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Reymu

Hey WG, statement on CV rework and next direction?

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Simply, I'm confused. First you release reworked FPS CV in such easy mode anyone can pick it up and freak out other players because such agile planes and AA is only a threat if fly in straight lines. Then repeated strings of nerfs over 6 months, then finally you decide wait, AA isn't effective enough, lets have the cont. damage focus only 1 plane.

I rather enjoyed the FPS CV. Felt more involved, and planes dying put on the pressure to aim well and release. AA seemed reasonable, flak generally eradicates your planes in seconds if fly in straight line, but cont. damage being spread out wasn't effective, and didn't help that most players had trouble positioning to put long- or mid-range AA over teammate while also covered against incoming shells/torps (though that's mostly from existing maps as well as planes relocating easily).

After testing my CVs in training room vs. bots (Ryjujo, Midway, Haku, Impalacable), the cont. damage is extremely effective. Multiple attack runs save vs. stock, HE-spammed, or AA-off no longer works. The only help offered is just a small buff to SE that hardly matters from the little I tested. Shouldn't all the planes attack at once if they're this quickly wrecked?

It feels like you killed your own rework. Last T8-10 matches I played (about 2 weeks ago), hardly any CVs. Hear tell T4 and 6 CVs are still around, but if MapleStory site is anything to go by, what's the appeal grinding CV line when AA feels OP at times? It'd have been prudent to design CVs around spotting role if that's what you ultimately nerfed them to, you know.

So simply, what's the next direction? I thought of a new mechanic to flak (3 hits doesn't kill plane, just panics pilot and he flies back to your CV, requires 30 seconds individually to calm down), but know what, why ask? You kept sledgehammering CV with nerfs instead of realizing the chief problem isn't CV design, it's that AA wasn't updated sufficiently so that a full AA build works as deterrent. AFT, for example, should not have buffed flak damage, it should at minimum increased long-range AA's reach as well as single-firing flak to ensure that once CV makes attack run (which requires straight line), his planes are gonna get hit hard.

I'm not convinced you're looking for more feedback either. Lot of good ones here like my suggestion to offer AA choices or delayed spotting on planes (same as you did to radar), but all ignored. So just asking what's next? You don't have the same standard of what's "fun" as rest of playerbase, it seems, much less find a decent middle ground. Totally lost confidence you even know what you're doing.

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8 minutes ago, Reymu said:

<massive wall of text>

Here are your answers starting at 20:57.

 

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45 minutes ago, Reymu said:

Simply, I'm confused.

Well, you've been around too long to really be confused, so what I'm thinking is that you are actually incredulous. That WoW has raked in all that premium money from their Carrier collections and now doesn't give a bit of care more about their CVs than they do their nerf-batted IJN DDs. Which I can understand as it is cold blooded and calculating and doesn't even give a nod nor a wink to those loyal players who spent some big bucks on these ships. (Though in a way that is kind of ironic as I have seen many responses from you to other players which were just as hard lined as these sales tactics. Funny how what comes around goes around, huh?) Any ways, what with WoWs being so famous for sharing their future plans for anything I guess it will sort of boil down to a "wait and see" type of thing unless you can bribe a CC or some one else connected with the game. Good luck with that.

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I don't think delaying air spotting is a good move in any regard, spotting is basically the only thing a CV is good at anymore.   

I'd like to see damage increased personally, since every flight follows this pattern right now:

Take off, drop all but last 2 attacks into the water (changes a little if you intend to slingshot, but you still do the same effective thing)

Do one attack on the most vulnerable target you can find, press F instantly upon firing

Repeat.

Multiple attacks are impossible until the very late game against very isolated targets, if thats the way it has to be, okay, but it would be nice if my DPM wasn't 5k every 2 minutes.

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8.5 killed carrier play for all but the unicum level players. I have purple stats in Kaga myself and can’t bring myself to spend time in it. It’s just boring now. Launch squad, drop most into water, make one run and lose everything in the process or don’t drop in water and make one pass anyways and -still- lose most of the planes. Flying in circles to spot things isn’t fun nor does it work well when some of the stronger AA ships have the same air detection range as their AA. Flying planes from flattop to target takes enough time as it is... then when you make that good pass and hit with all them Glorious Kaga Torpedos and do 12k then lose the squad without dropping anything else? Hard pass. AA needed some adjustments for everyone else’s sake to deal with CVs but currently some of these carriers when uptiered may as well not even participate. Unless you find it fun to fly in circles and watch everyone else shoot things.

Of the T10s I have, Audi never really quite clicked with me since the planes are slow af and supposedly tank damage better but still die painfully fast now and it doesn’t have the reserves or planes on deck to make it work for me. I can still make Midway work most of the time but depending on team matchup it can still be regulated to the spotting role for the first half of the match. I maybe have played any of my CVs 10 matches since 8.5 dropped. Most of that was just to see how much the change impacted carrier play. After seeing how fast some of these planes are dying off I just don’t feel like putting the work in for such little reward. 

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We already know their next steps. 0.8.6 will bring in synchronized continuous damage. By 0.8.7 we should have the "skill based" AA system in which you face the planes with the camera and press a button for instant burst damage.

