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TheDgamesD

SAP for Roma is a needed change

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First off i'll say trust me when I say I know how she plays: As of writing this I've played 270 battles in her.
So now we know that we're getting Semi-AP with the upcoming Italian Cruiser line it should be a open and shut case that the Roma be changed to match this new shell type specifically as the original reason going around the forums when she was being added as for why she wont get her SAP is because they have no plans to ever add it. Yet here we are with it being added.
The reason it's a needed change is a two-fold answer:

1: Every ship armed with the Cannone da 381/50 Ansaldo M1934 guns (Roma, Littorio, and Vittorio Veneto) never fired nor carried a single round of High-Explosive rounds for their 15' guns. HE shells were designed and tested for them, but their fuses were deemed too sensitive and so the HE shells never saw production past testing. The fact that Roma was given HE to begin with did cause a bit of a slight controversy but it was quelled only because of the reason that SAP just wasn't going to be added. Yet now it is. So there's no reason a change to reflect this shouldn't be considered.

2: Currently Roma is severely lacking across the board when compared to her competitors at her tier (and even some a tier lower if we're honest).

Spoiler

 

-She has the worst dispersion at her tier, even worse than Vladivostok (even though the same reason Roma's vertical dispersion was made so abhorrent isn't even accurate to the guns performance historically, but doesn't affect the Vladivostok anywhere near as badly despite Vlad having the advantage of a larger caliber.)
-She has the second worst range at her tier (only beaten out by Vladivostok by less than a kilometer.), and that's Despite having the longest maximum range for her guns of any battleship ever set afloat historically: (the 884.8 kg AP rounds able to reach 42.8 km at the maximum elevation of +36. This out-ranged the 46cm/45 Type 94 of the Yamato-class by almost 800 meters, and the 16"/50 Mk.7 of the Iowa-class by over 4000 meters.)
-Has some of, if not the worst AA of any battleship at her tier.
-Her Armor layout is not only inaccurate and removes her historical Turtleback like design (her inner armor protection scheme in-game was simplified and meshed together as just one plate instead of the historical turtleback like scheme) But is so high above the waterline you will always either die or lose 75% of your hitpoints for someone catching your broadside. when that shouldn't even be possible for a citadel like that to even happen at close range.
-Her gun caliber at her tier severely limits her ability to hurt targets that she engages since a majority of cruisers at her tier have enough bow armor (27mm+) to auto-bounce her shells when bow in. Leading to an infuriating cycle of you shooting them and dealing no damage while they just keep chunking away at your hitpoints. Which is infuriating as while I know and understand overmatch is calculated based solely on gun caliber, According to records the Armor-Piercing shells of the Roma had similar penetrative ability against vertical (belt) armor to the 16' guns of the Iowa and the 18" guns of the Yamato, but due to the shallow angle of impact and high velocity of the shells, their performance against horizontal (deck) armor was far inferior. Due to the extremely shallow shell arcs. So in my eyes there's two solutions to that problem: give her overmatch capabilities similar to 16" guns or give her SAP to be able to actively fight back against bow in targets.

 

She doesn't fit any role that feels like her own or actually works in the meta; The idea I can tell what WG intended with her was a close range stealthy (by BB standards) brawler, Problem is. that doesn't work given her stats. Her armor is too weak and citadel too exposed to get in close, which makes you feel you need to hang back, but your guns are too inaccurate to land any hits at anything past 12km, let alone 6-10 (where she'll still struggle to barely land 4 if you're lucky.) So it paradoxically makes you feel forced to get closer to do any damage but you know you cant get closer because of your armor layout and that everything will focus you down. 

And so as it stands she doesn't have anything that makes her unique or anything that's her own, there's a ship that performs better than her in every category out there, and she's not a jack of all trades either, she's sadly just infuriatingly below average across the board. She's desperately in need of something to make her feel unique and perform at a similar level to her peers. 


Honestly most of the issues I have always experienced when playing her that have kept me from loving her in game as much as I do historically, has to do with her guns. Which is rather ironic since historically they were one of her biggest strengths. And the fix to give her SAP not only makes sense historically, but practically, since no one uses her HE, and it would perform much better and allow her to have something to adequately fight back at her tier and be on a level playing field with her equal tier opponents rather than feeling like a tier 7.5 like she does now.
 

 

Edited by TheDgamesD
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We all know that one of the other class ships like Roma will be the T8 normal tech tree ships, the remaining one should be a new premium one. Maybe with Massachusetts like stats...

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Even before the introduction of SAP into the game, people were calling for WG to add it as an alternative to Roma's dreadful (and historically inaccurate) HE shells. I'd be over the moon if they'd implement such an ammo choice for the ship.

