Jump to content
You need to play a total of 20 battles to post in this section.
Snargfargle

Revenge of the CV

27 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

7,887
[PSP]
[PSP]
Members
12,655 posts

The DDs spotted me, the Montana got me, but I had my revenge for all the times I'd been sunk by DDs!

image.thumb.png.ae5f2317d4be4fddc96283c2cef0be33.png

 

  • Cool 10
  • Boring 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
690
[NGA]
Members
1,985 posts
11,768 battles

Of course this highlights the issue with all these AA buffs that have been going around. Combined with reducing the attack potential of aircraft, it's a much more effective exchange to go for destroyers, who already have issues that can be exploited by CVs. The fundamental problem with aircraft vs surface ships is that there's now a much greater imbalance when it comes to target selection.

In the old days, each type of ship had their own counter to air attack. Battleships had their sheer weight of AA firepower along with large hitpoint pools and various defenses to minimize damage (torp defense, thick armor plating, etc). Cruisers (except for the Brits who got smoke) were able to use Defensive AA that not only increased their firepower, but also "scattered" an incoming attacking. And destroyers had their evasion and concealment. While DDs could, and often would suffer do to the lack of more direct countermeasures, they required a CV player to give greater focus to the task of hunting them (with perhaps the exception of Saipan's DB squadron). Considering how a CV desperately needed to multi-task, this need to focus attacked as a psychological deterrent. And there was always the threat of enemy fighters showing up.

However under the new system, destroyers become almost a necessary prey. Cruisers have pretty much fallen by the wayside as the most effective AA platform, due to the current system simply emphasizing number of guns (seriously, I ran some calculations and found that only Def AA on US heavy cruisers gave them an edge over US BBs, without it, their AA values are only slightly more than half that of US BBs and even then, there were some situations where US BBs were more effective in the AA role). This means that both battleships and cruisers can wreck havoc on the single attacking squadron. However, now that CV players don't need to multi-task near as much and the threat of fighters has been greatly reduced, they have much greater freedom to hunt destroyers.

What needs to be done is to achieve a greater degree of anti-aircraft effectiveness among the three types of ships again. I honestly can't blame DD mains for being sick of dealing with CVs when they already have so much other things they need to deal with (low hit rates on "OP" torpedoes, radar, etc.) We should be seeing CVs prey upon BBs and CLs/CAs just as much as they do DDs, but the current mechanics make it difficult, if not impossible.

  • Cool 4
  • Boring 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,872 posts
17 hours ago, JediMasterDraco said:

Of course this highlights the issue with all these AA buffs that have been going around. Combined with reducing the attack potential of aircraft, it's a much more effective exchange to go for destroyers, who already have issues that can be exploited by CVs. The fundamental problem with aircraft vs surface ships is that there's now a much greater imbalance when it comes to target selection.

In the old days, each type of ship had their own counter to air attack. Battleships had their sheer weight of AA firepower along with large hitpoint pools and various defenses to minimize damage (torp defense, thick armor plating, etc). Cruisers (except for the Brits who got smoke) were able to use Defensive AA that not only increased their firepower, but also "scattered" an incoming attacking. And destroyers had their evasion and concealment. While DDs could, and often would suffer do to the lack of more direct countermeasures, they required a CV player to give greater focus to the task of hunting them (with perhaps the exception of Saipan's DB squadron). Considering how a CV desperately needed to multi-task, this need to focus attacked as a psychological deterrent. And there was always the threat of enemy fighters showing up.

However under the new system, destroyers become almost a necessary prey. Cruisers have pretty much fallen by the wayside as the most effective AA platform, due to the current system simply emphasizing number of guns (seriously, I ran some calculations and found that only Def AA on US heavy cruisers gave them an edge over US BBs, without it, their AA values are only slightly more than half that of US BBs and even then, there were some situations where US BBs were more effective in the AA role). This means that both battleships and cruisers can wreck havoc on the single attacking squadron. However, now that CV players don't need to multi-task near as much and the threat of fighters has been greatly reduced, they have much greater freedom to hunt destroyers.

What needs to be done is to achieve a greater degree of anti-aircraft effectiveness among the three types of ships again. I honestly can't blame DD mains for being sick of dealing with CVs when they already have so much other things they need to deal with (low hit rates on "OP" torpedoes, radar, etc.) We should be seeing CVs prey upon BBs and CLs/CAs just as much as they do DDs, but the current mechanics make it difficult, if not impossible.

