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axyarthur

0.8.6 Balance changes

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So patch 0.8.6 will bring several balance changes, while some are welcome (Emerald buff), others just seem...misplaced or overdone. I will mentioned a few:

German 105 mm secondary battery guns mounted on Tirpitz, Bismarck, Graf Zeppelin, and Tier VIII-X cruisers

We’ve increased the armor-penetration capability of their HE shells from 17 to 25 mm. This change will enable 105 mm shells fired by the secondary battery guns of the German ships to penetrate the hull plating of destroyers, cruisers, and Tier VI–VII battleships.

Yeah, it's nice buff, but secondary builds are just not worth it in the current meta. The problem with German BBs now is not secondary guns, but main battery accuracy. They are supposed to be brawlers when they were released, but with the introduction of the RU BBs and their much more accurate guns and tankier hulls against HE, the German BBs seem to be missing a role. So while this buff is nice, it will not change the fact that T8 and T9 German BBs will continue to perform below average due to their lack of main battery potency.

Pan-Asian destroyer Chung Mu

The reload time of the ship's main battery guns has been increased from 3.3 to 3.5 seconds.

The reload time of Chung Mu's researchable torpedo tubes has been increased from 106 to 122 seconds.

Pan-Asian destroyer Yueyang

The reload time of the ship's torpedo tubes has been reduced from 156 to 146 seconds.

These changes are questionable at best. Last time you nerfed the YY so hard that you can argue that T9 Chung Mu is actually the better ship, so to compensate you decide to nerf T9 as well. But is the Chung Mu really better than other T9 dds? It is basically the same ship as Fletcher with deep water torps swapped in for regular torps. The DWT's are a better threat to cruisers and BBs due to their low visibility, but the trade off is that you cannot torp dds in smoke with them. So while the increase in torp reload can be justified, why change the gun reload? Why give it worse gun performance than the Fletcher when it already has the the worse torp reload? The main battery reload nef is unjustified, I think.

Regarding the YY, it's nice that you decide to give some of the torp reload back, but what this ship really needs is better guns. Again, it's basically a Gearing clone with DWTs, and it needs at least equal gun performance to the Gearing since it cannot use torps against DDs. This is especially true now that you are buffing Gearing 16.5km torps. Give YY at least 3.3s reload (same as Gearing with legendary mod), and I would even buff torp reload to 135 - 140s, but gun improvement is a must.

British battleships King George V, Lion, Duke of York, Monarch, and Conqueror

The citadel has been elevated and now occupies part of the ships' casemates.

The Repair Party consumable has been changed:

The restoration of the casemate (non-citadel) damage has been increased from 60% to 75%.

 VII Duke of York will get one extra charge of the consumable.

 VII King George V,  VII Duke of York and Monarch will now have 0.6% restored of their maximum HP pool per second as opposed to 0.5% as it was previously.

For  VII King George V,  VIII Monarch and  VII Duke of York, the cooldown time of the Repair Party consumable has been reduced from 120 to 90 seconds.

For  IX Lion and  X Conqueror, the cooldown time has been reduced from 180 to 120 seconds.

Again, these changes miss what is inadequate in the UK BBs. I don't have the T9 and T10 ships, so my comments here will mostly be on the KGV and Monarch. While it's understandable that you want to give these BBs more vulnerable broadside, but their survivability were never an issue, either positively or negatively. Sure they are hard to citadel, but they also melts to HE, so lacking the super heal, the T7 and T8 BBs are actually quite balance when it comes to survivability. The Monarch is considered to be a lackluster BB not because of its armor, but because of its lack of consistent damage in main guns. The HE is nice, but it's not Conqueor level nice, and a lot of times you still get screw by RNG because your dispersion is worse than ships like NC or Amagi so you hit like 1-2 shells in a salvo. Given the poor accuracy and the special fuse timer that RN BB has, using AP is also not rewarding. So a better change in my opinion would have been to give the Monarch slightly better accuracy. Another issue with the T7 and T8 BBs are the bad firing arc of the rear turret. You practically have to give broadside to use all your guns. That wasn't an issue before with the lower citadel, but with the change this patch, it will be a lot more punishing, and make these ships even harder to play, even with the improved heal.

