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Ducky_shot

What does it take to make a warship legend???

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Apparently laying mines and then sinking a bunch of small insignificant boats of an occupied nation does!!

image.png.2235b8cf733426822a848b0104c7e5a1.png

Norwegian fishing boats cowered in fear for the duration of the war. To this day, Norwegian fisherman still tell their children stories of K-21 to make them behave

 

Edited by Ducky_shot
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The most tonnage sunk by Russia in the entire war, right here.

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9 minutes ago, KiyoSenkan said:

The most tonnage sunk by Russia in the entire war, right here.

You wish. S-13 has that (dubious) honour, after torpedoing first "Wilhelm Gustloff" while it was ferrying troops and civilians, killing about 9.600 people; then a few days later it also sunk "General Von Steuben", this time with 4.500 dead. And that's how it became the Soviet sub with the highest tonnage sunk. :Smile-angry:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_submarine_S-13

I will take K-21 over S-13 any time of the day....

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Well the glorious soviet navy successfuly defended the motherland of unarmed british fishermen too

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5 minutes ago, taberuco said:

Well the glorious soviet navy successfuly defended the motherland of unarmed british fishermen too

Ahh the Battle of Dogger Bank

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To be fair, when Unrestricted Submarine Warfare takes place, nothing is safe.  Just as U-Boats went after cargo ships, Allied Submarines went after anything that sailed.  It didn't matter if the target was unarmed.  Early on in WWII, even the Germans were kind of "courteous" about it, showing the sub and giving the crew time to disembark the ship before it was sunk.  That didn't last long as the war became more and more heated.  Ships no longer got warning.  It was literally in modern video game terms, "Red is dead."

 

I know the US Submarine force was sinking all kinds of stuff in the Pacific, to include Japanese fishing boats.  With Japan being strangled from her overseas resources, to include food, sinking those fishing boats will help starve an island nation that was heavily dependent on imported food.

 

U-Boat sinking what appears to be an American ship.  Doesn't look like a warship to me.

battle-of-the-atlantic-large-56a61bf63df78cf7728b6283.jpg

Yep, doesn't look like a warship to me.

Related image

Image result for us submarine world war 2 sinking fishing boat japan

 

As for the Soviet Submarine sinking Wilhelm Gusloff:  "As Wilhelm Gustloff had been fitted with anti-aircraft guns, and the Germans, in obedience to the rules of war, did not mark her as a hospital ship, no notification of her operating in a hospital capacity had been given and, as she was transporting military personnel, she did not have any protection as a hospital ship under international accords."

 

It's a tragedy, but it also must be said that the Western Allies also had a long history of using even Cruise Ships for military purposes, even going back into WWI.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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21 minutes ago, KiyoSenkan said:

Ahh the Battle of Dogger Bank

That was just the beginning of a whole saga that could easily be a comedy if it wasn't true. I feel bad for that Russian Admiral...

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5 minutes ago, Cpt_Cupcake said:

That was just the beginning of a whole saga that could easily be a comedy if it wasn't true. I feel bad for that Russian Admiral...

Who are you kidding? It's a comedy because it's true.

Especially with WG trying to sell the Russian navy as just as good as everyone else.

The smallest dog barks the loudest, as the saying goes.

Edited by KiyoSenkan

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10 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

To be fair, when Unrestricted Submarine Warfare takes place, nothing is safe.  Just as U-Boats went after cargo ships, Allied Submarines went after anything that sailed.  It didn't matter if the target was unarmed. 

JP brought that onto themselves.   If you don't want to get mauled, don't throw stones at the bear. Dec 7, 1941 was arguably one of, if not the worst decision any country has ever made.

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I could point to tiny Dutch sloops that an order of magnitude more ... Yet she isn't getting a Naval Legends. Makes me sad.

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5 minutes ago, NoSoMo said:

JP brought that onto themselves.   If you don't want to get mauled, don't throw stones at the bear. Dec 7, 1941 was arguably one of, if not the worst decision any country has ever made.

Yeah but at least that country had a navy worth fighting when they did it.

Can't say the same for Russia.

Edited by KiyoSenkan

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1 hour ago, KiyoSenkan said:

The most tonnage sunk by Russia in the entire war, right here.

Don’t forget how the Soviet Union saved the world from Hitler

 

Quote

 

In his memoirs, Eisenhower was appalled by the extent of the carnage:

When we flew into Russia, in 1945, I did not see a house standing between the western borders of the country and the area around Moscow. Through this overrun region, Marshal Zhukov told me, so many numbers of women, children and old men had been killed that the Russian Government would never be able to estimate the total.

 

Two things:

That latter may seem cruel but if you want to stop a war then you need to stop the other side's ability to make war and that means stopping their food supply. Those fishing boats were valid military targets.

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Let's bring up RMS Lusitania in 1915, a Cruise Ship sinking that Imperial Germany got a lot of flak for.  For ages the Germans get kicked about sinking a ship full of civilians.  The Germans maintained she was secretly shipping wartime supplies, munitions, etc.   The British said she never did.  Americans were killed aboard Lusitania and helped drive US sentiment towards war with Germany.  Decades later the truth comes out.  She was indeed stock full of munitions.

 

I'm thinking for the Soviet Submarine commander, it's not a hospital ship he saw with Wilhelm Guslof, but a ship that was transporting German troops, equipment, etc.

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20 minutes ago, KiyoSenkan said:

Who are you kidding? It's a comedy because it's true.

Especially with WG trying to sell the Russian navy as just as good as everyone else.

The smallest dog barks the loudest, as the saying goes.

The hardware was good, the training not so much.

Too many hereditary and political officer postings and logistical corruption didn't help either.

Admiral Yi could probably sympathize with Admiral Rozhestvensky on the political machination aspect.

