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HorrorRoach

WGing vs Beached whales (Frozen wallets)

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Seriously, if they want us to regrind everything multiple times for ships, or spend a ton of money to fast track it, like we all have brand new accounts.... Rewrite the game with a much improved graphics and physics engine.  I'll gladly sign up and start over from SCRATCH. There's something cheesey about playing at T6 and lower, i'm not going to do that again. I'm also not going to blow a bunch of money on a half finished game again. You ruined tons of us, you know.

They're banking on unbeaching the whales, to push us back into the water ( into spending currency). One thing that beaches whales is getting ripped off on crates... That transcends the CV rework for sure. Stop that. Make a completely new game that doesn't feel half finished, that looks way better and isn't buggy...I'll spend 1-2,000 again easily.

Also, do not even think about slapping a new graphics engine on the current WOWS, i won't bite... 

EJ

Edited by HorrorRoach
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17 minutes ago, HorrorRoach said:

Make a completely new game that doesn't feel half finished, that looks way better and isn't buggy

The only way they get a penny out of me at this point is a Single Player game. Not even CoOp. Single. Player. Preferably with a Mission/Map Editor/Support for custom Missions. And judging from what information is out there over whose-who is a whale based on per-month spending (Whales in the industry are typically $35-$40 USD per month) I was a super whale as I budget at least $120 USD (£100) per month for gaming and would, in some months, spend all of that on WoWs alone, and I haven't spent a dime since the end of April.

Edited by _RC1138
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ive been playing new ftp accounts so lets see that huge grind to get to tier 7 on the most recent . did not run camo or flags but it did have some premium time included when you first start.

4 battles at tier 2

6 battles at tier 3 

9 battles at tier 4

18 battles at tier 5

38 battles at tier 6

Thats a drop in the bucket compared to the average total battles played i see here 

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Not a race. You can do it for free and have a crap ton of fun doing it. 

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46 minutes ago, _RC1138 said:

The only way they get a penny out of me at this point is a Single Player game. Not even CoOp. Single. Player. Preferably with a Mission/Map Editor/Support for custom Missions. And judging from what information is out there over whose-who is a whale based on per-month spending (Whales in the industry are typically $35-$40 USD per month) I was a super whale as I budget at least $120 USD (£100) per month for gaming and would, in some months, spend all of that on WoWs alone, and I haven't spent a dime since the end of April.

Me too, i was in the 50$ a month plus a premium ship here and there... Plus 200$ each christmas. Not anymore, not till the money starts spurring core game development.

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1 minute ago, paradat said:

Not a race. You can do it for free and have a crap ton of fun doing it. 

Gameplay under tier 6 is cheesey because of the out of date graphics engine. Something about it just feels off, that's why experienced players don't hangout under tier 8.

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2 minutes ago, HorrorRoach said:

Gameplay under tier 6 is cheesey because of the out of date graphics engine. Something about it just feels off, that's why experienced players don't hangout under tier 8.

Maybe for you. I have fun at all tiers. Also as others have mentioned not really going to be in low tiers very long anyway. So.... yeah there is no down side and it is completely optional. 

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38 minutes ago, HorrorRoach said:

Gameplay under tier 6 is cheesey because of the out of date graphics engine. Something about it just feels off, that's why experienced players don't hangout under tier 8.

The graphics look just fine to me.  I've seen the "improved graphics" in WoT, and while they're impressive to look at, the reality is that the shiny newness wears off after a tiny handful of games and it's back to paying attention to the combat, not the sightseeing.

Edited by Crucis
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44 minutes ago, HorrorRoach said:

Gameplay under tier 6 is cheesey because of the out of date graphics engine. Something about it just feels off, that's why experienced players don't hangout under tier 8.

People don't play much below tier 8 because WG puts all events and rewards at T8+ including campaigns, Steel Snowflakes/French Flowers, ranked, clan battles, and monthly events... then acts surprised that people don't spend more time in lower tiers.

It's a level of ignorance that is so mindbogglingly detached from basic understanding of cause-and-effect that it can only be intentional.