Regarding the role of the UK BBs as a whole, I'm not sure what you want to accomplish with these changes. Do you want to encourage them to move away from long range HE spam?, or do you just want to make these BBs less "noob friendly"? If the former, I don't think the changes will accomplish that. If anything, it might make players even more reluctant to push due to more vulnerable sides. If the latter, I don't think much will change, as there will always be bad players that show broadsides, in whatever ship they play. If anything, these changes will make the T9 and T10 BBs more powerful, as skillful player will know to mitigate the vulnerable broadside and use the super heals more effectively. 

 

What do other people think about the balance changes in this patch?

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4 minutes ago, DolphinPrincess said:

The German secondary buff is for the potatoes. Some lines are meant to have lower skill curves that are "potato" friendly. In exchange for the lower skill floor that the German BBs have, they come at the cost of a lower skill ceiling. Which means at top level play they will never perform as well as BBs with a high skill ceiling (such as Yamato). German BBs are designed to cater toward potatoes and the buff does exactly that, so Id say its fine.

 

I think the HE buff is to get ahead of the proposed IFHE change which will cause a big hit to fire chance on everything above five inch even with DE to bring it back up.

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I think all changes are on spot. Sometimes not enough (like Henry nerf and Yoyo buff) but it’s better to approach equilibrium slowly than jump around (as situation with CV shows). Chung Mu nerf is sad but as other two leaders in WR (Black and Neustrashimy) are premiums and thus untouchable that’s the way things gonna be.

Positive moment here is that all changes makes sense

(personally I’d prefer them to buff unlucky power creeped boats Tashkent and Yugumo rather than nerfing Chung-Mu and use this approach in general, but that’d be asking too much)

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24 minutes ago, axyarthur said:

So patch 0.8.6 will bring several balance changes, while some are welcome (Emerald buff), others just seem...misplaced or overdone. I will mentioned a few:

German 105 mm secondary battery guns mounted on Tirpitz, Bismarck, Graf Zeppelin, and Tier VIII-X cruisers

We’ve increased the armor-penetration capability of their HE shells from 17 to 25 mm. This change will enable 105 mm shells fired by the secondary battery guns of the German ships to penetrate the hull plating of destroyers, cruisers, and Tier VI–VII battleships.

Yeah, it's nice buff, but secondary builds are just not worth it in the current meta. The problem with German BBs now is not secondary guns, but main battery accuracy. They are supposed to be brawlers when they were released, but with the introduction of the RU BBs and their much more accurate guns and tankier hulls against HE, the German BBs seem to be missing a role. So while this buff is nice, it will not change the fact that T8 and T9 German BBs will continue to perform below average due to their lack of main battery potency.

It's a much needed buff, but consider an alternative perspective.  The meta isn't defined by WG, it's defined by the players.  The Bismarck isn't very competitive because it lacks lethality, and moving its 105mm secondaries from 17mm of penetration to 25mm is a complete game changer.  When players can rely on the tools that the Bismarck has to achieve victory, then you will see it begin to be incorporated into the meta.  The FDG got the same buff and it's amazing now, though still suffers from its previous reputation.

(Competitive play will always default to main battery prowess over everything else.)

Improving the firing angles on its secondary batteries on the Bismarck/Tirpitz would also help a lot.  The very rear 105mm battery doesn't fire over top of the 150mm below it, but the others do.  I think that's a bug.  The Massachusetts can pretty much get its entire secondary battery on a target at ~25 degrees, but the Bismarck actually needs to show full broadside.

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I discovered my DD potential playing YY right before the nerf. I get the need to adjust Chung Mu but at the same time I think we went overboard with the YY nerf. Not sure where it all plays out but now I practice Gearing skills instead, which is slated for a buff (imagine that).

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Typical WG patch notes. A mixed bag of nonsensical nerfs and buffs that the community didn't ask for, and that fail to really address the supposed issues they're trying to fix.

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HIV nerf/Groz nerf - I don't know what they can do to balance these ship other than completely gut something like their reload or turn. At least they acknowledge there's an issue.

Roon/Hinden buff - It's not that these ships were particularly bad, it's just that French cruisers traded outright tankiness for speed tanking while also getting better damage output, and that's not going to change.