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16 minutes ago, DracoTB said:

 

We're not discussing their army.

5 minutes ago, Cpt_Cupcake said:

The hardware was good, the training not so much.

Too many hereditary and political officer postings and logistical corruption didn't help either.

Admiral Yi could probably sympathize with Admiral Rozhestvensky on the political machination aspect.

The training was ghastly and the equipment was decent when it was built, but terribly outdated by the time it was used. Russia's navy has consistently been about a decade behind other world powers in development because they, as a nation, do not necessarily need a navy. They can just march an army most places.

 

An island nation like England or Japan, or a country halfway around the world from everyone else like America? Different story.

 

Honestly after Tsushima, Russia only started to care about a navy again in the 50s when it became apparent that just marching over to America wasn't feasible.

Edited by KiyoSenkan

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While this just turned into the usual "Who did more war crimes" post (and missing the topic by a moon's orbit), the reason why the sub is  a naval legend: no other VMF ship sunk more other ships in total.

A very questionable legends clip announcement. Maybe the real 2 hour clip will tell us why she is worthy of this title.

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16 minutes ago, KiyoSenkan said:

The training was ghastly and the equipment was decent when it was built, but terribly outdated by the time it was used. Russia's navy has consistently been about a decade behind other world powers in development because they, as a nation, do not necessarily need a navy. They can just march an army most places.

In regards to being outdated, it was arguably during a time when ships were being render obsolete before they were completed. That said, Adm. Roz refused to take the truly outdated and poorly maintained, even purposely hiding at one point when they were sent as reinforcements. The training was woeful, thou he was handicapped from rectifying that by orders not to waste ammo... not that they didn't anyway shooting at everything to include themselves. Their army was in a similar position.

16 minutes ago, KiyoSenkan said:

Honestly after Tsushima, Russia only started to care about a navy again in the 50s when it became apparent that just marching over to America wasn't feasible.

They were constantly trying to have a competitive navy. Financial and political forces lead them to do too many compromises that made no one happy. I do believe there was to be a major ship building project planned for 1905-10 that got sidelined by the Russo-Japanese war. The Russians really suck at their timing.

Edited by Cpt_Cupcake
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14 minutes ago, Erebthoron said:

While this just turned into the usual "Who did more war crimes" post (and missing the topic by a moon's orbit), the reason why the sub is  a naval legend: no other VMF ship sunk more other ships in total.

A very questionable legends clip announcement. Maybe the real 2 hour clip will tell us why she is worthy of this title.

 

1 hour ago, Ducky_shot said:

Apparently laying mines and then sinking a bunch of small insignificant boats of an occupied nation does!!

image.png.2235b8cf733426822a848b0104c7e5a1.png

Norwegian fishing boats cowered in fear for the duration of the war. To this day, Norwegian fisherman still tell their children stories of K-21 to make them behave

 

Freighter. Boat. DDE. Boat. Boat. Boat. Boat. Boat. Boat. Boat. Boat. Freighter. Boat.

 

It sank 2 unarmed ships, 1 actual threat, and 10 small unarmed civilian boats/trawlers

 

Thanks you just made this even funnier.

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12 minutes ago, KiyoSenkan said:

 

Freighter. Boat. DDE. Boat. Boat. Boat. Boat. Boat. Boat. Boat. Boat. Freighter. Boat.

 

It sank 2 unarmed ships, 1 actual threat, and 10 small unarmed civilian boats/trawlers

 

Thanks you just made this even funnier.

Sorry, couldn't take this K-21 stuff serious.

Some got their name as a legend because they took part in many battles (like the Warspite), fought valiantly (like the USS Johnston), had a tragic end (like the Arizona) or were unique (like the Yamato).

Calling a VMF sub, that clubbed seals, a legendary ship to pamper the Russian players: not even close to a good ship, far from being a legend. 

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Still waiting for that Leningrad Legends video, considering it's about the only ship in the Soviet Navy at the time of the GPW to be worthy of the Legend name.

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25 minutes ago, KiyoSenkan said:

 

Freighter. Boat. DDE. Boat. Boat. Boat. Boat. Boat. Boat. Boat. Boat. Freighter. Boat.

 

It sank 2 unarmed ships, 1 actual threat, and 10 small unarmed civilian boats/trawlers

 

Thanks you just made this even funnier.

Even better, the 3 ships of substance that it "sank" were done so passively with mines.... It risked the lives of everyone on board to sink that DDE.... :P

Edited by Ducky_shot

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2 hours ago, warheart1992 said:

You wish. S-13 has that (dubious) honour, after torpedoing first "Wilhelm Gustloff" while it was ferrying troops and civilians, killing about 9.600 people; then a few days later it also sunk "General Von Steuben", this time with 4.500 dead. And that's how it became the Soviet sub with the highest tonnage sunk. :Smile-angry:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_submarine_S-13

I will take K-21 over S-13 any time of the day....

:Smile_teethhappy: Party orders comrade. Fascist escape not Soviet arbitration - no matter the costs...

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44 minutes ago, KiyoSenkan said:

We're not discussing their army.

Doesn't matter which of the forces they were in - their people were being slaughtered and the opposing side needed to be fed which is what those fishing boats were doing which makes them valid military targets. I did say it wasn't nice but that is the reality of war.

And, yes, the Russian Navy also helped win the war and so you have no reason to insult it.

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13 minutes ago, TornadoADV said:

Still waiting for that Leningrad Legends video, considering it's about the only ship in the Soviet Navy at the time of the GPW to be worthy of the Legend name.

Maybe the Gremyashchy also. While she wasn't great at sinking stuff, she had a fair number of the arctic escort missions under her belt.

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War, in general, is typically a bad idea.

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