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Jimmybobcornflake

A lengthy topic about Destroyers & why change is needed

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I'm doing this from mobile, so if there's spelling or grammar mistakes, relax and I'll get to them when I can. 

To start this off, I am not a DD player by any means, but I have "some" experience in playing these ship types. From my minimal experience, I see a trend in these ships and you're more than welcome to comment your opinion on the matter as well. 

What I'm seeing is a ship type that really has no counter play.. Except itself. 

I'm a cruiser player and generally my time in battles is towards the middle of the map, using islands to my advantage to shoot and sink ships, and run away when spotted from DD's or other classes if their firepower trumps mine.

My one real gripe currently is DDs and how they can pretty much have their way with me or anyone (if there is a CV and by that, a good CV player , this changes slightly) because of how they play. 

 

They have some of the best features of any ship type.... 

-Small, nimble and quick 

- Low detection range 

- Long ranged torps and short detection range of those torps (this is very debatable here) 

- ability to spot other ships without being detected (unless same class is close) 

- smoke ( lol baguette ships do not) 

    

What I notice is how I constantly find myself being detected by these little buggers and my only counter play is to use radar, and if myself or my team is unable to capitalize on the DD, we're then back to the mercy of that little death boat. If youre on a ship without radar or a decent hydrocoutsic, you're really at a disadvantage and pray your dd captain is chuck norris to go and kill the enemy dd. My experience when the myself/team fails to eliminate the DD is to hug that island and hope to lose detection and take another stab at it once radar is back up. 

If I manage to sink it, and there's no other dd near, I'm then relaxed and can have an enjoyable battle without the death boat ruining it. 

 

Another scenario (and this happens more than it should be) is the double DD spot and fire tactic. One DD is out in the open spotting and the other dd can pop smoke from afar , sit inside and lob HE shells over and over and I/anyone got no counter play. Some of you may call it bad positioning but if I was able to access mspaint and draw up the same situation (pictures tell a lot) you'd have a very good idea of why this sucks. 

The new French DDs don't have smoke, but are still very nimble, have good guns and nice torps (75 knots on some lol). I'm going to see how I fair against these over the weekend. 

 

My proposition is we need another way to get DDs spotted. Some things I recommend are 

- change gun ballistics so there's more arc to the guns, but reduce the range they can shoot 

- when torps are launched, a 3 second max spotting range(for that ship type as if it fired its guns) is triggered so we have some idea to where the dd is (but doesn't give us the impression if it was a torp launch or gun fire as it could also be within your spotting distance of that ship) 

- I'll add more later 

 

Some comments I'm expecting are "just take rpf on your cruiser so you know where the closest target (dd) is and hope to spot it. 

I'd rather not be forced to take a skill to help counter a class type. I understand DD captains take it because their priority target (and atleast when I played my DD's) is to kill the enemy dd asap. Once enemy dd is elminited, and I'm in my DD... I can pretty much control the outcome of the side I'm on without any minor problems and no class should have that power. 

 

Another would be "tell your CV (if there is one) to fly its planes over the dd and spot it that way. 

 

If there's no carriers on any side.. Then the dds only problem is the enemy dd until that's taken care of. If there is a carrier, then yes I'd hope he/she does so and gets that ship out of the match quickly. Though there's not a lot of pro carrier play yet, and I'm hoping that changes because carriers seem like in a good spot for playing. (easy to play that is) 

 

Tldr; change how DD's are spotted. Lower gun range, & spotted on torp launch for short duration

 

Please feel free to post your opinions as I might be going about this the wrong way.. However from what I experience, they reign supreme 95% of my matches. 

Edited by Jimmybobcornflake
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7 minutes ago, Jimmybobcornflake said:

What I'm seeing is a ship type that really has no counter play.. Except itself. 

Please feel free to post your opinions as I might be going about this the wrong way.. However from what I experience, they reign supreme 95% of my matches. 

You realize DDs have the lowest damage and survivability of any type of ship.

Every ship counters DDs.

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L2P. I thought the same thing, then I learned. Try it. DD's aren't the invincible bogeyman they seem to be when your new. The operative word in your entire post is "minimal" experience. It invalidates everything after that. There's tons of counter play to DD's. Don't be a nerf-whiner.