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10 minutes ago, KiyoSenkan said:

It's a level of ignorance that is so mindbogglingly detached from basic understanding of cause-and-effect that it can only be intentional.

Something something Soviet Russia joke here. 

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8 minutes ago, KiyoSenkan said:

People don't play much below tier 8 because WG puts all events and rewards at T8+ including campaigns, Steel Snowflakes/French Flowers, ranked, clan battles, and monthly events... then acts surprised that people don't spend more time in lower tiers.

It's a level of ignorance that is so mindbogglingly detached from basic understanding of cause-and-effect that it can only be intentional.

I think there's more to it than that; there are plenty of events biased towards the higher tiers for sure, but there's also key advantages of the higher tiers that make them better hide-outs, especially for people who get into the nitty gritty of how this game works. For one, Tier 9 and Tier 10 are the tiers that can NEVER be bottomed tiered (other than Tier 1) and that made/makes them very attractive after your umpteenth time getting stomped on in a T8 New Orleans. Also said ships have the most assets to bring to bear; the most variety of cooldowns (some of the T10's mount 4 or more), have full access to all upgrade slots (and slot 6 is literally game changing for some ships, allowing some to swing between two WILDLY different playstyles), and some key 'abilities' are only valid on the T10's (and some T9's) such as Yamato/Musashi's overmatch, Worcester/Mino RoF, Shima's unparalleled Torp output, Khab's unrivaled tanki-ness, Conqs let-the-world burn ability, ect. And likewise, there are just plain MORE interesting ships at T9 and T10; T9 has Iowa, Fletcher, Missouri (for those that have it), Lion, Jutland, Alsace, Roon, T10's got Zao, Yamato, DM, Worcester, Mino, Montana, Gearing, you get the picture. Surely there are other tiers with interesting ships, but combining all these factors makes T10/T9 VERY attractive.

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3 minutes ago, _RC1138 said:

I think there's more to it than that; there are plenty of events biased towards the higher tiers for sure, but there's also key advantages of the higher tiers that make them better hide-outs, especially for people who get into the nitty gritty of how this game works. For one, Tier 9 and Tier 10 are the tiers that can NEVER be bottomed tiered (other than Tier 1) and that made/makes them very attractive after your umpteenth time getting stomped on in a T8 New Orleans. Also said ships have the most assets to bring to bear; the most variety of cooldowns (some of the T10's mount 4 or more), have full access to all upgrade slots (and slot 6 is literally game changing for some ships, allowing some to swing between two WILDLY different playstyles), and some key 'abilities' are only valid on the T10's (and some T9's) such as Yamato/Musashi's overmatch, Worcester/Mino RoF, Shima's unparalleled Torp output, Khab's unrivaled tanki-ness, Conqs let-the-world burn ability, ect. And likewise, there are just plain MORE interesting ships at T9 and T10; T9 has Iowa, Fletcher, Missouri (for those that have it), Lion, Jutland, Alsace, Roon, T10's got Zao, Yamato, DM, Worcester, Mino, Montana, Gearing, you get the picture. Surely there are other tiers with interesting ships, but combining all these factors makes T10/T9 VERY attractive.

And yet all of this makes T10's gameplay the most sloggish, boring, punitive affair in all of online gaming. Hence all the incentives to push people into playing it. Hence the economic changes that make it so only the most potato of potatoes lose money playing T10. Hence all the events hosted in it. Hence Clan Wars being T10 until just this season. Hence WG's obsession with T10 Ranked the last several seasons. The gameplay sucks so much that they feel a need to convince people that the terrible experience is worth it.

Edited by KiyoSenkan
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2 hours ago, HorrorRoach said:

Seriously, if they want us to regrind everything multiple times for ships, or spend a ton of money to fast track it, like we all have brand new accounts.... Rewrite the game with a much improved graphics and physics engine.  I'll gladly sign up and start over from SCRATCH. There's something cheesey about playing at T6 and lower, i'm not going to do that again. I'm also not going to blow a bunch of money on a half finished game again. You ruined tons of us, you know.

