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Anij

Submarines & Random thoughts

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So should submarines be in the game. Yes!

However they cannot be in random, Clan or other wise. Submarines need to have their own dedicated space and here's why.

WW2 submarines did mot of their fighting on the surface. They couldn't stay submerged for long and more importantly they were really really slow.

My suggestion for submarines is they have their own dedicated space

Submarines would be divided in to 3 CLOSED TIERS. A closed tier means submarines from that tier cannot play in tiers outside of their tier range

Tier 1-3-WW1 submarines'

Tier 4--6 WW2 Submarines

Tier 7-10- Cold war Submarines

However its implemented I think putting submarines in randoms or clan is a terrible idea unless your planning to give them 20 knot speeds and unlimited underwater duration

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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So submarines only play against each other? So, what's the point?

Im against subs in the game pretty much in any iteration than we have already seen them

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For me it is Subs as full tech tree lines in all modes like any other line.

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Unfortunately, WG WILL try in vain to shoehorn the subs into the standard game where they will be almost  impossible to balance vs the existing surface ships. They certainly can be fun, like in the special scenarios playing as the subs (where their speeds were 3X anything achievable IRL), but not so much trying to play against them. At the very least they would make play very static since you would have no idea whether there is a sub waiting for you up a head, so why risk it.

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28 minutes ago, Anij said:

So should submarines be in the game. Yes!

However they cannot be in random, Clan or other wise. Submarines need to have their own dedicated space and here's why.

WW2 submarines did mot of their fighting on the surface. They couldn't stay submerged for long and more importantly they were really really slow.

My suggestion for submarines is they have their own dedicated space

Submarines would be divided in to 3 CLOSED TIERS. A closed tier means submarines from that tier cannot play in tiers outside of their tier range

Tier 1-3-WW1 submarines'

Tier 4--6 WW2 Submarines

Tier 7-10- Cold war Submarines

However its implemented I think putting submarines in randoms or clan is a terrible idea unless your planning to give them 20 knot speeds and unlimited underwater duration

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you are going at this from a historical perspective, (which never works out in this game), this is a fail.

There has only be one case in which a submarine intentionally sunk another submarine while submerged in warfare.  Ever.   The U-864 was sunk by HMS Venturer.

If you mean to just have them shoot at each other on the surface, that is just normal world of warships.

In addition, the cold war era ended in 1991. There are still cold war era submarines in service.  Many that have been decommissioned carried guided missiles. They would be completely out of place in this game.

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16 minutes ago, paradat said:

For me it is Subs as full tech tree lines in all modes like any other line.

it wont work unless they put your team subs behind the enemy team they are historically just too slow and they are not going to give them a 21 knot speed of the slowest us bbs. The only way this can work is if your team subs are behind the enemy team and they are really dead meat at that point because everyone will know where they are. They need there own dedicated space on really small maps.

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20 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

Unfortunately, WG WILL try in vain to shoehorn the subs into the standard game where they will be almost  impossible to balance vs the existing surface ships. They certainly can be fun, like in the special scenarios playing as the subs (where their speeds were 3X anything achievable IRL), but not so much trying to play against them. At the very least they would make play very static since you would have no idea whether there is a sub waiting for you up a head, so why risk it.

I think they will try it but there will have to be a condition that we as the players will have to demand

Submarines will have NO EFFECT ON capping. Submarines can prevent caps but they cannot cap by themselves. For a submarine to cap there must be at least 1 friendly surface ship in the cap.

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The "escort the convoy" mode WG is testing sounds like an ideal place to start with subs... while I'm not sure submarines can be fitted into the current game modes (i'm not against them trying), I think they could have their own game mode.

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2 minutes ago, Anij said:

it wont work unless they put your team subs behind the enemy team they are historically just too slow and they are not going to give them a 21 knot speed of the slowest us bbs. The only way this can work is if your team subs are behind the enemy team and they are really dead meat at that point because everyone will know where they are. They need there own dedicated space on really small maps.

Well good thing you are not in charge of the design then.

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19 minutes ago, Burnsy said:

If you are going at this from a historical perspective, (which never works out in this game), this is a fail.

There has only be one case in which a submarine intentionally sunk another submarine while submerged in warfare.  Ever.   The U-864 was sunk by HMS Venturer.

If you mean to just have them shoot at each other on the surface, that is just normal world of warships.

In addition, there are still cold war era submarines in service.  Many that have been decommissioned still carried guided missiles. They would be completely out of place in this game.

well that's y a dedicated space can be given to subs. Its a niche class and they need there own space. Worst case scenario is WG will force cold war subs into the game into a WW2 ship game to get around the speed issue

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8 minutes ago, Anij said:

it wont work unless they put your team subs behind the enemy team they are historically just too slow and they are not going to give them a 21 knot speed of the slowest us bbs. The only way this can work is if your team subs are behind the enemy team and they are really dead meat at that point because everyone will know where they are. They need there own dedicated space on really small maps.

It's a video game.  WG can make them move as fast or as slow as they wish.

If you are talking about realism, BBs would need about an hour to start moving forward in a match from the start.

This game is not a simulator.  They will do whatever they want.

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3 minutes ago, paradat said:

Well good thing you are not in charge of the design then.

sorry dude..keep dreaming WG will NEVER give subs 21knot speed underwater. You will be lucky if they give the a 18 knot surface speed

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9 minutes ago, Anij said:

well that's y a dedicated space can be given to subs. Its a niche class and they need there own space. Worst case scenario is WG will force cold war subs into the game into a WW2 ship game to get around the speed issue

There are no plans to put cold war anything into the game.