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20 minutes ago, TheDgamesD said:

First off i'll say trust me when I say I know how she plays: As of writing this I've played 270 battles in her.
So now we know that we're getting Semi-AP with the upcoming Italian Cruiser line it should be a open and shut case that the Roma be changed to match this new shell type specifically as the original reason going around the forums when she was being added as for why she wont get her SAP is because they have no plans to ever add it. Yet here we are with it being added.
The reason it's a needed change is a two-fold answer:

Yeah, they said they had no plans, but now they actually should give her SAP. That said, I don't think SAP will save her.

After ~170 games on my part, I finally put Roma down. She...just doesn't have it anymore. Her gunplay was always kind of janky, but with the way the meta has evolved she's straight up unfun now. They're going to have to help her gun handling soft stats and maybe give her some range and reload reduction too.

But you're right on her role, what little of it she had before (agile concealment battleship) kind of died when CVs got reworked. Now Roma just has nothing but 'best 15" AP at T8', which doesn't mean a whole lot when you have to go that deep into danger zones of engagement to use it in campy matches. I find Gascogne a lot more fun to actually play at this point.

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6 minutes ago, MnemonScarlet said:

Yeah, they said they had no plans, but now they actually should give her SAP. That said, I don't think SAP will save her.

After ~170 games on my part, I finally put Roma down. She...just doesn't have it anymore. Her gunplay was always kind of janky, but with the way the meta has evolved she's straight up unfun now. They're going to have to help her gun handling soft stats and maybe give her some range and reload reduction too.

But you're right on her role, what little of it she had before (agile concealment battleship) kind of died when CVs got reworked. Now Roma just has nothing but 'best 15" AP at T8', which doesn't mean a whole lot when you have to go that deep into danger zones of engagement to use it in campy matches. I find Gascogne a lot more fun to actually play at this point.

I don't think that it'd be SAP that would "save" the Roma, though it would be a very nice thing.  I think that what the Roma needs is more accurate guns.  It really blows to have rather inaccurate, trolly guns that due to their high penetration generate overpen hits like crazy.  There are ways to overcome the overpen issue, but the inaccuracy, not so much.

Actually, rethinking how good the cruiser SAP looked, SAP on the Roma might just be the ticket to put it back on the map.

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I don't think WG would add SAP to Roma.

 

Roma being the second....or the first Italian BB, she's like your avg BB. Look at Aigle for instance. It was the first French DD introduced and it's very different from French DD line.

 

But WG did rebalanced Le Terrible to fit the DD line so maybe you can expect SAP on Roma in the future

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What concerns me more is the situation with Abruzzi and Aosta. 

As of now they have lost all value as trainers; you must pick IFHE to make the HE work and this will be 4 points thrown in the trash considering the SAP/AP mainline cruisers will carry...

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I am all for buffing the Roma. She is a beautiful ship that I enjoy sailing, until I have to shot something and watch my shells just got everywhere except the target, or until I have to fight T9 and T10 knowing they will wreck me the moment they start shooting at me despite my angling. 
Its gotten to the point I don't take my Roma out to play because I'm tired of not being able to hit ships at any range while those ships can wreck me with seemingly no difficulty. 
But its not the first time WG has developed a ship for a given play style than severally nerf'd the ship to the point it can't even do the the thing they wanted it to do. Than we get stuck with a ship that isn't fun to play while WG say "the statistics look good". Maybe if we're lucky they will address the problems the ship has after a couple years of live play testing. 

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I heard someone mention buffing Roma and came running.  Yes, please.  I would love to see her have SAP ... well, once they figure out SAP and finish testing it. 

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While Roma is one of my favorites, she is definitely in need of some love.  Giving her SAP ammo would be historically accurate and a nice alternative to being unable to overmatch much of the armor she faces.  However I don't think just giving her SAP is quite enough to make her consistently rewarding to play.  I'm thinking maybe an 0.1 increase to Sigma and maybe a 20m reduction in max dispersion would be helpful.  In exchange she will need to give up 1-2km of max concealment.  I feel like this would make her perform well as a mid range fighter, which her armor scheme (in game) is better suited for.

All that said, I haven't checked recently but isn't Roma still performing very well statistically?

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Will SAP ships have 3 shell types to pick from OR will SAP replace HE or AP as an option?

Also, this is just for Italian ships, right?

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4 minutes ago, BruDog1970 said:

Will SAP ships have 3 shell types to pick from OR will SAP replace HE or AP as an option?

Also, this is just for Italian ships, right?

SAP replaces HE, and yes just for Italians.