They're banking on unbeaching the whales, to push us back into the water ( into spending currency). One thing that beaches whales is getting ripped off on crates... That transcends the CV rework for sure. Stop that. Make a completely new game that doesn't feel half finished, that looks way better and isn't buggy...I'll spend 1-2,000 again easily.

Also, do not even think about slapping a new graphics engine on the current WOWS, i won't bite... 

EJ

Or you know, spend the millions of FXP some players have. 

Relax, it's an option, not a commandment.

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Higher tiers also earn more experience, which makes sense because experience costs also scale up. The problem comes with missions and tasks that are based on earning set amounts of experience. Those with a set bar like 1 million xp are cleared faster with high tier ships, and Naval Battle bars past 1200 are extremely difficult while playing mid tiers and impossible for low tiers.

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5 minutes ago, KiyoSenkan said:

And yet all of this makes T10's gameplay the most sloggish, boring, punitive affair in all of online gaming.

Well then I ask, what's worse? Slogging, skittish gameplay predicated more on what not to do, than what TO do, or being blamped by all angles because this or that class looked at you funny in a T8? Or being stomped 2/3's of the time at T5/T6 by T7/T8's due to huge disparities in gameplay mechanics and wall that new players hit where the mechanics go from a true arcade shooter to the beginning of the slog you mention? I don't personally like either, and have stopped playing as a result, but I would and did strongly feel that the T10 was 'better,' with the clear caveat that better =/= good.

2 minutes ago, Kizarvexis said:

Or you know, spend the millions of FXP some players have. 

Relax, it's an option, not a commandment.


The entire games' business model is built upon FOMO; are you surprised that it extends to this one as well?

Edited by _RC1138

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3 minutes ago, _RC1138 said:

Well then I ask, what's worse? Slogging, skittish gameplay predicated more on what not to do, than what TO do, or being blamped by all angles because this or that class looked at you funny in a T8? Or being stomped 2/3's of the time at T5/T6 by T7/T8's due to huge disparities in gameplay mechanics and wall that new players hit where the mechanics go from a true arcade shooter to the beginning of the slog you mention? I don't personally like either, and have stopped playing as a result, but I would and did strongly feel that the T10 was 'better,' with the clear caveat that better =/= good.


The entire games' business model is built upon FOMO; are you surprised that it extends to this one as well?

FOMO? I don't recognize that acronym. 

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16 minutes ago, Kizarvexis said:

FOMO? I don't recognize that acronym. 

A brief search turns up "Fear Of Missing Out".

That's not going to work on anyone with a cool head and even the slightest hint of self-awareness.

23 minutes ago, Kizarvexis said:

Relax, it's an option, not a commandment.

Gotta have the latest fashion or you're just not one of us, y'know? :cap_cool:  (/sarc)

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Okay, a common theory here is that WG is targeting two groups of people:  1.) people who are sitting on multiple millions of points of free XP, trying to get them to spend them regrinding lines, as opposed to just sitting on them, and 2.) to get some people to spend actual cash to convert the millions of otherwise unusable regular XP attached to ships that are either tier X, or lower tier, but with the next ship up the line already researched.  Okay, number 2.) makes a bit of sense.  But I don't get why they'd want people to blow free XP as opposed to sitting on it.  Unless - and go ahead and don your tinfoil hats for this next bit - once they get everyone to blow all their free XP, they'll release the Kitakame, but it will be a 2,000,000 free XP ship, thus getting all the people in group 1.) who blew their stash to now move on to group 2.)  :Smile-_tongue:

Edited by zubalkabir

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21 minutes ago, Kizarvexis said:
25 minutes ago, _RC1138 said:

Well then I ask, what's worse? Slogging, skittish gameplay predicated more on what not to do, than what TO do, or being blamped by all angles because this or that class looked at you funny in a T8? Or being stomped 2/3's of the time at T5/T6 by T7/T8's due to huge disparities in gameplay mechanics and wall that new players hit where the mechanics go from a true arcade shooter to the beginning of the slog you mention? I don't personally like either, and have stopped playing as a result, but I would and did strongly feel that the T10 was 'better,' with the clear caveat that better =/= good.