German secondaries buff - Secondaries were always a meme but Massachusetts and now Georgia have completely powercreeped even this portion of the game while not giving up as much as the Germans.

Gearing buff - It's something. I don't know if she really needs buffing or not.

Chung Mu nerf - This makes me question how much better this and Yueyang were performing over Fletcher and Gearing to warrant nerfs. Are DWTs that much better?

Yueyang buff - It's something. Probably not enough, I don't see either this or Chung Mu around in most games.

Jutland nerf - I suspect Daring will be hit eventually. Why either of these got heals when the rest of the line is perfectly capable without them is beyond me, I think that's the real issue.

Kii buff - I don't think anything can save this ship in terms of in-game design.

Z-23 buff - As someone who's close to unlocking this ship, I thank you in advance.

Emerald buff - RIP in peace HE citadels, you were fun while you lasted.

Hatsuharu changes - RIP in peace gun Hatsuharu, a build never realized.

Gnevny changes - No idea if this is a buff or nerf

Nicholas changes - Dual purpose guns is a big deal. Maybe another unexpected AA DD build is on the horizon. I hope the gun angle changes are a buff.

British BB changes - As one of the few who actually enjoy DoY, I thank you in advance. Making the line more thoughtful to play is a gameplay buff in my book. Now if only you would take a look at those HE shells and gun accuracy...

Hakuryu changes - RIP in peace for good, flying Shima. Here's wishing that Hak got a 3-torp drop option like Audacious.

AA changes - This is going to be another big change to AA. Planes are going to take a lot more damage in the long-range zones than what they're used to. If you're not shorting squads as a CV, you'd better start now.

Edited by Flashtirade
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Yueyang will still be dead. Chung Mu nerf is okay. At least they didn't work it over with a sledgehammer. British BB changes are great: punishing potato play while rewarding angling. Other changes I don't really care about one way or the other.

Edited by AdmiralPiett

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Pulls up patch notes.

Ctrl-F:  "Improvement to Tier VIII MM"

Ctrl-F:  "Fixed Bug where shells change trajectory and head for nearest island when you lose lock-on for 1/2 second"

Ctrl-F:  "Added feature where flags in Port can be demounted with one click"

Ctrl-F:  "Added consistent key mapping for all basic consumables on all ships"

 

 

*sigh*

 

 

 

Edited by JCC45
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1 hour ago, Flashtirade said:

Gearing buff - It's something. I don't know if she really needs buffing or not.

It's literally in last place in win rate:

Spoiler
Nation Class Tier premium? Name Win
MN BB 10 P Bourgogne 58.35
SN CA 10 P Stalingrad 56.47
JP CA 10 P Yoshino 48.28
US CA 10 P Salem 46.48
RN DD 10   Daring 56.07
SN BB 10   Kremlin 53.95
RN CV 10   Audacious 50.69
SN DD 10   Khabarovsk 52.63
SN DD 10   Grozovoi 51.97
MN CA 10   Henri IV 51.71
JP CV 10   Hakuryu 48.54
RN CA 10   Minotaur 50.59
SN CA 10   Moskva 50.35
US CA 10   Des Moines 49.63
KM BB 10   Grosser Kurfuerst 49.29
KM DD 10   Z-52 49.19
US CA 10   Worcester 48.92
PA DD 10   Yueyang 48.91
JP DD 10   Shimakaze 48.83
JP DD 10   Harugumo 48.82
JP BB 10   Yamato 48.79
US CV 10   Midway 48.75
JP CA 10   Zao 48.35
KM CA 10   Hindenburg 47.75
MN BB 10   Republique 47.48
US BB 10   Montana 47.11
RN BB 10   Conqueror 47.04
US DD 10   Gearing 46.89

Source: maple.suryp's data from 07/13

 

 

 
 

Edit: The ship has simply been power crept. Why choose Gearing when even the Shima has better guns and torps?

Edited by 10T0nHammer
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Honestly, all I care about in this patch is how much more that AA is going to be buffed.