Cause and effect.

1) WG makes the AA of BBs and CL's so overpowered that CV's have to go for DD's just to contribute anything. That's a symptom of a greater problem. Nerf BB AA, and now the CV's have an option.

2) BB's are not supposed to have powerful AA traditionally speaking. They are supposed to be the  prey of a CV. Rock, paper, scissors. They have a massive HP pool with the ability to repair, and the CV torps do a fraction of the damage of DD torps. It can take 10-20 CV torps and 15 minutes of gameplay just to sink one BB. Not to mention the whole BB class has become far too overpopulated in game. BB's must have a natural predator.

3) CL's are kinda pointless now (again) ! The BB's and DD's have AA so powerful they are no longer required to cooperate with a CL for AA cover, like in the old days. Quite frankly, I'm amazed the OP was able to sink a Kidd. Those DD's have insane AA! :)

4) To fix the current balance problems, the Holy Trinity of "Rock, Paper, Scissors" needs to be restored to WoWs. Its not a good thing when every ship class can equally counter any other ship class. It kinda defeats the purpose of "Class based" games...

Edited by ElectroVeeDub
  • Cool 1
  • Boring 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
7,307 posts
3,304 battles
14 minutes ago, ElectroVeeDub said:

To fix the current balance problems, the Holy Trinity of "Rock, Paper, Scissors"

By your argument, CVs need to be removed because they upset the trinity of the 3 other classes. BBs to counter CAs, CAs to counter DDs, DDs to outcap and pester BBs and CVs to screw the balance up.

Edited by 10T0nHammer
  • Funny 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,872 posts
21 minutes ago, 10T0nHammer said:

By your argument, CVs need to be removed because they upset the trinity of the 3 other classes. BBs to counter CAs, CAs to counter DDs, DDs to outcap and pester BBs and CVs to screw the balance up.

No... they fit in just fine... you're assuming "Rock,Paper, Scissors" has only 3 ship types and isn't just a metaphor people understand...

1) BB trumps CL/CA.

2) CL/CA trumps DD

3) DD trumps CV and to a degree BB. Not so much anymore though.

4) CV trumps BB

5) See #1 and rinse, repeat.

 

CV's are an anti-capital platform in real-life, and in game. Or they were...

The "pecking order" of classes is a staple to ALL class based shooters, from Call of Duty, to Battlefield, to WoT, to even WoWs. Dozens of developers haven't been designing their games like that for decades because they have no idea what they're doing.

WoWs has suffered a degradation of what it's classes roles are. Now we got BB's shooting down planes and blapping DD's!? CV's torping DD's? DD's citadel-ing the crap out of CL's? And CL's... humping islands with no clear purpose?! To fix the balance, fix the "pecking order".

Edited by ElectroVeeDub

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
7,307 posts
3,304 battles
28 minutes ago, ElectroVeeDub said:

DD trumps CV

See, this is why I cannot take you seriously. This is spoken like someone who doesn't play high tiers or DDs outside of maybe T4-6. In order for a DD to "counter" a CV, the DD would need to be ineffective the entire match by removing their vision control and counter spotting for almost the entire game only to sneak up behind a CV, only to be rocket planed to death before you get within 10km.

Pecking order is also messed up. CVs counter BBs, DDs and CAs outside of AA specific ships.

CVs do screw up the balance because CVs make DDs ineffectual by taking up the mantle of spotting while keeping the alpha strike power of CAs (it used to be BBs). One ship has already replaced two and it took as much skill as pressing WASD. If a BB overextends and gets focused by several HE slinging CAs, that BB tends to typically die. If a DD screws up and gets radared, that ship typically dies. If a CA isn't constantly WASD'ing, then it gets blapped by BBs. If a CV screws up and flies into dense AA fields, it smashes F to save as many planes as it can or simply U-turns out. They can rebuild the 1-3 planes lost while the next strike goes out and farms damage, meanwhile, the other ships have been removed from play.

If this game is chess (a better comparison than rock, paper, scissors) then CV is the slingshot that flings pieces off the board from across the room.

Edit: And before you say "just play CVs and you'll know!"

shot-19_07.26_02_00.44-0012.thumb.jpg.9a6ed60b334ea05ab8f0299bcaba2f76.jpg

75k damage in a T10 game with a supposedly dead T8 CV. You can feel free to peruse my stats as well, I have nothing to hide by making them private.