The entire games' business model is built upon FOMO; are you surprised that it extends to this one as well?

FOMO? I don't recognize that acronym. 

3 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

A brief search turns up "Fear Of Missing Out".

That's not going to work on anyone with a cool head and even the slightest hint of self-awareness.

Gotta have the latest fashion or you're just not one of us, y'know? :cap_cool:  (/sarc)

Yeah, @_RC1138 every sale or discounted price on the planet is the same way. How is this news

And if you look at my signature, you will see this. So WG making money is how we get to keep playing.

The game is free to play, not free to develop and run.

 

2 minutes ago, zubalkabir said:

Okay, a common theory here is that WG is targeting two groups of people:  1.) people who are sitting on multiple millions of points of free XP, trying to get them to spend them regrinding lines, as opposed to just sitting on them, and 2.) to get some people to spend actual cash to convert the millions of otherwise unusable regular XP attached to ships that are either tier X, or lower tier, but with the next ship up the line already researched.  Okay, number 2.) makes a bit of sense.  But I don't get why they'd want people to blow free XP as opposed to sitting on it.  Unless - and go ahead and don your tinfoil hats for this next bit - once they get everyone to blow all their free XP, they'll release the Kitakame, but it will be a 2,000,000 free XP ship, thus getting all the people in group 1.) who blew their stash to now move on to group 2.)  :Smile-_tongue:

Mainly getting players to release the millions of FXP they have been hoarding is to keep them interested in the game as they have something new to strive for. Just like Steel ships keep getting added, I'm sure the Research bureau will do the same. Especially if they add cosmetic items like perma-camo with better economic bonuses. Or one-use camos with better economic bonuses.

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2 hours ago, EyE_dYe_QuIck said:

ive been playing new ftp accounts so lets see that huge grind to get to tier 7 on the most recent . did not run camo or flags but it did have some premium time included when you first start.

4 battles at tier 2

6 battles at tier 3 

9 battles at tier 4

18 battles at tier 5

38 battles at tier 6

Thats a drop in the bucket compared to the average total battles played i see here 

Assuming your numbers are correct and taken at face value, it took you 15 hours (75 games at an average of around 12 minutes a game) to get to T7 with premium time. Maybe because of my age and income requirements but 15 hours is a long time. It would be much longer without premium time as well.

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2 hours ago, HorrorRoach said:

Seriously, if they want us to regrind everything multiple times for ships, or spend a ton of money to fast track it, like we all have brand new accounts.... Rewrite the game with a much improved graphics and physics engine.  I'll gladly sign up and start over from SCRATCH. There's something cheesey about playing at T6 and lower, i'm not going to do that again. I'm also not going to blow a bunch of money on a half finished game again. You ruined tons of us, you know.

They're banking on unbeaching the whales, to push us back into the water ( into spending currency). One thing that beaches whales is getting ripped off on crates... That transcends the CV rework for sure. Stop that. Make a completely new game that doesn't feel half finished, that looks way better and isn't buggy...I'll spend 1-2,000 again easily.

Also, do not even think about slapping a new graphics engine on the current WOWS, i won't bite... 

EJ

Copycat ugggh I literally made a thread on this before you 

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36 minutes ago, Kizarvexis said:

FOMO? I don't recognize that acronym. 

FOMO = Fear of Missing Out

It is a business concept that forms the core of MOST Free To play titles (and plenty of other industries but for simplicity, we'll keep it to gaming) that predicates itself on creating the belief, that is, unsubstantiated, non-facts based reasoning that if they don't spend now, they may never have the opportunity to buy later. This is different from STANDARD money making methodologies that are predicated on consumer trust and relationship, as it very much pits the supplier (Wargaming) against the Demand from the Customer (you).

