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TheBishop

AA mechanics are all wrong

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ridiculous.    i lose an ENTIRE squadron to a T6 DD all because i passed 5km from it?    STUPID.

a BB puts up buffed AA on their port side as i come in with TBs.  ok, i am going to lose some planes, no problem, BUT when i pass over and am now on the starboard side, the AA is JUST as strong, and there goes the rest of TBs.  75% my azz.

so a LOT of CA / CL have massive AA.  getting to know these.  helena, cleveland, buffalo, etc.  no worries, but when i come in bow / stern on, the AA should NOT be as effective when coming in broadside.  i swear, i am losing MORE planes coming in bow / stern, than broadside on these AA boats.

it is no wonder most of the good CV players have left.  you took away every thing that was good about it, and replaced it with crapola.

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Adapt to the new meta

If a game doesnt change it gets stagnant

Just dodge

Git gud scrub

 

....these were the highlights that CV players were saying when AA was completely broken in the other direction.  Take your pick of whichever is your favorite.

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10 minutes ago, TheBishop said:

ridiculous.    i lose an ENTIRE squadron to a T6 DD all because i passed 5km from it?    STUPID.

a BB puts up buffed AA on their port side as i come in with TBs.  ok, i am going to lose some planes, no problem, BUT when i pass over and am now on the starboard side, the AA is JUST as strong, and there goes the rest of TBs.  75% my azz.

so a LOT of CA / CL have massive AA.  getting to know these.  helena, cleveland, buffalo, etc.  no worries, but when i come in bow / stern on, the AA should NOT be as effective when coming in broadside.  i swear, i am losing MORE planes coming in bow / stern, than broadside on these AA boats.

it is no wonder most of the good CV players have left.  you took away every thing that was good about it, and replaced it with crapola.

In yesterdays Dev twitch broadcast the devs were playing CV and had the same issues. The Devs brought up themselves that AA is now too strong and they will take a hard look at it. I will bet an AA nerf will be in the works very soon. 

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And then we'll be back to being terrible. It'll swing back and forth between which side is way over-tuned. That's the new meta.

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2 minutes ago, SteelClaw said:

In yesterdays Dev twitch broadcast the devs were playing CV and had the same issues. The Devs brought up themselves that AA is now too strong and they will take a hard look at it. I will bet an AA nerf will be in the works very soon. 

Funny how reducing CV damage to cruiser levels is somehow too much.  I mean WG can nerf AA or buff planes and we'll be back to the forum being on fire with anti-CV threads.  Its up to WG if they want CVs to be played more, or make the game better for the majority of the players.  They can't do both.  In the end I have no doubt WG will go with making money, and that will be in favor of surface ships.

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31 minutes ago, TheBishop said:

ridiculous.    i lose an ENTIRE squadron to a T6 DD all because i passed 5km from it?    STUPID.

a BB puts up buffed AA on their port side as i come in with TBs.  ok, i am going to lose some planes, no problem, BUT when i pass over and am now on the starboard side, the AA is JUST as strong, and there goes the rest of TBs.  75% my azz.

so a LOT of CA / CL have massive AA.  getting to know these.  helena, cleveland, buffalo, etc.  no worries, but when i come in bow / stern on, the AA should NOT be as effective when coming in broadside.  i swear, i am losing MORE planes coming in bow / stern, than broadside on these AA boats.

it is no wonder most of the good CV players have left.  you took away every thing that was good about it, and replaced it with crapola.

Bishop, players who are good at AA sector management can time the switching sides with their AA so that as your planes pass from the port to starboard sides of the target ship, the ship's AA sector will also switch sides.  You have to learn to time it and start the switch while the TBs are making their torp run, but if done right, the sector side switch will coincide with the planes passing over your ship.  And yes, it can be painful for the planes.

Just a thought on this.  If it gets to the point where players are too good at timing sector side flips, maybe what should happen is that when your order the sector side flip, your AA reverts to 75% for both sides.  Just a thought, and I'm not really sure if it'd be a good idea regardless.

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31 minutes ago, SteelClaw said:

In yesterdays Dev twitch broadcast the devs were playing CV and had the same issues. The Devs brought up themselves that AA is now too strong and they will take a hard look at it. I will bet an AA nerf will be in the works very soon. 

The thing is that maybe all they need to do is revert this "all continuous AA damage being inflicted on a single plane" thing.  For one thing, it completely devalues the plane heal consumable.

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1 hour ago, T_O_dubl_D said:

Adapt to the new meta

If a game doesnt change it gets stagnant

Just dodge

Git gud scrub

 

....these were the highlights that CV players were saying when AA was completely broken in the other direction.  Take your pick of whichever is your favorite.