Edited by 10T0nHammer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
943
[WOLF6]
Members
1,849 posts
5,553 battles
43 minutes ago, 10T0nHammer said:

By your argument, CVs need to be removed because they upset the trinity of the 3 other classes. BBs to counter CAs, CAs to counter DDs, DDs to outcap and pester BBs and CVs to screw the balance up.

There really is no such thing as a hard and fast class as they vary greatly in strengths/weaknesses from nation to nation and tier to tier....almost ship to ship. Even carriers with their loadouts have targets with which they are weak and strong against. The Enterprise for example is better at targeting lighter ships with its superior attack aircraft (and anything with a thick deck with its AP bombers) whereas Kaga struggles against faster ships and prefers targets of the capital class with torps. 

Edited by Sumseaman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,872 posts
58 minutes ago, 10T0nHammer said:

See, this is why I cannot take you seriously. This is spoken like someone who doesn't play high tiers or DDs outside of maybe T4-6. In order for a DD to "counter" a CV, the DD would need to be ineffective the entire match by removing their vision control and counter spotting for almost the entire game only to sneak up behind a CV, only to be rocket planed to death before you get within 10km.

Pecking order is also messed up. CVs counter BBs, DDs and CAs outside of AA specific ships.

CVs do screw up the balance because CVs make DDs ineffectual by taking up the mantle of spotting while keeping the alpha strike power of CAs (it used to be BBs). One ship has already replaced two and it took as much skill as pressing WASD. If a BB overextends and gets focused by several HE slinging CAs, that BB tends to typically die. If a DD screws up and gets radared, that ship typically dies. If a CA isn't constantly WASD'ing, then it gets blapped by BBs. If a CV screws up and flies into dense AA fields, it smashes F to save as many planes as it can or simply U-turns out. They can rebuild the 1-3 planes lost while the next strike goes out and farms damage, meanwhile, the other ships have been removed from play.

If this game is chess (a better comparison than rock, paper, scissors) then CV is the slingshot that flings pieces off the board from across the room.

Edit: And before you say "just play CVs and you'll know!"

shot-19_07.26_02_00.44-0012.thumb.jpg.9a6ed60b334ea05ab8f0299bcaba2f76.jpg

75k damage in a T10 game with a supposedly dead T8 CV. You can feel free to peruse my stats as well, I have nothing to hide by making them private.

I have almost every single T10 DD in game, save the French.

If you don't think a DD can kill a CV very easily, I seriously question your experience with either class. Yes... if a DD gets withing spotting distance of a CV, the CV typically dies first. The damage the CV does to a DD is very low and can take a very long time to execute. The fact that the DD is spotted is of no consequence especially in the latter half of the game. Everything can be balanced. Only salty haters believe otherwise.

When I catch a CV in a DD "with it's pants down", it's nothing short of a feeding frenzy. The planes tickle!

Just play CV's and DD's you'll know. :)

Riddle me this... WoWs has 3 emblems in game that in order to acquire, a player must average damage ranging from 71,000 to 130,000 over 100 gamesfor all emblems.... yet the average damage is 39,000 at T8? Why do the emblems exist if CV's are NOT under-performing at T8 and T10 with an average damage level of far less than 130,000?

That game you posted above? It's considered below average even by the game-client itself. Yet you think it's an amazing round and just fine?

wows 3.png

Edited by ElectroVeeDub

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,123
[CVA16]
Members
5,391 posts
16,219 battles
1 hour ago, ElectroVeeDub said:

To fix the current balance problems, the Holy Trinity of "Rock, Paper, Scissors" needs to be restored to WoWs. Its not a good thing when every ship class can equally counter any other ship class. It kinda defeats the purpose of "Class based" games...

CVs were never part of the RPS system.  Only ships with DFAA active or very strong base AA gave them much problem. Everything else, regardless of type, was just prey of varying degrees of difficulty. Flash forward to today and the current AA/low alpha meta has meant they are primarily a counter to (most) DDs. Still largely outside the RPS system, but that has been blurred over the years anyway. One difference is that CVs are almost prohibited from attacking other CVs. Every other ship type out there has to have a plan in pocket to deal with other ships of the same type, not just their supposed counter or preferred prey.