And before you say your trite "The game is not free to develop" understand that some business strategies are legitimate, some are not; artificial scarcity, which is the technical term for what FOMO in practice is, is actually illegal in *most* localities, including the US; it is a common sticking point for the Diamond industry which is 100% based on artificial scarcity (Diamonds are one of the most common natural crystals on earth (behind crystallized forms of Silicon) and are essentially worthless; their costs primarily being driven up by deliberate artificial scarcity).

It is very hard to PROSECUTE artificial scarcity because you have to prove they COULD have supplied more and deliberately decided not to; while very hard to prove for say, a food company or material goods, it is easier to prove for gaming companies (there is no logical reason that they couldn't have all ships on sale at all time for example) however, as is often the case, in order to prosecute someone, you actually have to LOOK at them, and the Gaming Industry in general gets very little attention on from regulators in general (even the recent shade thrown on Lootboxes petered out rapidly for more 'substantial industry crackdowns such as Big Info).

And before you say, "Well smart people won't fall for this," A) that isn't always true (do you think every, single person who has ever pre-ordered a *digital* release game is stupid?) B) there is a REASON this tactic is used, because it WORKS, C) it is actually NOT for whales, who can be reasonably assumed to just buy everything; it is DIRECTED at players who spend comparatively little to ensure they at least spend SOME money, and do so without establishing a relationship where equitable purchase intent is DESIRED.

Bigger industries, and 'classier' goods do not resort to this; it is on the FAR other side of the 'great divide (sales term), and generally favors short term profits against long term success which is why it is generally avoided by major businesses who prefer to develop meaningful relationships with their customers, fix their problems for them, more often than not the problem-behind-the-problem (Your problem isn't that trained labor is too expensive and you want a more automated ship, it's that it's handling characteristics, portage time, loading and offloading are excessively long and ensure that your overhead skyrockets due to lost time, let's not waste time on automated features, let's find ways to make these ships faster to load/unload to raise your per-year crossings; problem-behind-the-problem). This takes longer and is much more difficult to do, but it pays off in a big way and there *have* been games that work closer with their player bases to establish that kind of relationship; Wargaming tries, but I always get a strong feeling that there are essentially two marketing departments: one focused on volume of sale, the other on quality of sale, and one will inevitably sabotage the other.

 

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32 minutes ago, Kizarvexis said:

Especially if they add cosmetic items like perma-camo with better economic bonuses. 

Already on their way for Warspite, Spee and Shinonome.

33 minutes ago, Kizarvexis said:

one-use camos with better economic bonuses.

You want to distort the FXP economy? You sell the Asian Lantern etc. camos on an ongoing basis.

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8 minutes ago, _RC1138 said:

FOMO = Fear of Missing Out

It is a business concept that forms the core of MOST Free To play titles (and plenty of other industries but for simplicity, we'll keep it to gaming) that predicates itself on creating the belief, that is, unsubstantiated, non-facts based reasoning that if they don't spend now, they may never have the opportunity to buy later. This is different from STANDARD money making methodologies that are predicated on consumer trust and relationship, as it very much pits the supplier (Wargaming) against the Demand from the Customer (you).

And before you say your trite "The game is not free to develop" understand that some business strategies are legitimate, some are not; artificial scarcity, which is the technical term for what FOMO in practice is, is actually illegal in *most* localities, including the US; it is a common sticking point for the Diamond industry which is 100% based on artificial scarcity (Diamonds are one of the most common natural crystals on earth (behind crystallized forms of Silicon) and are essentially worthless; their costs primarily being driven up by deliberate artificial scarcity).

It is very hard to PROSECUTE artificial scarcity because you have to prove they COULD have supplied more and deliberately decided not to; while very hard to prove for say, a food company or material goods, it is easier to prove for gaming companies (there is no logical reason that they couldn't have all ships on sale at all time for example) however, as is often the case, in order to prosecute someone, you actually have to LOOK at them, and the Gaming Industry in general gets very little attention on from regulators in general (even the recent shade thrown on Lootboxes petered out rapidly for more 'substantial industry crackdowns such as Big Info).