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14 minutes ago, Skuggsja said:

We already know their next steps. 0.8.6 will bring in synchronized continuous damage. By 0.8.7 we should have the "skill based" AA system in which you face the planes with the camera and press a button for instant burst damage.

“Skill based” aka do you have a brain and can look in the right direction...

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19 minutes ago, Skuggsja said:

We already know their next steps. 0.8.6 will bring in synchronized continuous damage. By 0.8.7 we should have the "skill based" AA system in which you face the planes with the camera and press a button for instant burst damage.

Both all but guaranteed to put the already plummeting CV player totals down even further into the basement.   

Being able to escape the edges of AA when you stumble on a Mino (who's detection = AA range) is one of the few saving graces CVs have right now, 8.6 will end that, ensuring the moment I spot those AA ships I'll have already lost 2+ planes, which sounds incredibly stupid.

The 8.7 "burst damage" and enhanced EZ-mode sector AA takes an already overpowered AA system and buffs it further, there is also no way for the CV player to know the surface ship is even doing this action, so it cannot ever be baited out or avoided.     The only thing we can effectively bait is DFAA cause the red clouds give it away, but this burst AA mechanic won't have any tell at all, and its so easy to use you can be sure that attempting to drop on anything will result in a total wipe of planes.

CVs were fun for a few months though...I guess...

Edited by Zenn3k
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They plan on buffing AA further...

...which is so incompetent that at any well run company, the development staff would be out on the street within days...

...but this is WG. So carriers will remain the most awful class to play, like they have been for years.

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WG can spend the next 20 years trying to balance CV's, and you know what? It will never happen.

CV's do not belong in a Gun vs Gun game, they need a game mode of their own.

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9 minutes ago, JustAdapt said:

“Skill based” aka do you have a brain and can look in the right direction...

Yep basically. The hardest part will be remembering to lock your turrets the direction you want.

Funny how many cries there were for a skilled based AA system, but it all stopped when the damage was focused on one plane. It's not about counter play it's about shooting down planes and avoiding damage.

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9 minutes ago, Zenn3k said:

Both all but guaranteed to put the already plummeting CV player totals down even further into the basement.   

Being able to escape the edges of AA when you stumble on a Mino (who's detection = AA range) is one of the few saving graces CVs have right now, 8.6 will end that, ensuring the moment I spot those AA ships I'll have already lost 2+ planes, which sounds incredibly stupid.

The 8.7 "burst damage" and enhanced EZ-mode sector AA takes an already overpowered AA system and buffs it further, there is also no way for the CV player to know the surface ship is even doing this action, so it cannot ever be baited out or avoided.     The only thing we can effectively bait is DFAA cause the red clouds give it away, but this burst AA mechanic won't have any tell at all, and its so easy to use you can be sure that attempting to drop on anything will result in a total wipe of planes.

CVs were fun for a few months though...I guess...

Yep sounds about right.

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5 minutes ago, Turbotush said:

WG can spend the next 20 years trying to balance CV's, and you know what? It will never happen.

CV's do not belong in a Gun vs Gun game, they need a game mode of their own.

This^

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6 minutes ago, Turbotush said:

WG can spend the next 20 years trying to balance CV's, and you know what? It will never happen.

CV's do not belong in a Gun vs Gun game, they need a game mode of their own.

 

1 minute ago, awiggin said:

This^

That's inherently wrong. You realize how many more complex games there are that are balanced with 10 times the amount of content?

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Just now, Skuggsja said:

 

That's inherently wrong. You realize how many more complex games there are that are balanced with 10 times the amount of content?

And they aren't WOWS. After 4 years, they've been completely incapable of balancing  CV's, they've lost 50% of their player base and are farther away than ever....And they actually tried to roll out PTW....:Smile_teethhappy:

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9 minutes ago, Skuggsja said:

Yep basically. The hardest part will be remembering to lock your turrets the direction you want.

Funny how many cries there were for a skilled based AA system, but it all stopped when the damage was focused on one plane. It's not about counter play it's about shooting down planes and avoiding damage.

Yup, it all comes down to "I'm being attacked when I don't want to be attacked, therefore OVERPOWERED".

Doesn't matter that a CV landing 6+ Torpedoes on you does less damage than a single Battleship AP volley, the fact they were being hit at all was too much to deal with.

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4 minutes ago, Skuggsja said:

 

That's inherently wrong. You realize how many more complex games there are that are balanced with 10 times the amount of content?

There is not one game I can think of that is this slow paced that has 3% of its player base (CV players) being coddled and protected and forced on the rest of the player base for the soul propose of recouping the time and monies that was put into a play stile or unit (like CV's) that dose not even remotely fit the game.

 

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50 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

They plan on buffing AA further...

...which is so incompetent that at any well run company, the development staff would be out on the street within days...

...but this is WG. So carriers will remain the most awful class to play, like they have been for years.

They'd be out on the street for angering less than 10% of their player base but pleasing everyone else?