Edited by Sabot_100

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,872 posts
18 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

CVs were never part of the RPS system.  Only ships with DFAA active or very strong base AA gave them much problem. Everything else, regardless of type, was just prey of varying degrees of difficulty. Flash forward to today and the current AA/low alpha meta has meant they are primarily a counter to (most) DDs. Still largely outside the RPS system, but that has been blurred over the years anyway. One difference is that CVs are almost prohibited from attacking other CVs. Every other ship type out there has to have a plan in pocket to deal with other ships of the same type, not just their supposed counter and preferred prey.

They were never "part" of that system prior because every CV player was forced to kill the enemy CV player first, which took 10 or more minutes. Otherwise, if they ignored the enemy CV,  torp bombers were enroute. The CV's literally spent the entire match just trying to kill eachother. That's why you never noticed them even when they were in game. All they did was strafe eachother. :)

Which means the CV player wasn't assisting his team.

Which is why WarGaming did the CV re-work in the first place. It was a far more broken system before than it is now. Now CV's contribute to their team. And people whine over the change because they remember a day when CV's only killed CV's.

Cause and effect.

Edited by ElectroVeeDub

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,123
[CVA16]
Members
5,391 posts
16,219 battles
1 hour ago, ElectroVeeDub said:

They were never "part" of that system prior because every CV player was forced to kill the enemy CV player first, which took 10 or more minutes. Otherwise, if they ignored the enemy CV,  torp bombers were enroute. The CV's literally spent the entire match just trying to kill eachother. That's why you never noticed them even when they were in game. All they did was strafe eachother. :)

My memory is a bit different.  Not a CV player but: I remember some CV on CV action/sniping  but more often both CVs happily going after non-CV targets the whole game, and every iteration in between. Friendly fighters did strafe and protect the fleet, or were sent to perma-spot DDs. 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,872 posts
28 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

My memory is a bit different.  Not a CV player but: I remember some CV on CV action/sniping  but more often both CVs happily going after non-CV targets the whole game, and every iteration in between. Friendly fighters did strafe and protect the fleet, or were sent to perma-spot DDs. 

I had T8 CV's before the rework. Not many games played in a CV total, maybe 300. I was a DD main mostly. I stopped playing in 2016 because they were just anti-CV platforms mostly.

Yup. Before the rework what would almost always happen is that each CV on each team would attempt to sneak torpedo bombers allllll the way back to the enemy CV and sink it. And the match was basically just 2 CV's fighting each-other. The other ships weren't a priority. It was rare that a CV wouldn't priority a CV...

That's because if they didn't kill the enemy CV they were not able to attack other ships. The red CV must die first to proceed. If the enemy CV died, then it was a feeding frenzy for the remaining CV.

Nobody remembers because they didn't notice unless they played CV's and other classes before 8.0 . And that's why they're whining now.

Conveniently selective memory loss.

CV's are a much greater asset to a team even now than before .

Edited by ElectroVeeDub
  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
249
[DAS]
Members
971 posts
8,163 battles
3 hours ago, ElectroVeeDub said:

If you don't think a DD can kill a CV very easily, I seriously question your experience with either class. Yes... if a DD gets withing spotting distance of a CV, the CV typically dies first. The damage the CV does to a DD is very low and can take a very long time to execute. The fact that the DD is spotted is of no consequence especially in the latter half of the game. Everything can be balanced. Only salty haters believe otherwise.

The only time it is easy for a DD to kill a high tier CV is somewhat late game when the CV has nowhere to run. If the CV can you run away from you, you will basically never catch it (maybe some Russian and now French DDs can). The CV will attack you and you will have to waste time avoiding incoming weapons. Hitting with torpedoes becomes  nearly impossible when the CV is sailing away from you. Also, when you are spotted, the rest of the red team tends to start shooting at you, making your death even faster.

If you are dealing with a less experienced CV player, you can probably kill him/her fairly easily, or as stated earlier, if the CV is corned with nowhere to run. Also, CVs can do a ton of damage to DDs. I have tried losing half of my health in ONE rocket attack when playing my Gearing. It doesn't always happen, but if the CV player is good, you tend to die fast unless you use your smoke and turn off your AA.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,123
[CVA16]
Members
5,391 posts
16,219 battles
1 hour ago, ElectroVeeDub said:

CV's are a much greater asset to a team even now than before .