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4 minutes ago, 10T0nHammer said:

It's literally in last place in win rate:

  Hide contents
Nation Class Tier premium? Name Win
MN BB 10 P Bourgogne 58.35
SN CA 10 P Stalingrad 56.47
JP CA 10 P Yoshino 48.28
US CA 10 P Salem 46.48
RN DD 10   Daring 56.07
SN BB 10   Kremlin 53.95
RN CV 10   Audacious 50.69
SN DD 10   Khabarovsk 52.63
SN DD 10   Grozovoi 51.97
MN CA 10   Henri IV 51.71
JP CV 10   Hakuryu 48.54
RN CA 10   Minotaur 50.59
SN CA 10   Moskva 50.35
US CA 10   Des Moines 49.63
KM BB 10   Grosser Kurfuerst 49.29
KM DD 10   Z-52 49.19
US CA 10   Worcester 48.92
PA DD 10   Yueyang 48.91
JP DD 10   Shimakaze 48.83
JP DD 10   Harugumo 48.82
JP BB 10   Yamato 48.79
US CV 10   Midway 48.75
JP CA 10   Zao 48.35
KM CA 10   Hindenburg 47.75
MN BB 10   Republique 47.48
US BB 10   Montana 47.11
RN BB 10   Conqueror 47.04
US DD 10   Gearing 46.89

Source: maple.suryp's data from 07/13

 

 

 
 

 

Maple syrup actually doesn't order ships based on WR (indeed, it shows the salem as having a worse WR), and that particular week seems to have a lot of weird numbers; longer time frames show the gearing hovering at around 48.5% for the quarter. 

It's still under performing, though. Honestly it's been creeped by relatively stealthy dds with higher effective dpm (looking at you, Daring, out dpmed by only USN cruisers). A .2km stealth gap between you and certain death isn't exactly a lot, especially when you're slow and forced to run dfaa instead of speed boost. 

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6 minutes ago, 10T0nHammer said:

It's literally in last place in win rate:

  Hide contents
Nation Class Tier premium? Name Win
MN BB 10 P Bourgogne 58.35
SN CA 10 P Stalingrad 56.47
JP CA 10 P Yoshino 48.28
US CA 10 P Salem 46.48
RN DD 10   Daring 56.07
SN BB 10   Kremlin 53.95
RN CV 10   Audacious 50.69
SN DD 10   Khabarovsk 52.63
SN DD 10   Grozovoi 51.97
MN CA 10   Henri IV 51.71
JP CV 10   Hakuryu 48.54
RN CA 10   Minotaur 50.59
SN CA 10   Moskva 50.35
US CA 10   Des Moines 49.63
KM BB 10   Grosser Kurfuerst 49.29
KM DD 10   Z-52 49.19
US CA 10   Worcester 48.92
PA DD 10   Yueyang 48.91
JP DD 10   Shimakaze 48.83
JP DD 10   Harugumo 48.82
JP BB 10   Yamato 48.79
US CV 10   Midway 48.75
JP CA 10   Zao 48.35
KM CA 10   Hindenburg 47.75
MN BB 10   Republique 47.48
US BB 10   Montana 47.11
RN BB 10   Conqueror 47.04
US DD 10   Gearing 46.89

Source: maple.suryp's data from 07/13

 

 

 
 

Edit: The ship has simply been power crept. Why choose Gearing when even the Shima has better guns and torps?

 

By a tiny margin, and while having a large sample size, which skews her stats downward. And conqueror is right down there with her, and we all know badly it needs a buff.

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2 hours ago, axyarthur said:

German 105 mm secondary battery guns mounted on Tirpitz, Bismarck, Graf Zeppelin, and Tier VIII-X cruisers

We’ve increased the armor-penetration capability of their HE shells from 17 to 25 mm. This change will enable 105 mm shells fired by the secondary battery guns of the German ships to penetrate the hull plating of destroyers, cruisers, and Tier VI–VII battleships.

Yeah, it's nice buff, but secondary builds are just not worth it in the current meta. The problem with German BBs now is not secondary guns, but main battery accuracy. They are supposed to be brawlers when they were released, but with the introduction of the RU BBs and their much more accurate guns and tankier hulls against HE, the German BBs seem to be missing a role. So while this buff is nice, it will not change the fact that T8 and T9 German BBs will continue to perform below average due to their lack of main battery potency.

