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Crokodone

Riga Marina Fuel Smoke and SAP

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Notser's description of the instant smoke mechanic feels a wee bit out of place. It should have a bloom time like ordinary smoke. A shorter pan Pan Asian cooldown would be much more befitting for both play and counter play against the RM cruisers.

Since they didn't have citadels, dds shouldn't take reduced damage from SAP as the munitions still suffer from saturation damage by thd sounds of it. 

Personally, SAP should be nade available to all Italian ships and aside the current reduced damage to DDs would make a stellar addition to the variety in the game.

Thoughts, opinions?

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Would love SAP on Roma but as they say they do not update premiums with new ammo because of balancing. It takes a long time to balance ballistics per ship and SAP only does 10% damage to dds. 

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25 minutes ago, Condor_Legion said:

Would love SAP on Roma but as they say they do not update premiums with new ammo because of balancing. It takes a long time to balance ballistics per ship and SAP only does 10% damage to dds. 

Yeah I even asked them during the stream and that was their response. The ships are already balanced the way they are so they wont. I however feel like they should. I'm not a huge fan of outliers because one of the primary purposes of the premium ships is to provide captian training.

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2 hours ago, Skuggsja said:

Yeah I even asked them during the stream and that was their response. The ships are already balanced the way they are so they wont. I however feel like they should. I'm not a huge fan of outliers because one of the primary purposes of the premium ships is to provide captian training.

That and the with the game constantly beong balanced with global changes and new abilities, it makes previous iterations of ships, particularly premiums grossly obsolete.

Most premiums that i can remember have had at least one significant factor updated ro them due to emerging changes to the game, such as:

1] Albany

2] Atlanta

3] Prinze Eugene 

4] Indianapolis 

5] Atago

6] Yubari

7] Katori

8] Kii?

9] Sims (twice)

I don't think there's a premium in game that hadn't recoeved a significant change in one form or annother. I'm pretty sure, WG will want to continue to profit off of Italian premium sales, and the absence in relevancy of Italian premiums without that fuel smoke and SAP,l really brings the profitability of obsolete but otherwise competitive premiums into serious question.

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3 hours ago, Skuggsja said:

Yeah I even asked them during the stream and that was their response. The ships are already balanced the way they are so they wont. I however feel like they should. I'm not a huge fan of outliers because one of the primary purposes of the premium ships is to provide captian training.

I agree.  It's annoying that they won't update premium ships that came out before a tech tree was released match the tech tree's national flavor/gimmicks.

 

5 hours ago, Crokodone said:

 

Notser's description of the instant smoke mechanic feels a wee bit out of place. It should have a bloom time like ordinary smoke. A shorter pan Pan Asian cooldown would be much more befitting for both play and counter play against the RM cruisers.

Since they didn't have citadels, dds shouldn't take reduced damage from SAP as the munitions still suffer from saturation damage by thd sounds of it. 

Personally, SAP should be nade available to all Italian ships and aside the current reduced damage to DDs would make a stellar addition to the variety in the game.

Thoughts, opinions?

For what it's worth, someone in another thread said that SAP was only used on RM BBs.  I presume that this was because cruiser AP wouldn't have had the penetration of BB AP, and thus didn't need a lower pen AP ammo.

As for SAP vs DDs, I don't know.  I tend to lean towards your position, in large part because otherwise what's the point of SAP in the first place.  The way that game is currently structured with AP and HE, HE serves 3 purposes.

1. To cause damage against highly angled targets that AP would just bounce.

2. To start fires.

3.  To be the go-to anti-DD ammo.

It seems like SAP can't fulfill any of these 3 purposes.  If it's just treated like AP, it'll bounce even more easily off well armored targets.  It won't start fires.  And if it only does 10% base damage vs DDs, it will only be marginally better than AP (since from what little I've seen, SAP does a little more base damage than AP).   Arguably, this would seem to make SAP nearly useless as an anti-DD ammo, and make it more of an anti-cruiser ammo.  And perhaps an anti-BB ammo, when fired from BB guns perhaps against lower tier BBs that you fear regular AP would overpen more than you'd like.

 

On the flip side, if SAP was allowed to act normally vs DDs, it might be utterly devastating, given that its base damage does exceed that of regular AP.

 

So, in the end, I don't know whether allowing SAP to act normally against DDs would be a good idea or not.

 

Edited by Crucis
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20 minutes ago, Crokodone said:

That and the with the game constantly beong balanced with global changes and new abilities, it makes previous iterations of ships, particularly premiums grossly obsolete.

Most premiums that i can remember have had at least one significant factor updated ro them due to emerging changes to the game, such as:

1] Albany

2] Atlanta

3] Prinze Eugene 

4] Indianapolis 

5] Atago

6] Yubari

7] Katori

8] Kii?