Only in that if the other team has one, your team needs one too. Most players are perfectly happy to get into match with no CVs (unless they have heavily specced into AA)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,872 posts
23 minutes ago, epojokke said:

The only time it is easy for a DD to kill a high tier CV is somewhat late game when the CV has nowhere to run. If the CV can you run away from you, you will basically never catch it (maybe some Russian and now French DDs can). The CV will attack you and you will have to waste time avoiding incoming weapons. Hitting with torpedoes becomes  nearly impossible when the CV is sailing away from you. Also, when you are spotted, the rest of the red team tends to start shooting at you, making your death even faster.

If you are dealing with a less experienced CV player, you can probably kill him/her fairly easily, or as stated earlier, if the CV is corned with nowhere to run. Also, CVs can do a ton of damage to DDs. I have tried losing half of my health in ONE rocket attack when playing my Gearing. It doesn't always happen, but if the CV player is good, you tend to die fast unless you use your smoke and turn off your AA.

Why is it easier late game and not early game for a DD to kill a CV?

Is the CV actually doing a metric s#$T ton of damage to the DD? Or... more realistically... is it because the CV's buddies are curb-stomping the DD while it's spotted because it got too greedy?

You yourself basically just admitted that if it was you ... versus a CV, 1 vs 1? End game? No allies? You'd win vs a CV in your DD.

You sorta just told us all that: "I'd kill the CV in my DD, unless his team was able to focus fire me..." .  That is a picture perfect definition of "Convenient memory loss", "sugar coating it", and "warping the truth".

That's my point. If you're in a DD and you die to a solo CV that's only 10kms away...?

Time to rage quit. Fail stuff is fail. I have zero problems killing a CV in a DD. I dodge probably 75% or more of the CV's attacks in a destroyer...

 

Edited by ElectroVeeDub
  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
249
[DAS]
Members
971 posts
8,163 battles
4 minutes ago, ElectroVeeDub said:

Why is it easier late game and not early game for a DD to kill a CV?

Is the CV actually doing a metric s#$T ton of damage to the DD? Or... more realistically... is it because the CV's buddies are curb-stomping the DD while it's spotted because it got too greedy?

You yourself basically just admitted that if it was you ... versus a CV, 1 vs 1? End game? No allies? You'd win vs a CV in your DD.

That's my point. If you're in a DD and you die to a solo CV that's only 10kms away...?

Time to rage quit. Fail stuff is fail. I have zero problems killing a CV in a DD.

Late game there are less red ships to shoot at you. If your team is winning the CV might be running. Going for the red CV early on means that you don't get to do anything other than maybe spot (you could try torpedoes but there is a risk that the enemy team will say something about a DD on the flank).

In a true 1 vs 1, my money is on the CV.

10 km away is far away when many torps even at high tiers can't hit more than 10-12 km away. Okay so you have guns, fine, but you will most likely be sailing towards him, meaning that you can only use the forward facing guns. Also, let's not forget that CVs have a lot of HP and killing one will take a long time, time you don't have when you are under rocket/bomb attack.

Last thoughts: I haven't played that many high tier games recently, but I don't remember a single time a DD went for the CV early on or even late game. Most games tend to end before the CV is even dead. Most of the time it seems to be battleships or maybe cruisers that get to kill the CV because they have range to do so when the CV is finally spotted. If it were as easy as you are saying, I think we(I) would see this done more often.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,872 posts
19 minutes ago, epojokke said:

Late game there are less red ships to shoot at you. If your team is winning the CV might be running. Going for the red CV early on means that you don't get to do anything other than maybe spot (you could try torpedoes but there is a risk that the enemy team will say something about a DD on the flank).

In a true 1 vs 1, my money is on the CV.

10 km away is far away when many torps even at high tiers can't hit more than 10-12 km away. Okay so you have guns, fine, but you will most likely be sailing towards him, meaning that you can only use the forward facing guns. Also, let's not forget that CVs have a lot of HP and killing one will take a long time, time you don't have when you are under rocket/bomb attack.

Last thoughts: I haven't played that many high tier games recently, but I don't remember a single time a DD went for the CV early on or even late game. Most games tend to end before the CV is even dead. Most of the time it seems to be battleships or maybe cruisers that get to kill the CV because they have range to do so when the CV is finally spotted. If it were as easy as you are saying, I think we(I) would see this done more often.