With IFHE you're now able to penetrate 32mm plating though...

 

And to be honest, everything buffing the "useless" Bismarck is a given, low caliber + penetrations everywhere sucks for this ship.

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2 hours ago, DolphinPrincess said:

The German secondary buff is for the potatoes. Some lines are meant to have lower skill curves that are "potato" friendly. In exchange for the lower skill floor that the German BBs have, they come at the cost of a lower skill ceiling. Which means at top level play they will never perform as well as BBs with a high skill ceiling (such as Yamato). German BBs are designed to cater toward potatoes and the buff does exactly that, so Id say its fine.

The nerf to ChungMu was needed, it was a very powerful ship to begin with and its power was further enhanced when aircraft can no longer spot torpedoes (this was a major weakness of DWT)

The buff to YY was not enough, 10 second faster torpedo reload is no where near enough to save her right now, especially considering her pathetic gun power.

The RN BBs change was much needed and welcomed. They will no longer be braindead ships and broadsides deserve to be punished.

The Grozovoi and HIV nerf are not sufficient, they are extremely overpowered right now especially the Grozovoi and 0.2 second nerf is a joke of an attempt.

I actually agree on the points about German & RN BBs.

 

German BBs area IMO the easiest, safest BBs to play.  You can do mistakes in them that just get you rekt on other BB Lines.  They also got among the best secondaries in the game, their speed is respectable.  They are never going to have competitive ranged gunnery coupled with all these benefits.

 

The RN BB changes are sound, they punish mistakes but at the same time, their players that understand BB survival techniques will come out looking better.

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4 hours ago, axyarthur said:

So patch 0.8.6 will bring several balance changes, while some are welcome (Emerald buff), others just seem...misplaced or overdone. I will mentioned a few:

German 105 mm secondary battery guns mounted on Tirpitz, Bismarck, Graf Zeppelin, and Tier VIII-X cruisers

We’ve increased the armor-penetration capability of their HE shells from 17 to 25 mm. This change will enable 105 mm shells fired by the secondary battery guns of the German ships to penetrate the hull plating of destroyers, cruisers, and Tier VI–VII battleships.

Yeah, it's nice buff, but secondary builds are just not worth it in the current meta. The problem with German BBs now is not secondary guns, but main battery accuracy. They are supposed to be brawlers when they were released, but with the introduction of the RU BBs and their much more accurate guns and tankier hulls against HE, the German BBs seem to be missing a role. So while this buff is nice, it will not change the fact that T8 and T9 German BBs will continue to perform below average due to their lack of main battery potency.

 

Agree with this, they deserve a slightly better dispersion/sigma improvement.

Youi can see a fine example  with the tier 8 premium Lenin-Tirptiz.

Lenin: 252m dispersion with 9 guns

Tirpitz: 276m dispersion with 8 guns

 

And for Roon-Hinderburg: quit the nonsense, and give them back their 10 Sec. MB reloading time

 

Edited by Xwing_Red1

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4 hours ago, DolphinPrincess said:

The German secondary buff is for the potatoes. Some lines are meant to have lower skill curves that are "potato" friendly. In exchange for the lower skill floor that the German BBs have, they come at the cost of a lower skill ceiling. Which means at top level play they will never perform as well as BBs with a high skill ceiling (such as Yamato). German BBs are designed to cater toward potatoes and the buff does exactly that, so Id say its fine.

The nerf to ChungMu was needed, it was a very powerful ship to begin with and its power was further enhanced when aircraft can no longer spot torpedoes (this was a major weakness of DWT)

The buff to YY was not enough, 10 second faster torpedo reload is no where near enough to save her right now, especially considering her pathetic gun power.

The RN BBs change was much needed and welcomed. They will no longer be braindead ships and broadsides deserve to be punished.

The Grozovoi and HIV nerf are not sufficient, they are extremely overpowered right now especially the Grozovoi and 0.2 second nerf is a joke of an attempt.

Or they could do something radical and fix their game to make broadsides be what they are, the best protected part of a battleship....

but no, gotta keep that fake “angling” and and combat in reverse meta in the game....