9] Sims (twice)

I don't think there's a premium in game that hadn't recoeved a significant change in one form or annother. I'm pretty sure, WG will want to continue to profit off of Italian premium sales, and the absence in relevancy of Italian premiums without that fuel smoke and SAP,l really brings the profitability of obsolete but otherwise competitive premiums into serious question.

The problem is that I don't think that any of those changes were "merely" to make the ship in question better fit its nation's national flavor.

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I watched the Notser ITA Cruiser preview (the general one, not the Zara one) vid late last night.  There was some stupid unlocking procedure for them on PTS, so he only previewed Tier  I-IV and VIII-X.

 

 

The range is pretty low on a number of guns.  Tier VIII 15.3km, Tier IX was around 15.7 or something like that.  The Tier X one was more reasonable.

Concealment is mediocre, worse than IJN & USN, around the region of German and RU Cruiser concealment.

Gun reload is mediocre, slower than typical IJN CAs.  The Tier X one has a very slow reload like in the ballpark of Super Cruisers but she has 203mm x15.

There's also a lot of tall, exposed Citadels here with mediocre armor.

The Zara video the OP linked to shows why the peculiar smoke these things have are supposed to offset issues with the ships.

 

IMO, these ships are catered to fight other Cruisers.   I think BBs will be happy to fight these Cruisers because they can tank SAP like they would AP attacks (these shells can be bounced like AP) and have no worries about Fires like they would with normal HE+Fire attacks.

 

SAP is also going to be poor against DDs.  Gunboat DDs will love ITA Tech Tree Cruisers.

 

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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5 hours ago, Crokodone said:

 

 

 

Notser's description of the instant smoke mechanic feels a wee bit out of place. It should have a bloom time like ordinary smoke. A shorter pan Pan Asian cooldown would be much more befitting for both play and counter play against the RM cruisers.

Since they didn't have citadels, dds shouldn't take reduced damage from SAP as the munitions still suffer from saturation damage by thd sounds of it. 

Personally, SAP should be nade available to all Italian ships and aside the current reduced damage to DDs would make a stellar addition to the variety in the game.

Thoughts, opinions?

1. In the correct hands SAP does seem a little OP. 

2. All ships should have different shell types to choose from in port. 

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These ships are cruiser assassins. Their best feature is their smoke. It allows to close or retreat very effectively. The torps of the T5 fire by 2s but reloaded quickly and had 10km range with meh damage but good for escapes or surprising chasers. The SAP rounds are pretty much only effective against cruisers and with them they are very effective. But if the ship is angled sharply, SAP is pretty much worthless. And BBs that aren’t angled suffer minimal damage due to reload duration. Keep in mind, this at T5. If higher tiers have more guns and/or better reloads, it could be better. Against same tier BBs for the T5 it was pathetic. And the two torp drop makes closing with smoke and torping unrealistic. DDs laugh off SAP. If they gave better AP rounds to hurt BBs, SAP could make sense but right now, besides the smoke, I am a tad disappointed.

Edited by KnifeInUrNeck

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I think the value of these ships will drop the higher in tier you go because there are fewer and fewer Cruisers and more and more Battleships.  Not saying you can't do well, but these things are clearly aimed to smash Cruisers, and if the Crusier population drops and BBs take over more, well...

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   The potential damage these things can get out on fresh targets per salvo using SAP is pretty heinous by the numbers. Like the TX is capable of just over 25k per salvo if I remember correctly with SAP and that's on anything 50mm or less if I recall. Imagine a scenario where you catch a flank where they are not looking and you open up and get two salvos off before they get their guns on you and then you hit smoke and get 2-3 more off as you run. That is some pretty nasty damage in a short time if you have a few fresh targets lined up and those targets include everything but some KM and RU ships. I think they will feed on anything but DDs reliably. I look forward to them at this point.

Edited by Alabamastan

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14 hours ago, Crucis said:

I agree.  It's annoying that they won't update premium ships that came out before a tech tree was released match the tech tree's national flavor/gimmicks.

 

For what it's worth, someone in another thread said that SAP was only used on RM BBs.  I presume that this was because cruiser AP wouldn't have had the penetration of BB AP, and thus didn't need a lower pen AP ammo.

As for SAP vs DDs, I don't know.  I tend to lean towards your position, in large part because otherwise what's the point of SAP in the first place.  The way that game is currently structured with AP and HE, HE serves 3 purposes.