Most of the time's I've ever died in a CV it was a result of citadel shots from BB's sniping and/or the DD keeping me spotted doing citadel shots or HE fires as well. The IJN DD's can be very dangerous because the CV can't see them until 6kms away, then the CV takes 1 minute to eve notice...

I've rarely killed a DD in a CV before he could kill me.

I've rarely died to a CV while in my DD.

What this boils down to is who's keeping who spotted, and who has better back-up.

My money's on the DD. Especially if its a RN or IJN CV. USN CV's? Yeah watch out for the rockets...:)

 

Edited by ElectroVeeDub
  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
7,307 posts
3,304 battles
16 hours ago, ElectroVeeDub said:

Riddle me this... WoWs has 3 emblems in game that in order to acquire, a player must average damage ranging from 71,000 to 130,000 over 100 gamesfor all emblems.... yet the average damage is 39,000 at T8? Why do the emblems exist if CV's are NOT under-performing at T8 and T10 with an average damage level of far less than 130,000?

 

 

wows 3.png

Your own emblem shows you average 39k, something you yourself say that is below average. That badge is greyed out and shows that you're average 39k in T8,10 CVs, not the class as a whole. The class averages are as follows since 8.5:

10 Audacious 51.56 2390 1854 76613 70030
  Hakuryu 49.77 5207 1746 73047 67637
  Midway 48.58 10483 1659 66696 64300
8 Enterprise 53.77 5982 1690 52748 47731
  Saipan 53.04 1278 1536 50055 47663
  Kaga 50.31 2098 1477 49388 47457
  Graf Zeppelin 50.27 2686 1452 47763 46582
  Shokaku 48.79 7237 1443 46899 46324
  Lexington 48.32 17024 1375 45920 44368
  Implacable 48.08 5178 1443 45437 46039

I guarantee you're not the hotshot player you are in your head. Especially when you average less than the crappiest CV in the game.

 

Quote

That game you posted above? It's considered below average even by the game-client itself. Yet you think it's an amazing round and just fine?

Sigh and here we go with the usual goal posts shifts. I'm not the one claiming that CVs are dead because AA is too strong. You get evidence that it is simply not true and you're reply is to change the argument from "AA to strong" to "Your damage is mediocre." 79k damage is above server averages post 8.5. In A T10 game. When you claim AA is too powerful. In a CV.

Quote

If you don't think a DD can kill a CV very easily, I seriously question your experience with either class. Yes... if a DD gets withing spotting distance of a CV, the CV typically dies first. The damage the CV does to a DD is very low and can take a very long time to execute. The fact that the DD is spotted is of no consequence especially in the latter half of the game. Everything can be balanced. Only salty haters believe otherwise.

This only solidifies the fact that you do not know what you are talking about. When it comes to game play mechanics, I'm going to have to just dismiss everything you say.

 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
249
[DAS]
Members
971 posts
8,163 battles
14 hours ago, ElectroVeeDub said:

Most of the time's I've ever died in a CV it was a result of citadel shots from BB's sniping and/or the DD keeping me spotted doing citadel shots or HE fires as well. The IJN DD's can be very dangerous because the CV can't see them until 6kms away, then the CV takes 1 minute to eve notice...

I've rarely killed a DD in a CV before he could kill me.

I've rarely died to a CV while in my DD.

What this boils down to is who's keeping who spotted, and who has better back-up.

My money's on the DD. Especially if its a RN or IJN CV. USN CV's? Yeah watch out for the rockets...:)

You may not be able to "see" them but you should know you have been spotted long before that, unless you didn't pick that skill. When you get spotted you can also more or less guess where the DD is coming from based on which side of the map is open or last know location for the DD most likely to be coming your way. It is not a 100% thing but good CV players can probably make it a 90% thing.

I completely agree that the winner is the one with the best back-up.

I have this replay that illustrates the problems I'm talking about:

I was on low health before I found the CV so I wasn't expecting to survive long but given my position on the map, I felt it would take too long to go for any of the other ships.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,872 posts
3 hours ago, 10T0nHammer said:

Your own emblem shows you average 39k, something you yourself say that is below average. That badge is greyed out and shows that you're average 39k in T8,10 CVs, not the class as a whole. The class averages are as follows since 8.5:

 

10 Audacious 51.56 2390 1854 76613 70030
  Hakuryu 49.77 5207 1746 73047 67637
  Midway 48.58 10483 1659 66696 64300
8 Enterprise 53.77 5982 1690 52748 47731
  Saipan 53.04 1278 1536 50055 47663
  Kaga 50.31 2098 1477 49388 47457
  Graf Zeppelin 50.27 2686 1452 47763 46582
  Shokaku 48.79 7237 1443 46899 46324
  Lexington 48.32 17024 1375 45920 44368
  Implacable 48.08 5178 1443 45437 46039

I guarantee you're not the hotshot player you are in your head. Especially when you average less than the crappiest CV in the game.