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10-point commanders costing doubloons? Well, WG was eventually going to try something since they don't refund doubloons.

Henri fit neatly into its niche of singling out opponents and bopping them on the head. It doesn't need any buffs or nerfs. It's a freaking ranged terror to BBs already if running IFHE.

Roon/Hindy buff is laughable. Give me back the 8-second reload that is partly why I ground up that line to begin with!

Extra armor pen on German 105s is nice, but the T3-4 protected MM needs to go before I'm inclined to play my Bis/Tirpitz regularly, T8 uptiering is not fun.

Gearing needs better MB velocity, not torp reload buff. Last I fought them, they're mostly a nuisance if more than 8km away.

Grozo nerf is laughable.

Chung Mu and YY players need to quit flipping WG's tables :Smile_trollface:

RN BBs, yes, decent changes--however, Monarch is the black sheep with its pathetic MB accuracy. I hated that inconsistency and was glad to unlock Lion. The buff to RP was definitely necessary.

WG removing the mod. 8 TB from Haku? Such pathetic and foolish thinking! The one reason "flying  Shimakaze" happened? Torp travel distance and TB plane detection. How to fix it? Simple: put IJN TB detection same as fighter and DB. There! No more stealth TB! But no, they cannot even give Haku proper TB, it's just the 2/attack run version that's left. Well done WG, you justified my total conviction that your balancing whatevers are very stupid.

Now WG is looking at some AA tweaks? Very laughable. They should've done this around 8.1 at earliest.

 

Overall, not exactly an inspiring patch. Lot of this is junk NA playerbase didn't ask for.

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The only complaint I have is Duke of York.  She was in need of a buff, not a nerf.  She shouldn't have been released the way she was, and now they make her more susceptible to punishment.  I just don't get it.

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42 minutes ago, SeaborneSumo said:

The only complaint I have is Duke of York.  She was in need of a buff, not a nerf.  She shouldn't have been released the way she was, and now they make her more susceptible to punishment.  I just don't get it.

How is getting an extra heal a nerf? If you were sitting or sailing full broadside long enough for someone to punish you, you were going to be blasted hard anyways.

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5 hours ago, axyarthur said:

Again, these changes miss what is inadequate in the UK BBs

The changes don't address inadequacies.  They address what is considered too strong: that they are nearly immune from broadside citadels.

 

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1 hour ago, comtedumas said:

Or they could do something radical and fix their game to make broadsides be what they are, the best protected part of a battleship....

but no, gotta keep that fake “angling” and and combat in reverse meta in the game....

Let's have no more of that; angling was a real and prescribed action to battleship captains. Here is a DKM example:

Quote

Main combat distance 120-160hm [12-16km]. An angle of the own ship of 3 dez [30°] is desirable. Above 160 240hm effect remains especially against turrets and barbetts. Beyond 230hm increased risk of own vessel due to deck hits, while the opponent is not taking such risk.

Go to page 7 of the attached file for the original German of it. It's a recommendation for a Bismarck fighting a Nelson. I'm sure @SireneRacker can provide more explanation if needed.

Unterlagen_und_Richtlinien_zur_Bestimmung_der_Hauptkampfentfernung_und_der_Geschowahl_Heft_h_Schlach.PDF

 

As for the patch itself, pretty much agree with Dolphin about the BBs.

Edited by MnemonScarlet

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Good nerf on henri and in potatos UK BB.

A buff in gearing is always welcome.

No changes on AA, looks like the CV will still dead for one more patch.

 

A "whatever" patch.

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5 hours ago, Flashtirade said:

Gearing buff - It's something. I don't know if she really needs buffing or not.

Gearing atm is the lowest winrate DD at T10 and she doesn't really have a role. She's not a competitive gunboat, when you have Harugumo with much higher dpm and better arcs and pen, she's not a great torpedo boat, what with YY, Shimakaze and Z-52 around and she's not a great all-rounder, Gorzovoi is better with all her additional perks. She desperately needs torpedo buff to at least be a decent torpedo boat. With the changes and with torp boat build you can get her torp reload to 92 seconds with 71-knot and 13.2 km range (with TA). That will be very nice indeed!

 

Edited by geser98

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