1. To cause damage against highly angled targets that AP would just bounce.

2. To start fires.

3.  To be the go-to anti-DD ammo.

It seems like SAP can't fulfill any of these 3 purposes.  If it's just treated like AP, it'll bounce even more easily off well armored targets.  It won't start fires.  And if it only does 10% base damage vs DDs, it will only be marginally better than AP (since from what little I've seen, SAP does a little more base damage than AP).   Arguably, this would seem to make SAP nearly useless as an anti-DD ammo, and make it more of an anti-cruiser ammo.  And perhaps an anti-BB ammo, when fired from BB guns perhaps against lower tier BBs that you fear regular AP would overpen more than you'd like.

 

On the flip side, if SAP was allowed to act normally vs DDs, it might be utterly devastating, given that its base damage does exceed that of regular AP.

 

So, in the end, I don't know whether allowing SAP to act normally against DDs would be a good idea or not.

 

The SAP shell for cruisers is just Lesta playing with the instantaneous nose fused HE shell.  Ironically the Italian 203mm HE shell was the one HE shell that actually played decently with Lesta's HE mechanics. So it is a bit annoying that Lesta went all in on SAP and left the AP performance to slide off as the tiers go up. :Smile_veryhappy:

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Panzerknacker has a vid up as well. No commentaryI believe.

 

And I was trying to ignore it but is there anyway to fix that title? Sorry.

 

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Fuel smoke is alright, kinda cool, but the SAP is still weird. Never needed on cruisers, and the fact that RM cruisers had good HE, and never used SAP is odd, and only was used by the BBs.

 

The fact that RM cruisers will have significant trouble against DDs is a little concerning.

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17 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Concealment is mediocre, worse than IJN & USN, around the region of German and RU Cruiser concealment.

Gun reload is mediocre, slower than typical IJN CAs.  The Tier X one has a very slow reload like in the ballpark of Super Cruisers but she has 203mm x15.

There's also a lot of tall, exposed Citadels here with mediocre armor.

IMO, these ships are catered to fight other Cruisers.   I think BBs will be happy to fight these Cruisers because they can tank SAP like they would AP attacks (these shells can be bounced like AP) and have no worries about Fires like they would with normal HE+Fire attacks.

Full concealment build on the Tier 10 is around 12.4 which isn't bad at all for it's size.

Gun Reload is probably going to need to be buffed. As those are ridiculous... (17.3 seconds with reload mod on tier 10)

The large bows are the crappy part, but the side armor is actually very good. These cruiser will be pretty tanky when angled, just bait people to shoot at over-matchable areas then swing the belt in the way. Kind of like old Movska did before she was given her Stalinium bow...

Depends on what they do with SAP or the pen angles/fuse times on the AP. Positioning and being an assassin similar to how Buffalo plays will be key...

DD's will be a threat but with 15 guns at tier 10 a full volley of ap will still hurt. The lower tiers could be problematic... Kind of Ironic considering one of the strong suites of the D'osta and Abruzzi is smashing DD's.

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On 8/4/2019 at 11:03 AM, Doomlock said:

Fuel smoke is alright, kinda cool, but the SAP is still weird. Never needed on cruisers, and the fact that RM cruisers had good HE, and never used SAP is odd, and only was used by the BBs.

 

The fact that RM cruisers will have significant trouble against DDs is a little concerning.

Especially when they have no radar or hydro of any kind at any tier. I don't know about you bit this sounds very handicapped.

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On 8/4/2019 at 6:34 AM, KilljoyCutter said:

Because we can't have a new line of ships without a new gimmick or five...

 

How do you differentiate lines to merit people playing them if they're too similar to each other?

 

For example, if I have Tier X in IJN, USN, RU Cruiser Lines.  If there was nothing special about RN CLs, German Cruisers, French Cruisers, and soon ITA Cruisers, why would I play them?  If there's nothing special to these lines compared to what I already have with USN, IJN, RU Cruisers, why would I bother with them?

 

Another example:  If I have Tier X in IJN & USN BBs, why would I work up another BB Line that plays just like them, without any differing qualities?

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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21 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

How do you differentiate lines to merit people playing them if they're too similar to each other?

 

For example, if I have Tier X in IJN, USN, RU Cruiser Lines.  If there was nothing special about RN CLs, German Cruisers, French Cruisers, and soon ITA Cruisers, why would I play them?  If there's nothing special to these lines compared to what I already have with USN, IJN, RU Cruisers, why would I bother with them?

 

Another example:  If I have Tier X in IJN & USN BBs, why would I work up another BB Line that plays just like them, without any differing qualities?

Maybe I'm weird, but I don't need huge differences to motivate me to try out ships and keep the ones I like, and sometimes the gimmicks turn me off from ships (see, RN CLs... or the goofy reload booster that French cruisers pay for with an otherwise lackluster reload).

 

Edited by KilljoyCutter
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