AA wasn't completely broken before 8.5 but what was broken was feedback to the AA player on how his AA is doing. If a CV player makes a pass at a ship and half his planes are at red damage and the rest are at yellow he goes home without making another pass, the AA did its job but the target ship player didn't know that.

Something that desperately needs to be addressed now is AA scaling which was a problem in the RTS days and became worse with the rework and the 8.5 AA change magnified it even more.

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Quick co-op game in Harekaze last night, only 10-point Akeno captain so no way I could have AA-specced. After skirmishes with enemy DDs I'm at like 2/3rds health when the enemy bot Saipan decides to focus me for the rest of the match. It doesn't hit me even once but does keep me constantly lit up (a minor gripe I have with the CV AI, they don't switch targets even if they break LoS with smoke). Against me and a Jervis who was probably just as not-AA-specced, the Saipan lost all of its rocket and DB squads before the 7-minute mark. Curiously it refused to send out any TBs against me and died with a barren deck.

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7 minutes ago, Flashtirade said:

Quick co-op game in Harekaze last night, only 10-point Akeno captain so no way I could have AA-specced. After skirmishes with enemy DDs I'm at like 2/3rds health when the enemy bot Saipan decides to focus me for the rest of the match. It doesn't hit me even once but does keep me constantly lit up (a minor gripe I have with the CV AI, they don't switch targets even if they break LoS with smoke). Against me and a Jervis who was probably just as not-AA-specced, the Saipan lost all of its rocket and DB squads before the 7-minute mark. Curiously it refused to send out any TBs against me and died with a barren deck.

:Smile_sad: that poor Saipan, rest in peace

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2 hours ago, T_O_dubl_D said:

Adapt to the new meta

If a game doesnt change it gets stagnant

Just dodge

Git gud scrub

 

....these were the highlights that CV players were saying when AA was completely broken in the other direction.  Take your pick of whichever is your favorite.

You know what would be nice if when ships were on fire, their Reload times were doubled or if DCP only removed fires and healed HP but did NOT repair Main gun damage. Then players could deal with and experience the frustration that CVs have with the current AA.

Having your DPS drop or completely shut down during an attack Due to a game mechanic that required Zero skill or input from a player is not a fun experience. 

Lol also CV players are not complaining about FLAK aa, yes that can be Dodged.....but tell me how do you "Dodge" continuous AA damage???? So the "Just Dodge" does not really count in this situation.  

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The actual AA mechanics that are in the game now are almost impossible to balance, they're going to keep swinging back and forth between "useless" and "devastating"  -- the core mechanics will need to change before these issues can be fundamentally addressed. 

 

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1 hour ago, BrushWolf said:

AA wasn't completely broken before 8.5 but what was broken was feedback to the AA player on how his AA is doing. If a CV player makes a pass at a ship and half his planes are at red damage and the rest are at yellow he goes home without making another pass, the AA did its job but the target ship player didn't know that.

Something that desperately needs to be addressed now is AA scaling which was a problem in the RTS days and became worse with the rework and the 8.5 AA change magnified it even more.

 

 This is so true.

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8 minutes ago, KilljoyCutter said:

The actual AA mechanics that are in the game now are almost impossible to balance, they're going to keep swinging back and forth between "useless" and "devastating"  -- the core mechanics will need to change before these issues can be fundamentally addressed. 

 

Actually it's pretty easy to balance.

Remove flak clouds.

Remove stupid 'sectors'.

Have AA damage start small, then ramp up 10% a second up to 250% bonus damage. 

This fixes the 'hey the CV is just trolling me with wave after wave of planes and my AA isn't doing anything"  issue. While allowing the CV to fly through and make strikes on multiple different targets, and thereby have a decent impact on the game as a whole. TADA!

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I weep for the griefers, truly.

Come back when the other classes in the game can terminally guide their attacks on target from across the map.

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Just now, Kassimila said:

Actually it's pretty easy to balance.

Remove flak clouds.

Remove stupid 'sectors'.

Have AA damage start small, then ramp up 10% a second up to 250% bonus damage. 

This fixes the 'hey the CV is just trolling me with wave after wave of planes and my AA isn't doing anything"  issue. While allowing the CV to fly through and make strikes on multiple different targets, and thereby have a decent impact on the game as a whole. TADA!

 

And that would be changes to the actual mechanics...

 

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2 minutes ago, Highlord said:

I weep for the griefers, truly.