We've already seen what happens when CV's are strong:  they make every other ship type unenjoyable to play.  That's why the initial rollout of the rework was a catastrophe.

If CV's are good at dealing damage, the fact that they're also inherently the best spotters and the safest ships in the game just makes them absolutely dominant with no real counters.  But if they're not good at dealing damage they end up unpopular and rarely played.  If WG has to choose one of those, they'd be wise to choose the latter.  The game can survive with CV's being rarely played; it's done that for most of its life already.  It won't survive long with CV's being significantly stronger than all other ship types.

Edited by Vaidency
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2 hours ago, Turbotush said:

WG can spend the next 20 years trying to balance CV's, and you know what? It will never happen.

CV's do not belong in a Gun vs Gun game, they need a game mode of their own.

If this was a gun v gun game, why is it marketed as a WW2 game?

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1 hour ago, Vaidency said:

They'd be out on the street for angering less than 10% of their player base but pleasing everyone else?

We've already seen what happens when CV's are strong:  they make every other ship type unenjoyable to play.  That's why the initial rollout of the rework was a catastrophe.

If CV's are good at dealing damage, the fact that they're also inherently the best spotters and the safest ships in the game just makes them absolutely dominant with no real counters.  But if they're not good at dealing damage they end up unpopular and rarely played.  If WG has to choose one of those, they'd be wise to choose the latter.  The game can survive with CV's being rarely played; it's done that for most of its life already.  It won't survive long with CV's being significantly stronger than all other ship types.

Im a BB main. I want CVs in game, as they make it better.

Whoops. Better find a new argument.

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The problem as I see it is that the gameplay is very stale when there are no carriers present to locate ships and keep players "honest" in their positioning.   

Without CVs there is basically no reason why as a torpedo DD you shouldn't automatically go "wide" every single game, go get on the battleship flanks and throw walls of skill at them, its the most effective way to play.   CVs keep that in check by spotting and telling those BBs "hey, there is a DD right here, react to it", where previously the only way they'd know was when the aforementioned wall of skill starts beeping at them 1 KM away with no possible way to react and they explode.    Fantastic for the destroyer, absolute [edited] for the Battleship.    CVs level that a bit, they keep the DDs honest by not allowing them COMPLETE MAP CONTROL that can only be undone by finding another DD or someone having radar.   

It keeps the island campers honest as well, since a target sitting still with only 1 way out makes for a pretty easy target to attack with the heavier ammo of torpedoes (less effective because sector to only attack side) and DB from over an island can punish them.   This is good.   A DM or Wooster parked behind and island throwing HE shells without ever being spotted is pretty unfair for the opposing team.   The CV spotting them gives the other ships a chance to at LEAST fire over the island and attempt to hit them, if nothing else.   

Plus all the turning ships do to try and avoid CV drops often exposes their broadsides to the enemy and allows them to be shot at when before they might have had an angle that made it very hard to return fire.

The impact a CV has on the game changes it, but mostly for the better, because otherwise the games turn very stale and become solely about which team can have the last DD alive so that DD can provide spotting (that the other team will completely lack) to dominate the rest of the match.    Without CVs every single game is determined by which team keeps their DDs alive the longest, first team to lose their DDs loses the match in 90% of cases, I've seen it over and over.   CVs fill in that gap by providing spotting regardless of the teams DD status, and since both teams usually have a CV until the very end of the game, its balanced out, BOTH teams get spotting, instead of the team that manages to keep 1 DD alive.   

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19 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Im a BB main. I want CVs in game, as they make it better.

Whoops. Better find a new argument.

I don't need a new argument.  I'm not debating; I'm telling you what WG is most likely going to do and I'm sure you know it's true.  The player base of WOWS has been speaking loud and clear for years through their play choices, and WG is a very data-driven company.  CV's are by far the least popular ship type, even when they're overpowered. 

If they cannot be balanced (and I believe they cannot because they simply ignore too many of the balancing factors used for other ships) then they will be nerfed into the ground.  WG will sacrifice them to keep the overwhelming majority of players who don't play them regularly happy.  Like I said, we've already seen what happens when CV's are strong.  It's a disaster.  If they have to choose overpowered or underpowered, they will choose underpowered.

Edited by Vaidency

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I do like that AA is strong, finally, and don't believe plane health should be buffed too much. AA ships *should* be threatening.

That being said, plane reserves and refresh rate should be buffed considerably to compensate. 

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48 minutes ago, Vaidency said:

I don't need a new argument.  I'm not debating; I'm telling you what WG is most likely going to do and I'm sure you know it's true.  The player base of WOWS has been speaking loud and clear for years through their play choices, and WG is a very data-driven company.  CV's are by far the least popular ship type, even when they're overpowered. 

If they cannot be balanced (and I believe they cannot because they simply ignore too many of the balancing factors used for other ships) then they will be nerfed into the ground.  WG will sacrifice them to keep the overwhelming majority of players who don't play them regularly happy.  Like I said, we've already seen what happens when CV's are strong.  It's a disaster.  If they have to choose overpowered or underpowered, they will choose underpowered.

Yes, the playerbase will succeed in killing their own game.

Ah well...

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