128mm secondaries are rare.  Only 2 ships have them:  Tier VII Gneisenau and Tier X GK.

 

- German Secondaries aren't known as "Fire Starters" today, but the High Tier ones now all have very high Pen so they do more regular shell damage across many targets.

- As is normal with a lot of BBs, you have to show a bit of side to get more secondaries to fire at a target.  Be very careful doing this against USN BBs... They like to fire AP at the base of your superstructure and get Pens that way with their higher than usual shell arcs.

+ GK in Tier X has a scary Secondaries Battery:  Tons of super high pen 150mm and 128mm guns that fire at a great rate.  A regular Manual Secondaries Build is enough to make them scary in the brawl, but a few are nutjobs that even go all the way and add IFHE into the build.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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