Come back when the other classes in the game can terminally guide their attacks on target from across the map.

Man almost one post per battle, troll identified.

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1 minute ago, KilljoyCutter said:

 

And that would be changes to the actual mechanics...

 

Lol...fair enough.

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21 minutes ago, KilljoyCutter said:

The actual AA mechanics that are in the game now are almost impossible to balance, they're going to keep swinging back and forth between "useless" and "devastating"  -- the core mechanics will need to change before these issues can be fundamentally addressed. 

 

Yup.

9 minutes ago, Highlord said:

I weep for the griefers, truly.

Come back when the other classes in the game can terminally guide their attacks on target from across the map.

...and who are the 'griefers'?

You do realize the point of this game is to grief other ships, right?

Or do your battles look like medieval tournaments?

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Principles for working AA:

1)  The tier to tier scale of AA damage and aircraft health both need to be flatter.   The leap from tier 6 to tier 8 for both is way way too steep, for example, and same for any other difference in tiers.   A tier 6 ship should not be helpless against tier 8 aircraft, and tier 6 aircraft should not be useless against a tier 8 target.

2)  The spread of AA effectiveness from the worst ship to the best ship within a tier should not range from "pointless" to "basically immune against enemy aircraft".  There should be a range of AA effectiveness in each tier that all ships fall within.  If this means giving a ship more AA than it had in real life, then so be it -- fixating on AA loadouts as something to keep "historical" when so many other things aren't is bad for the game.

3)  The AA effectiveness for any ship against any carrier it can see in combat should be somewhere within the span of "always costs the CV something, never costs the CV everything".   No ship should be helpless against another ship, no ship should be immune to another ship, as long as those two ships can face each other in battle. 

4)  Get rid of the notion of any manual involvement in AA.  It's pointless and silly and results in too many layers of "skill on skill on skill" borking up the basic range of balance.  We do not need dodgeable AA effects, and we do not need manually aimed AA of any kind.  The best manual involvement in AA was when we could click on one air group and tell our AA "focus on this one first", and that's about all the game can handle.  Flak bursts and the sector focus system need to just go.

5)  Get rid of the notion of "onion layers" of AA, and let the AA effects of the various mount sizes overlap.  If the medium and large mounts need a minimum range, then make it 0.5km and 1.0km respectively across the board, instead of having each just mysteriously stop where the next layer in starts (right now identical AA mounts have different min ranges depending on what the smaller mounts on the ship have for max ranges, which is just silly).   This eliminates the problem with some ships having giant gaps in their AA coverage, and allows for AA to get collectively stronger the closer the aircraft get to the target ship. 

6)  AA (and secondaries) should start the battle loaded -- there should never be a "oh hey enemy aircraft maybe we should load now" delay. 

7)  Bring back the range-boosting effects of AFT, modules, etc -- instead of the token damage boosts.  Let aircraft that specialize in AA actually cover other ships, rather than just piling on more damage within their own auras.   Make carrier pilots guess whether the ship they're attacking has 4.8km or 5.8km range on its AA, or whatever -- add the uncertainty in things like range instead of damage.   That also means that there's less variation in damage to be balanced. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, TheBishop said:

ridiculous.    i lose an ENTIRE squadron to a T6 DD all because i passed 5km from it?    STUPID.

a BB puts up buffed AA on their port side as i come in with TBs.  ok, i am going to lose some planes, no problem, BUT when i pass over and am now on the starboard side, the AA is JUST as strong, and there goes the rest of TBs.  75% my azz.

so a LOT of CA / CL have massive AA.  getting to know these.  helena, cleveland, buffalo, etc.  no worries, but when i come in bow / stern on, the AA should NOT be as effective when coming in broadside.  i swear, i am losing MORE planes coming in bow / stern, than broadside on these AA boats.

it is no wonder most of the good CV players have left.  you took away every thing that was good about it, and replaced it with crapola.

The best thing you can do right now is just stop playing CVs entirely.   Its the #1 best way to show the developers your dissatisfaction with their choices.

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2 minutes ago, Zenn3k said:

The best thing you can do right now is just stop playing CVs entirely.   Its the #1 best way to show the developers your dissatisfaction with their choices.

But...but...my french tokens :(

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9 minutes ago, Kassimila said:

But...but...my french tokens :(

Co-Op?  Its based on wins, you should be doing it all in co-op for speed sake.

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26 minutes ago, Zenn3k said:

Co-Op?  Its based on wins, you should be doing it all in co-op for speed sake.

The point of a game is to have fun, co-op is not fun, therefore I do not play co-op. :)

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