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I agree DDs are annoying (Khabs and new Frenchies), BUT, the best way to counter a DD? Shoot at it allot! Even if you only hit one or two shells it can be enough. That juicy BB you've been farming can wait, KILL THE DD. DDs will melt under concentrated focus fire from multiple ships. Just a few good hits are enough to change the DDs operational status from offense to defense. One thing that is really annoying is when I spot DDs and yet almost no one shoots them. The longer a DD is allowed to survive, the greater impact it has on the game. I would also recommend playing the IJN DD line so you can get a feel for what hurts a DD. If you need to go into the training room and practice shooting a few. It will greatly improve your aim. Nothing scarier than when a CA doesn't miss my DD during multiple salvos.

 

Edited by Ivan_Namirettov
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I consider 30k average and anything over 50k a great game when playing a Dd. It is not easy. Hydro radar planes etc. If you dont keep aa off until last second you give away your position.

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12 minutes ago, Noone_You_Know said:

L2P. I thought the same thing, then I learned. Try it. DD's aren't the invincible bogeyman they seem to be when your new. The operative word in your entire post is "minimal" experience. It invalidates everything after that. There's tons of counter play to DD's. Don't be a nerf-whiner.

Give me your wisdom then... :cap_like:

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To be fair, DDs teaming up is an example of teamwork, so to look for equivalent counterplay, look at a 2-cruiser division. Call it 2 Gearings perhaps, and look at the cruiser lineup that can do quite well against them: all but Zao and Yoshino can push them. Teamplay is supposed to give an advantage.

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DDs are far from Invincible.  The higher you go in a given tech tree the more obstacles are put in your path you need to take into account.  First you will encounter cruisers Hydro, so your torps are not quite as lethal as against ships that do not have Hydro.   Starting at Tier 7 you have to deal with ships with Radar.   Smart DD players aren't rushing caps.  They take their time to scout and pick out where ships with Radar and Hydro are.  If there is a CV pay more attention to the mini map, look at all the spots where the CV has planes.   Cruisers like a Cleveland and Atlanta are a DDs worst enemy, IJN Cruisers are great DD hunters, put RPF on a IJN Cruiser and use Hydro, you can chase down a lot of the DDs out there.  So no DDs are not OP, it is the Driver that can be OP.  Put someone who really know hows play a DDs at the highest levels and they make you miserable with most any of the DDs in the game.

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I play BBs, CAs. CLs, and DDs, but probably more DDs than anything.  From a DD perspective the matches look a little different.  They can be detected and/or spotted by:

  • LOS from ships
  • aircraft
  • radar
  • hydro
  • RPF
  • the cap circle starting to turn red, or ceasing to continue turning green, lets the enemy know you are in it.  This usually prompts the radar to activate.

I generally don't waste torpedoes on cruisers unless there are no other targets, I'm at close range, or I'm in a torp spam boat like Benham, and can afford to toss them out like candy.  Otherwise, they will dodge them, unless they aren't paying attention.  As for being countered by other DDs, that usually means being spotted by them, and then getting focus fired by cruisers and BBs.  And even if they don't instantly delete you, the damaged steering and/or propulsion usually sets you up for the coup de grace.

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Now this is refreshing!!

It's usually the BB mains whining about DD's and CV's. Not a CL main. Actually that's kinda weird... :)

OP, you do realize that cruisers are specifically designed to kill destroyers and not to hump islands... right? They have the tools.

But watch out for those new French DD's. (they can rip your cruiser a new one).

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You probably need to spend time playing as DDs, OP.  The grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence.

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35 minutes ago, Jimmybobcornflake said:

Give me your wisdom then... :cap_like:

 

Maybe try playing them then if you think they are so OP. Play a couple of hundred games in a DD and then get back to us.

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Sail erratically.

If you are spotted and you cant see what is spotting you then use islands to determine his LOS. Avoid that area if you think you should not engage alone.

 

Just a couple of beginner tips.

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game mechanics are against you, LOS doesnt exist, when your there and hes on the other side of a mountain but in the detection circle, your spotted,  even though really  he has no line of sight to  you,

This is a game developer issue and one of the things that makes a dd so powerful and its a big issue so that if he spots you then his whole team spots you. 