I don't work for WG but they just spent a whole lot of time trying to remove the "specialness" of CVs, to put them in to every single game mode.  I am very sure that their intention is not to create another "one off" and special situation only class in their game. 

I am sure that their intention is to put subs in every game mode.

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9 minutes ago, Burnsy said:

It's a video game.  WG can make them move as fast or as slow as they wish.

If you are talking about realism, BBs would need about an hour to start moving forward in a match from the start.

This game is not a simulator.

the bb speeds are very well simulated. The assumptions are the boilers are hot and the ship can raise steam and from that point of view WG has a solid model. See USS Nevada during Pearl Harbour. Her boilers were hot and she raised steam and nearly made it to the channel before grounding herself due to damage suffered and to prevent the channel from being blocked

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Just now, Anij said:

sorry dude..keep dreaming WG will NEVER give subs 21knot speed underwater. You will be lucky if they give the a 18 knot surface speed

I will make my judgements on the meta of Subs after WG releases them not before. lol

I have my guesses on how they will do it but that is irrelevant.

We really do not have to answer the question of how WG will do it.

We only need to make our best guess on if they will do it.

We know that WG has always wanted to.

They could not make them work. 

They said if they came up with a way (and some tech improvements) they would try again.

Well guess what?..... they are trying again.

So will they or won't they?

I think WG is going to do it.

 

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6 minutes ago, Anij said:

the bb speeds are very well simulated. The assumptions are the boilers are hot and the ship can raise steam and from that point of view WG has a solid model. See USS Nevada during Pearl Harbour. Her boilers were hot and she raised steam and nearly made it to the channel before grounding herself

The point is, this is not a simulator.  There are about a million things "wrong" if you look at this game from the perspective of history.  If WG wants to put subs into every game mode (I do believe that is their goal), they are not going to let realism stop them, as they shouldn't.

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40 minutes ago, Anij said:

So should submarines be in the game. Yes!

However they cannot be in random, Clan or other wise. Submarines need to have their own dedicated space and here's why.

WW2 submarines did mot of their fighting on the surface. They couldn't stay submerged for long and more importantly they were really really slow.

My suggestion for submarines is they have their own dedicated space

Submarines would be divided in to 3 CLOSED TIERS. A closed tier means submarines from that tier cannot play in tiers outside of their tier range

Tier 1-3-WW1 submarines'

Tier 4--6 WW2 Submarines

Tier 7-10- Cold war Submarines

However its implemented I think putting submarines in randoms or clan is a terrible idea unless your planning to give them 20 knot speeds and unlimited underwater duration

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

First I’m just gonna get this out of the way, when wargaming created world of warships, they promised not to put any vessels made after 1955. Cold War subs would break that. 2nd I think subs should be implemented as a type of ship just like and other. But there would be a consumable call  hydroacoustic search that detects submarines and torpedoes but no ships and would replace the current and hydro would be changed to the name sonar ping. Being passive and active sonar. 

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'the other game' does subs really well. 

Subs have 3 depths: Surface, Periscope and Deep. 

Subs are, compared to surface ships, SLOW on the surface and super slow when submerged. We're talking 25kn tops when surfaced, less than14kn when under the water. 

 

Spotting ranges:

Subs have rather bad spotting ranges. About 8km tops when periscope or surface. When it dives deep it only detects out to 2km. This applies to visual detection.  

However, when submerged they can still spot minimap contacts out to 10km. 

 

Subs can be spotted by ships at different ranges. When surfaced they get spotted around 4km. When periscope they get spotted at 1km. Deep they are invisible unless active sonar is used. 

The range at which the sub can be spotted increases depending on its speed. 

 

Destroyers carry depth charges and those can be set to 4 different depths (press # key to select depth charge, the aim view pops up, moving mouse up or down selects depth, left/right selects spread of charges). 

 

Sub torpedoes are limited ammo. Each sub carries about 30 and are fired one by one. They can only be fired from surface or periscope depth. Like the depth charges, the aim view of the torpedoes is left/right to aim left or right from front or aft aspect of sub while up/down selects the running depth. 

 

Subs have batteries. They deplete when submerged based on how fast the sub's engine is set to. Batteries recharge when on the surface. 

Finally, subs get no enemy minimap updates unless they are surfaced. 

 

In this game, subs could be limited to two per side and be spawned far forward on the map. 

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51 minutes ago, Anij said:

So should submarines be in the game. Yes!

:cap_horn:No!

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Just now, paradat said:

Yes :cap_yes:

:cap_cool:

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Subs could be added to current scenarios on both sides with DDs on both sides ASW equipped. They could also be in special scenarios such as a convoy ambush both bot and human controlled. Humans operating the subs vs AI operated convoy or AI operated subs vs Human controlled ASW with AI or Human controlled convoy ships or both sides human controlled.. They could also be used against escorted BBs/CVs passing through a narrow area such as on Solomon's Island map or Two Brothers channel. Both sides could be AI or Human controlled or both Human controlled. 

But in the current all surface fleet battles I think they wouldn't fit. Although they could be used in an optional random or co op mode with no limit on subs per side. Players selecting that mode could be placed in an all surface ship on one team and all subs on the other or any mix of subs and surface ships.

There is no need to be close minded about this. 

The only objection I have is that they function realistically and not using Halloween Gimmicks.

I see no reason they couldn't be controlled realistically like in Aces of the Deep and Silent Hunter. 

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1 hour ago, paradat said:

For me it is Subs as full tech tree lines in all modes like any other line.

Then expect a train wreck that will make the CV rework look like it came off without a hitch. Balancing them will be impossible, they will either be stupidly overpowered or stupidly underpowered, they will never find the happy medium.

 

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The Halloween event had imaginary underwater destroyers, not submarines.  Might as well add UFO's.

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