 

Sigh and here we go with the usual goal posts shifts. I'm not the one claiming that CVs are dead because AA is too strong. You get evidence that it is simply not true and you're reply is to change the argument from "AA to strong" to "Your damage is mediocre." 79k damage is above server averages post 8.5. In A T10 game. When you claim AA is too powerful. In a CV.

This only solidifies the fact that you do not know what you are talking about. When it comes to game play mechanics, I'm going to have to just dismiss everything you say.

 

Time for face-palms...

Dude... you just linked a table that clearly shows all T8 carriers are indeed far under what the game client and WG considers to be a good average game of 84,000 damage. My average of 39,000 is pretty close to average!

You still have not answered me why those emblems suggest 84,000 damage is good for T8, yet you're here swearing up and down that 40,000 to 50,000 is good according to your silly spreadsheet?

 

If you are correct, then why do those emblems exist?

Simple answers are simple. T8 CV's are under-performing even by your own admission of "averages since 8.5". You're just sugar-coating it for the sake of bias. :)

Edited by ElectroVeeDub
  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
312
[KOHAI]
Members
1,694 posts
5,535 battles
16 hours ago, ElectroVeeDub said:

Why is it easier late game and not early game for a DD to kill a CV?

Is the CV actually doing a metric s#$T ton of damage to the DD? Or... more realistically... is it because the CV's buddies are curb-stomping the DD while it's spotted because it got too greedy?

You yourself basically just admitted that if it was you ... versus a CV, 1 vs 1? End game? No allies? You'd win vs a CV in your DD.

You sorta just told us all that: "I'd kill the CV in my DD, unless his team was able to focus fire me..." .  That is a picture perfect definition of "Convenient memory loss", "sugar coating it", and "warping the truth".

That's my point. If you're in a DD and you die to a solo CV that's only 10kms away...?

Time to rage quit. Fail stuff is fail. I have zero problems killing a CV in a DD. I dodge probably 75% or more of the CV's attacks in a destroyer...

 

As a CV player both before and after the rework, a solo DD is very, very tasty. Before the rework I farmed nearly a hundred devstrike medals by cross dropping destroyers, delicious. After the rework, I've made it my mission to hunt down DDs at the start of the match. 10-30,000 damage is the typical amount I deal to DDs, and BBs and CAs are usually ignored until the very end, they aren't worth it because my alpha damage is so pathetic. It's so easy, to the point of being trivial to hunt down any ingame DD and kill it, unless they are inside their team's AA bubble. However, that's really the key, once inside that AA, they're effectively immune from my aircraft, as attack aircraft are pretty fragile. 

You stated 36k as below average, fair enough, my Shokaku does 56k avg, and that's my first post-rework CV. These ships are very much more powerful then you give them credit for. Granted, they're harder then farming with an 18pt DD captain at tier 8, but they're still incredibly good ships, with little to balance them besides the rare AA ship and their very low alpha.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
322
[SIMP]
Members
1,301 posts
10,775 battles
21 hours ago, ElectroVeeDub said:

1) BB trumps CL/CA.

2) CL/CA trumps DD

3) DD trumps CV and to a degree BB. Not so much anymore though.

4) CV trumps BB / CA / CL / DD / Spotting

Just a slight adjustment

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
5,413 posts
3,213 battles
On 7/31/2019 at 11:11 PM, JediMasterDraco said:

Of course this highlights the issue with all these AA buffs that have been going around. Combined with reducing the attack potential of aircraft, it's a much more effective exchange to go for destroyers, who already have issues that can be exploited by CVs. The fundamental problem with aircraft vs surface ships is that there's now a much greater imbalance when it comes to target selection.