And before you say, "Well smart people won't fall for this," A) that isn't always true (do you think every, single person who has ever pre-ordered a *digital* release game is stupid?) B) there is a REASON this tactic is used, because it WORKS, C) it is actually NOT for whales, who can be reasonably assumed to just buy everything; it is DIRECTED at players who spend comparatively little to ensure they at least spend SOME money, and do so without establishing a relationship where equitable purchase intent is DESIRED.

Bigger industries, and 'classier' goods do not resort to this; it is on the FAR other side of the 'great divide (sales term), and generally favors short term profits against long term success which is why it is generally avoided by major businesses who prefer to develop meaningful relationships with their customers, fix their problems for them, more often than not the problem-behind-the-problem (Your problem isn't that trained labor is too expensive and you want a more automated ship, it's that it's handling characteristics, portage time, loading and offloading are excessively long and ensure that your overhead skyrockets due to lost time, let's not waste time on automated features, let's find ways to make these ships faster to load/unload to raise your per-year crossings; problem-behind-the-problem). This takes longer and is much more difficult to do, but it pays off in a big way and there *have* been games that work closer with their player bases to establish that kind of relationship; Wargaming tries, but I always get a strong feeling that there are essentially two marketing departments: one focused on volume of sale, the other on quality of sale, and one will inevitably sabotage the other.

 

Like I said in the earlier response to you, every sale or discounted price on the planet is the same way. How is this news?

It's not trite, it is true. If WG doesn't make money, they there will be no game.

YMMV on WGs selling practices, but I disagree.

 

2 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

Already on their way for Warspite, Spee and Shinonome.

You want to distort the FXP economy? You sell the Asian Lantern etc. camos on an ongoing basis.

I was saying that if you sold perma-camos and one-use camos for Research points like you do for copper and the like, you are providing a cosmetic benefit for resetting and getting RP. 

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As I said in the other threads about NTC today:
 

Quote

 

This new NTC / Research Bureau thing still involves selling off my ships that I already play and regrinding what I already earned.

Therefore, it is still 100% no-go for me.  I will never do it.

NTC or whatever they end up calling it has nothing to do with actually getting players to play more battles at lower tiers, it's entirely about trying to extract money out of that EXP that's sitting on so many of our ships unconverted.  It's clear that WG considers unconverted EXP "lost revenue", and this is a transparent attempt to monetize it. 

 

2 hours ago, KilljoyCutter said:

If the point were to get people to play low and mid tier ships more often, then the system would be built around actually playing those tiers, not selling off all the ships in those tiers back to the nub of the line. 

It's built around regrinding those tiers, and is intended to drive money expenditure on premium time and converting "elite" XP to "free" XP.   WG clearly considers the tens of millions of EXP sitting around unconverted on many of our accounts "lost revenue" because we won't mass covert it to FXP at the onerously expensive rates WG has set (25 per doubloon). 

Wargaming doesn't care if you ever replay those tiers, they want your money for skipping replaying those tiers to get the shiny new ships. 

2 hours ago, KilljoyCutter said:

You can't incentivize people to play at lower tiers by forcing them to sell off their lower tier ships and then giving them every reason to skip those tiers and get back to tier X as fast as possible. 

The only way to incentivize play in the lower tiers is to actually reward people for playing a significant number of battles in those tiers. 

If the goal was to get players to play in the lower tiers, then the system would be designed around "play X battles and earn Y base XP in each ship in the line, from tier 4 to tier 7" or whatever, building up "Research Tokens" for completing the mission at each tier.  

1 hour ago, KilljoyCutter said:

Part of my original objection was to the requirement to sell off ships that some of us already keep in our fleet and already play on a regular basis, and the transparent attempt to club players into converting EXP to FXP. 

None of that changed, why should I stop objecting? 

1 hour ago, KilljoyCutter said:

And then add in the transparent attempt at deception, with WG believing that we're stupid enough to believe that this is about getting players into ships outside tier 10... when the first thing we are required to do is sell those tier 3 to 9 (or whatever) ships all the way down and start over, thus taking the ships out of play until we grind them back.... and it's not playing the ships that completes the regrind, technically with enough FXP the entire thing could be done without ever actually playing the ships at all. 

 

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