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BarronRichthofen

Remove CV's from Co-Op UNLESS a Player CV is present.

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Title says it all.  Let me explain, Just had a co-op match with only 2 real players. Me in an Amagi, and another in a Mino.  The enemy bot's wrecked our bot's save the CV.  So me and the mino had an uphill battle. the Mino died about 1/4 of the way into the match, so I solo'ed the bots, Killed all but the CV, and of course it was sitting in the back out of gun range. Enemy bot's capped 2 points and being in a BB I could not cap in time to prevent loss, or kill the CV because it was well out of range. So battle was lost. If no CV may have won, bot (save CV) close and engage. If the bot CV had this behaviour i could have killed it in time to win. I do not think giving CV bot's the behaviour is a good Ideal. so alternative is no CV Bot's unless a Player CV is present.

 

 

Edited by BarronRichthofen
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They don't show up in every match and it makes it viable to get plane kills in co-op again. I just wish those bot CV's would actually scout particularly at the end.

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Just now, BrushWolf said:

They don't show up in every match and it makes it viable to get plane kills in co-op again. I just wish those bot CV's would actually scout particularly at the end.

They are pretty good at things like cruisers, BBs, and CVs.

DDs not so much.

As long as the red and green CV are on the same skill level, I'm fine with it.

I don't want a tuned up red CV, and a green CV dumb as a box of hair.

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TBH I'd rather not see them unless a player CV is there. The bot's are not all that hard they are kinda single minded ( close and kill)  but when you add the CV element into a co-op match with both CV's as bot's it changes the dynamic of the game. If I had been in a DD or a CA it might have been different, I could have counter capped. But with a CV (and lets be honest bot CV's suck just as bad as Bot BB,CA,DD) it makes a situation where you don't necessarily know even where to head to find it. I'm not worried about he bot CV capping or TBH even killing me, it's the exact situation I ran into that needs a fix. The only realistic fix I can see is to ban bot CV's from a match unless there is a player CV present.

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I welcome being able to shoot down more planes... it's mainly just annoying when the bot CV (realistically!) runs to A1 and draws out the game.

 

Edited by pikohan
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Honestly, this was the same issue co-op had before the rework, so I don't see it being fixed. That said, if you ever need plane kills, bot CVs will be missed.

8 minutes ago, BarronRichthofen said:

TBH I'd rather not see them unless a player CV is there. The bot's are not all that hard they are kinda single minded ( close and kill)  but when you add the CV element into a co-op match with both CV's as bot's it changes the dynamic of the game. If I had been in a DD or a CA it might have been different, I could have counter capped. But with a CV (and lets be honest bot CV's suck just as bad as Bot BB,CA,DD) it makes a situation where you don't necessarily know even where to head to find it. I'm not worried about he bot CV capping or TBH even killing me, it's the exact situation I ran into that needs a fix. The only realistic fix I can see is to ban bot CV's from a match unless there is a player CV present.

Funnily enough, this could make radio location a meta co-op only player skill! :Smile_veryhappy: Personally, I just pay attention to where they come from. They tend to make a bee line by that point, player or AI. I'm guilty of this as well, in fact.

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14 minutes ago, Shoggoth_pinup said:

Honestly, this was the same issue co-op had before the rework, so I don't see it being fixed. That said, if you ever need plane kills, bot CVs will be missed.

Funnily enough, this could make radio location a meta co-op only player skill! :Smile_veryhappy: Personally, I just pay attention to where they come from. They tend to make a bee line by that point, player or AI. I'm guilty of this as well, in fact.

That is why I try to keep on the move making sniping a bit harder.

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I enjoy having the flying toasters back again in PVE, leave em be.

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I can agree with you, no bot CV on the human team, that's all.  Not asking to eliminate CVs from coop, just that it be matched with a human CV player.

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19 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

That is why I try to keep on the move making sniping a bit harder.