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Roma needs big help, that is for damned sure. For too long this beautiful, iconic warship has been festering in inadequacy - a situation made unbelievably worse by the release of the Russian BBs (in the "middle range" category, there is almost nothing Vlad doesn't do worlds better than Roma [except turret rotation - but a good captain can more than compensate]. It's just embarrassing - I cannot justify even playing the Italian anymore).

I wish the devs would commit to action, but they seem content to just allow Roma to perpetually suck.

Edited by Battleship_Elisabeth
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Why is it that German, American And Italian BB's have the worst Shell Dispersion? Especially at tier 8 is what I'm speaking of. The Mass had the SAME guns as NC and Alabama yet her dispersion is worse.  In Reality, Bismarck and Tirpitz had very accurate guns. Roma Never fought in a Naval Battle but her sister did. When they fought the accuracy was pretty good as a front cover of time magazine shows. The picture is of British Cruisers with shell Splashes all around the from Italian BB's. Bismarck, Tirpitz and Roma just sit in port now wasting away. Funny how tier 8 and up Russian BB's that were Never built let alone tested have tight dispersion etc. Yet we all know who love history the Russian Navy when in battle struggled to hit anything.

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The ship did not have a turtleback design. WG has been inventive of their interpretation and declared it was for balancing. However as we have seen it was actually a test bed for Russian battleships. Oh well. We are seeing this repeated on Amalfi and Brindisi who have been gifted very tall citadels and the bonus of superwide citadels just to be safe.

WG's cruiser SAP implementation is not the SAP that is desired for Roma and battleships. An AP shell dialed to 7/10. Not a nominal pen/super alpha shell. If you can't reliably know where your rounds are going to land the current SAP is of no help.

WG is doubling down on the 90/50 being the suck. Despite only one historical, and suicidal, successful aerial torpedo strike out of hundreds.

Roma is just an RNG roll. At some point you will get your 100k, it just takes time. Fire 10 salvos and collect 100k. To increase lethality means something has to be given up. I'm fine with losing concealment. However it is rather apparent WG doesn't want to go through a total rebalance phase for Roma.

 

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Historically, SAP would be in line with Roma's actual armament. Gameplay wise, this ship is a POS and baaaaadly needs buffs.

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Aside from carriers, I don't remember WG ever changing a single ship like that. Would have to be a blanket change to all Italian BBs for it to happen. 

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On 8/5/2019 at 5:03 AM, LittleWhiteMouse said:

I heard someone mention buffing Roma and came running.  Yes, please.  I would love to see her have SAP ... well, once they figure out SAP and finish testing it. 

It means a lot to hear that from you! :cap_like::cap_win:

we got LWM on our side folks! :cap_haloween:

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On 8/5/2019 at 5:56 AM, BruDog1970 said:

Will SAP ships have 3 shell types to pick from OR will SAP replace HE or AP as an option?

Also, this is just for Italian ships, right?

Ships armed with SAP only get SAP and AP No HE

And yes as it stands currently it appears it will stay a only Italian thing.

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On 8/5/2019 at 5:53 AM, Uncle_Lou said:

All that said, I haven't checked recently but isn't Roma still performing very well statistically?

 

 

On 8/5/2019 at 12:23 AM, AlcatrazNC said:

I don't think WG would add SAP to Roma.

 

Roma being the second....or the first Italian BB, she's like your avg BB. Look at Aigle for instance. It was the first French DD introduced and it's very different from French DD line.

 

But WG did rebalanced Le Terrible to fit the DD line so maybe you can expect SAP on Roma in the future

It’s not just a rebalance or that she should be changed to match the line per se, the problem is that she’s currently one of the worst performing Tier VIII Premium battleships and is performing that way for all the reasons I stated prior, and is in a desperate need of something to make her unique or atleast on par with her peers since Vladivostok just does everything she can but better. And the same goes for a lot of her peers as well.

she just doesn’t fit and doesn’t work in her current state and it needs to be addressed.

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On 8/5/2019 at 9:12 AM, Sparviero said:

WG is doubling down on the 90/50 being the suck. Despite only one historical, and suicidal, successful aerial torpedo strike out of hundreds.

 

That honestly irks me too if I’m honest but knowing WG they’re more likely to change a shell type for a ship than admit they made a mistake with appropriately balancing a AA gun type incorrectly.

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I wouldn't mind seeing this, provided it can be balanced (BB SAP may not be balanced if it has the exact same properties as CL/CA SAP currently being tested).

But it's very hard to say whether it will happen. This could be the case where the "can't change premiums that have been sold for cash" cuts the other way. Otherwise that one crazy person who thinks HE Roma is the way to go is going to want their money back.

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