He may not be able to get a shot to  you being behind a mountain, but  you can be sure that his team mates can from across the map angled

such is life in the swamp

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1 hour ago, Jimmybobcornflake said:

Give me your wisdom then... :cap_like:

Give us your replay videos so we can see what your issues are. Also give us your performance metrics which will also help spot issues like whether you're being too aggressive or too passive.

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59 minutes ago, Jimmybobcornflake said:

Give me your wisdom then... :cap_like:

I'll give you a little wisdom...

First, you are posting from an account that is either hidden or has no battles played.  Guess what?  You are immediately discounted as any source of expertise in the game.  Show us your chops or keep your trap shut.  You know nothing.

Second, you admit to having little experience in DD play.  If so, why do you consider yourself expert enough to critique DD play?

Third, you are a cruiser player who feels DDs are overpowered?  Huh?  Cruisers are THE counter to a DD, their primary nemesis.  You should be munching on DDs, not fearing them.

 

Yes, I may be coming across strong here.  But I am sick and tired of people thinking they have to share their views/opinions/expertise when, in actuality, they have comparably little  expertise to draw on.  I know, I know, it is a free and open forum and everyone has the right to speak.  You have exercised yours.

Well, I am exercising mine.  Show us you are a good source for your view(s) and shared "expertise" or don't expect me or anyone with a serious amount of game experience to take you seriously.

Just is.

~Sabene

VT Commander

 

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If you are spotted by an unseen DD (he is not firing guns), he is probably setting up a torp shot. Long range torp shots take skill and luck to land on a wary target. Hydro (if you have it) will ruin any chance of the DD getting a hit. WASD works wonders too. Its often a big ocean so the DD has to guess where you are going to be when the torps arrive. You may not be sinking that unseen DD, but you are making him fairly useless.

If the DD (or any ship for that matter) is firing from smoke, you or you buddies need to flood the area with torps of your own. Hydro/radar are excellent at exposing that hidden, parked DD. You can even shoot at his muzzle flashes.

Lots of counters. You failed to mention the universal drawback of all DDs, lowest HP.

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1 hour ago, pewpewpew42 said:

To be fair, DDs teaming up is an example of teamwork, so to look for equivalent counterplay, look at a 2-cruiser division. Call it 2 Gearings perhaps, and look at the cruiser lineup that can do quite well against them: all but Zao and Yoshino can push them. Teamplay is supposed to give an advantage.

It certainly does...myself and a clan member both spawned in Gearings on the same side on mountain range by C cap...we were able to deny that cap by smoking for our BB's on our side as well and kept sending Xcross torps out...we won the match....but the teamwork is what makes a difference and we do not under stress COMMUNICATION in a division or team or whatever...without it...your ~borked~.

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Sounds like you are sitting in a predictable spot and any monkey in a dd will know to avoid the typical radar hiding spot after dying there a few times.

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1 hour ago, Jimmybobcornflake said:

Scroll to bottom for tl;dr

I'm doing this from mobile, so if there's spelling or grammar mistakes, relax and I'll get to them when I can. 

To start this off, I am not a DD player by any means, but I have "some" experience in playing these ship types. From my minimal experience, I see a trend in these ships and you're more than welcome to comment your opinion on the matter as well. 

What I'm seeing is a ship type that really has no counter play.. Except itself. 

I'm a cruiser player and generally my time in battles is towards the middle of the map, using islands to my advantage to shoot and sink ships, and run away when spotted from DD's or other classes if their firepower trumps mine.

My one real gripe currently is DDs and how they can pretty much have their way with me or anyone (if there is a CV and by that, a good CV player , this changes slightly) because of how they play. 

 

They have some of the best features of any ship type.... 

-Small, nimble and quick 

- Low detection range 

- Long ranged torps and short detection range of those torps (this is very debatable here) 

- ability to spot other ships without being detected (unless same class is close) 

- smoke ( lol baguette ships do not) 

    

What I notice is how I constantly find myself being detected by these little buggers and my only counter play is to use radar, and if myself or my team is unable to capitalize on the DD, we're then back to the mercy of that little death boat. If youre on a ship without radar or a decent hydrocoutsic, you're really at a disadvantage and pray your dd captain is chuck norris to go and kill the enemy dd. My experience when the myself/team fails to eliminate the DD is to hug that island and hope to lose detection and take another stab at it once radar is back up. 