Same. One time the reds ignored me the whole game as I dipped 'far' into our side of the map. We were overrun, so it made sense to do it... I just wasn't expecting them to ignore my "I'm barely outside of detection" rate of attack. :Smile_veryhappy:

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I personally want them to keep it as is. For every game where it comes down to bot CV vs bot CV that you might lose there are a ton of games where the planes down and XP earned are a big help. IT really isn't much different than the old CV's when it was bot vs bot. IF they deplaned each other they just sailed in circles.

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I like them being in the game, makes the abrupt ending of the game due to the mercy rule a little less likely and also the AA going off adds to the atmosphere of the game.

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I would much rather have a bot carrier in the game versus a bot BB, they are far less dangerous. Carriers are just silly now, I ignore the incoming planes as nothing more than a distraction, even in a DD. The only thing I don't like about them is the FPS drop you get when the planes are "spawning" and AA graphics are going off. The attacks themselves are pathetic. None of my ships are AA focused any more and I am killing planes and rarely taking damage. Human carrier players in co-op almost always are scoring at the bottom of the heap. This could be due to players learning how to use them in PvE, not sure. I like them in the game too because I am competing with them for damage against the bots. They seem to do much less than anyone else in the matches except for the slow BBs. 

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I got 70 in my North Carolina yesterday, bot carrier took a dislike to me and sent every wave after me, I think I got hit once.

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2 hours ago, Taylor3006 said:

I would much rather have a bot carrier in the game versus a bot BB, they are far less dangerous. Carriers are just silly now, I ignore the incoming planes as nothing more than a distraction, even in a DD. The only thing I don't like about them is the FPS drop you get when the planes are "spawning" and AA graphics are going off. The attacks themselves are pathetic. None of my ships are AA focused any more and I am killing planes and rarely taking damage. Human carrier players in co-op almost always are scoring at the bottom of the heap. This could be due to players learning how to use them in PvE, not sure. I like them in the game too because I am competing with them for damage against the bots. They seem to do much less than anyone else in the matches except for the slow BBs. 

While the consistently low BaseXP ranking of CVs in Co-op may have to do with players learning to play, it's also because Post-CV Rework Carriers don't have the alpha strike damage that the original RTS CVs had.

Kaga, Taiho, Hakuryu in the RTS CV days attacking with 12 simultaneous torpedoes, whether from a cross drop or all in one direction, could rack up a lot of damage.  VII Kaga was nasty enough in Randoms where their players would go right up to a VII Ranger and nuke Ranger in one attack run, no playing around with Floods / Fires, just killing it with raw damage.

RTS Midway configured for AP Dive Bombers sending 2 squads of 6 plane TBs each, with 2 squads of 6-7 plane AP Dive Bombers each, at the same time.  Even an AA Spec Des Moines had to be very worried.

Enterprise could do the same thing as Midway also with the AP DBs since there is no need to play Flood / Fire mechanics since AP bombs don't land Fires.

 

But the Post-CV Rework Carriers don't have that power.  It takes them a long time to build up damage in Co-op because:

1.  AA gets worn away as the games get longer.

2.  Flood / Fire effects take a while to start piling up.

3.  The bots get spread out more as the game goes on and the nasty, early game overlapping AA mostly dissipates.

4.  Since the bombers don't do such high damage like they did in the RTS days, it takes them a while to pile up damage.

That's why you see CVs regularly be at the bottom, or middling performance at best in a typical 3-5 minute Co-op game.  Only if it's one of those really abnormally long games, that's when the CV has the chance to shine in Co-op.  In the typically short Co-op games, it's easy to do better with any ship than a CV.

 

The funny part with the return of bot CVs to Co-op, the player CV has a hard time dealing good damage to the bot CV because of the game's system of Super CV Repair Party and repeatedly launching Fighter consumables for the CV.  The bot CV is really a pinata for the regular surface ships to hit and get money / ribbons / XPs while the player CV hardly can do anything to it.