In the old days, each type of ship had their own counter to air attack. Battleships had their sheer weight of AA firepower along with large hitpoint pools and various defenses to minimize damage (torp defense, thick armor plating, etc). Cruisers (except for the Brits who got smoke) were able to use Defensive AA that not only increased their firepower, but also "scattered" an incoming attacking. And destroyers had their evasion and concealment. While DDs could, and often would suffer do to the lack of more direct countermeasures, they required a CV player to give greater focus to the task of hunting them (with perhaps the exception of Saipan's DB squadron). Considering how a CV desperately needed to multi-task, this need to focus attacked as a psychological deterrent. And there was always the threat of enemy fighters showing up.

However under the new system, destroyers become almost a necessary prey. Cruisers have pretty much fallen by the wayside as the most effective AA platform, due to the current system simply emphasizing number of guns (seriously, I ran some calculations and found that only Def AA on US heavy cruisers gave them an edge over US BBs, without it, their AA values are only slightly more than half that of US BBs and even then, there were some situations where US BBs were more effective in the AA role). This means that both battleships and cruisers can wreck havoc on the single attacking squadron. However, now that CV players don't need to multi-task near as much and the threat of fighters has been greatly reduced, they have much greater freedom to hunt destroyers.

What needs to be done is to achieve a greater degree of anti-aircraft effectiveness among the three types of ships again. I honestly can't blame DD mains for being sick of dealing with CVs when they already have so much other things they need to deal with (low hit rates on "OP" torpedoes, radar, etc.) We should be seeing CVs prey upon BBs and CLs/CAs just as much as they do DDs, but the current mechanics make it difficult, if not impossible.

Nothing countered CVs back in the day, I don't know what you're talking about. A skilled player in a CV (especially a tier IX or X CV) was essentially unbeatable by anyone but a better CV player. The whole "multitasking" aspect is overemphasized, it wasn't that hard. This is how CVs used to be, with several points still holding true today:

  • AA never mattered unless you were a Minotaur, DM, or Wooster as the was fire never enough to stop a strike from same tier aircraft. And at tier X and with Saipan planes were basically just one peg down from invincible.
  • DF was the only effective way to counter strikes, which could be easily baited and waited out, not to mention even if successfully used another strike would be back before your cool-down was over.
  • DDs were immediately made useless as one fighter squad could just shadow them for the entire game, spotting them. And they can't dodge Japanese double torpedo bomber, and US dive bombers were so OP it was just point and click for half your health. (they also spotted your torpedoes too)
  • BBs also got shafted as they were simply too immaneuverable to dodge the strikes of an ever remotely competent CV player. Was super easy to just go in and bait DamCon with bomber fires, and them hit them with flooding, or vice versa.
  • They stagnated gameplay as DDs couldn't approach caps, and no one wanted to venture forth for fear of incurring the wrath of the almighty CV.
  • Games would usually quite literally become about who had the better CVs, they have so much more impact on the game than any other ship.

They're just not fun to have in the game. A ship class that gets to hide behind islands and launch endless successive strikes on you as no risk to themselves isn't fun. They ruin any semblance of balance among classes by being the counter to everything. The thing that ended traditional surface naval combat doesn't belong in a game about surface naval combat. DDs will always be the most vulnerable to CVs, that's never going to change. The simple fact is that they have far less AA power than any other class of ship. The notion that CVs will ever be a balanced and not just incredibly frustrating and unfun is just wishful thinking, they're inherently unbalanced and plain bad for the game.

Edited by goldeagle1123
  • Cool 1
  • Boring 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
5,413 posts
3,213 battles
40 minutes ago, ElectroVeeDub said:

Time for face-palms...

Dude... you just linked a table that clearly shows all T8 carriers are indeed far under what the game client and WG considers to be a good average game of 84,000 damage. My average of 39,000 is pretty close to average!

You still have not answered me why those emblems suggest 84,000 damage is good for T8, yet you're here swearing up and down that 40,000 to 50,000 is good according to your silly spreadsheet?

 

If you are correct, then why do those emblems exist?

Simple answers are simple. T8 CV's are under-performing even by your own admission of "averages since 8.5". You're just sugar-coating it for the sake of bias. :)

Good, they should be. A ship class that gets to hide at the back of the map behind islands, and launch endless waves of planes that ignore the mechanics of the game and gets to spot you at will while the ship itself is not at risk, all while having a massive HP pool, armored decks, immunity to fires, and being as fast as a destroyer should not be putting up numbers that compare to any other normal ship.

  • Boring 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×