If I manage to sink it, and there's no other dd near, I'm then relaxed and can have an enjoyable battle without the death boat ruining it. 

 

Another scenario (and this happens more than it should be) is the double DD spot and fire tactic. One DD is out in the open spotting and the other dd can pop smoke from afar , sit inside and lob HE shells over and over and I/anyone got no counter play. Some of you may call it bad positioning but if I was able to access mspaint and draw up the same situation (pictures tell a lot) you'd have a very good idea of why this sucks. 

The new French DDs don't have smoke, but are still very nimble, have good guns and nice torps (75 knots on some lol). I'm going to see how I fair against these over the weekend. 

 

My proposition is we need another way to get DDs spotted. Some things I recommend are 

- change gun ballistics so there's more arc to the guns, but reduce the range they can shoot 

- when torps are launched, a 3 second max spotting range(for that ship type as if it fired its guns) is triggered so we have some idea to where the dd is (but doesn't give us the impression if it was a torp launch or gun fire as it could also be within your spotting distance of that ship) 

- I'll add more later 

 

Some comments I'm expecting are "just take rpf on your cruiser so you know where the closest target (dd) is and hope to spot it. 

I'd rather not be forced to take a skill to help counter a class type. I understand DD captains take it because their priority target (and atleast when I played my DD's) is to kill the enemy dd asap. Once enemy dd is elminited, and I'm in my DD... I can pretty much control the outcome of the side I'm on without any minor problems and no class should have that power. 

 

Another would be "tell your CV (if there is one) to fly its planes over the dd and spot it that way. 

 

If there's no carriers on any side.. Then the dds only problem is the enemy dd until that's taken care of. If there is a carrier, then yes I'd hope he/she does so and gets that ship out of the match quickly. Though there's not a lot of pro carrier play yet, and I'm hoping that changes because carriers seem like in a good spot for playing. (easy to play that is) 

 

Tldr; change how DD's are spotted. Lower gun range, & spotted on torp launch for short duration

 

Please feel free to post your opinions as I might be going about this the wrong way.. However from what I experience, they reign supreme 95% of my matches. 

 

DD doll.jpg

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1 hour ago, Jimmybobcornflake said:

change gun ballistics so there's more arc to the guns, but reduce the range they can shoot 

- when torps are launched, a 3 second max spotting range(for that ship type as if it fired its guns) is triggered so we have some idea to where the dd is (but doesn't give us the impression if it was a torp launch or gun fire as it could also be within your spotting distance of that ship) 

So more floaty shells at shorter ranges? Most DD's guns already have high shell arcs and short ranges. Try hitting anything but the biggest BB at max range with say a USN DD. 

So you basically want to take away stealth firing from torpedoes. You realize that this basically makes it impossible to land torps outside point blank range because all you have to do to avoid them is to not move in a straight line. Just change speed and direction(WASD) for 5 seconds after the DD is exposed for 3 seconds and all the torps miss. 

Try playing more DDs to see how they operate and you can learn how to counter them. At very least you can see how they are not as OP as you say they are. 

Some basic advice is to take note of the locations of smoke, torpedoes, caps, and last known location of DDs. You can make an educated guess where DDs are based on these. Look at the line up of DDs at the beginning of the match and plan accordingly. IJN DDs have longer torpedo ranges so expect to find them further out while RN and USN DDs tend to like to get in closer to use their shorter range torps and guns. Most Cruisers after tier VII have access to either radar, hydro or both so pick these consumables and learn when and where they are most effective to use. Learning advanced DD tactics also helps know what DD captains are thinking. I suggest watching @Destroyer_KuroshioKai since he has some pretty good videos on how to play DDs. Hope this helps.

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You are correct that a DD can have their way with a CA.  I love to sit just outside your radar range spotting and calling target on them.  I enjoy watching radar ships flee trying to escape my sight, knowing they have no hope if they arent screened by another DD master race.  When they hug their waifu so the bad BB wont touch them they are ready for my peeds.  

All it takes is the skill to know how to tackle the situation.  Playing DDs is the closest thing to God mode this game has.  I decide who lives, who dies just by what I spot or conceal.

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