 

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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6 hours ago, BarronRichthofen said:

Title says it all.  Let me explain, Just had a co-op match with only 2 real players. Me in an Amagi, and another in a Mino.  The enemy bot's wrecked our bot's save the CV.  So me and the mino had an uphill battle. the Mino died about 1/4 of the way into the match, so I solo'ed the bots, Killed all but the CV, and of course it was sitting in the back out of gun range. Enemy bot's capped 2 points and being in a BB I could not cap in time to prevent loss, or kill the CV because it was well out of range. So battle was lost. If no CV may have won, bot (save CV) close and engage. If the bot CV had this behaviour i could have killed it in time to win. I do not think giving CV bot's the behaviour is a good Ideal. so alternative is no CV Bot's unless a Player CV is present.

 

 

The bot CVs are just as good as most real people playing CVs.

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25 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

While the consistently low BaseXP ranking of CVs in Co-op may have to do with players learning to play, it's also because Post-CV Rework Carriers don't have the alpha strike damage that the original RTS CVs had.

I was trying to be nice. Yeah the reason I don't bother with CVs any more is they don't do much damage in the short amount of time that PvE matches are known for. 

 

25 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

The funny part with the return of bot CVs to Co-op, the player CV has a hard time dealing good damage to the bot CV because of the game's system of Super CV Repair Party and repeatedly launching Fighter consumables for the CV.  The bot CV is really a pinata for the regular surface ships to hit and get money / ribbons / XPs while the player CV hardly can do anything to it.

The removal of carrier versus carrier play was the single biggest fail of the rework IMHO. I don't care for the whole "flying planes around" bit anyway but could have gotten used to it because I loved CVs. Not being able to stop incoming red aircraft was what convinced me to totally bail on carriers completely. The only carrier I kept post rework was the Langley because I didn't see a need of dumping millions of ship XP on the tier 1 Erie. I made that mistake with Hosho. Since I had so much xp on Langley, I unlocked the tier 6 CV and still have enough to unlock the tier 5 CV when it is introduced. I also have some free UK carriers I got from some event. Since I have plenty of port slots, I keep them to farm the Snowflakes or occasionally use them to farm spotting ribbons. I really don't see any more use of them than that any longer. Oddly enough, they are not even much good in the spotting role any more either. I find Leningrad far more capable. 

Edited by Taylor3006

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14 hours ago, Taylor3006 said:

I would much rather have a bot carrier in the game versus a bot BB, they are far less dangerous. Carriers are just silly now, I ignore the incoming planes as nothing more than a distraction, even in a DD. The only thing I don't like about them is the FPS drop you get when the planes are "spawning" and AA graphics are going off. The attacks themselves are pathetic. None of my ships are AA focused any more and I am killing planes and rarely taking damage. Human carrier players in co-op almost always are scoring at the bottom of the heap. This could be due to players learning how to use them in PvE, not sure. I like them in the game too because I am competing with them for damage against the bots. They seem to do much less than anyone else in the matches except for the slow BBs. 

Low damage per strike (I mean LOW) and the fact the AA just shreds the planes makes it really hard in the average Co-op game with the new CV's. If the game extends out, giving you some time, and you are careful with your planes, you can do pretty good. 

Don't even get me started on the economy of CV's. OMG does it suck! I really hope at some point they plan to address that in this rebork rework. :Smile_facepalm:

The one thing I worried about with CV's coming back to Co-op was that WG would not do the right thing and allow for free respec of Capt's and free module swaps for ships as they did for the PVP folks. I was right of course that they didn't. I mean we are Co-op players and don't matter.

I had swapped all my AA built ships to other things during the Free "PVP" periods because it made no sense to have it for Co-op when it would be months without CV's.  So when CV's finally came back like 6-7 months later, and WG didn't give us a free period, I had concerns.

But as it turns out AA builds are not needed at least right now as they have AA cranked so high just base building Capt's and ships for it is not needed. That and the fact that 50%+ of the time the bot planes don't even drop on you if they get through your AA...:Smile_sceptic:                                                                                                                                                        

Edited by AdmiralThunder
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