Jump to content
You need to play a total of 5 battles to post in this section.
Infinite_Havoc

CV and the balancing myth

29 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

36
[DENY]
Members
8 posts
503 battles

Dear War Gaming, 

I am going to write you this open letter to explain to you what should have been obvious a long time ago. You cannot balance CV's in this game.  

            This is a surface warship game. I say that because 3 of your classes within the game are based on surface warship classes which carried weapons to destroy one another with direct fire weapons.  I think everyone is well aware that Aircraft Carriers changed the face of Naval warfare especially Surface to Surface warfare forever.  It made the Battleship all but obsolete and forced the Navy's of the world To transform their Cruisers and Destroyers into largely escort ships for the Carriers. It is no coincidence that the last active currently commissioned ship to fire its weapons and sink another surface ship in the US Navy is the USS Constitution an 1800's wood frigate.  You are chasing your tail on this one. You keep buffing this Nerfing that, tweaking the AA then giving planes more Hp and then you go back to the "data" to see what else needs to be done. Not only have you now spent 5 updates on this you have had to issue at least 3 hotfixes to my knowledge.  And even if you could "balance "this class with the others which you can't your rework of CV's failed to fix a major stated goal. To decrease the skill gap.  It is still the case that if your team has a less skilled player and the other team has a good to a great skilled player playing CV that player can dominate a match and have too much influence on the outcome. And you won't see all of that in your data either. Why? because there are many things a good CV player does that does not show up in the stats very well.  Yes, the RTS version of carriers was stronger than this version but at least we only saw them once in a while. To me having one game out of 5 or 10 where I have to deal with a CV and potentially a unicum player at that is a hell of a lot better than seeing them every single game.  

 

They cannot be balanced due to the very nature of them. This game and many of its strategies rely on stealth at least in the first few minutes. every time you try and get into a position or reposition you are spotted if the CV player decides to focus that side. If you are getting low on Hp and need to go dark that's not happening in a CV match. The damage they do themselves is not overpowered its the spotting and map control they still possess. 

At some point, you need to admit defeat. At some point, you need to put a poll out there and see how many of your CUSTOMERS would be ok with just getting rid of CV's. You all are being stubborn and in my opinion, you are not listening to your customers about what they want. I mean hell you got Clans protesting by changing their clan name to NO CV and one of your best and most popular CCs who has the same thought.  The group of people who used to play RTS CV's was a small one. And I realize you were trying to make it easier to play and expand that player base. But you have done it at the expense of the majority of your player base.  Yes, a lot more play CV now. But Destroyers are all but gone from the game and people now have to only play the ships that they feel can deal with the planes and being Spotted all the time So a lot of ships sit in port and don't get played at all. Ships that used to be someones favorite or go to ship.  

 

If you insist on keeping CVs which I am sure you do then here are some thoughts on attempting to Balance them against surface ships. 

1) spotting: Like radar now has a 6-second delay you could do the same with ships spotted by aircraft. I know this is an arcade game but it is one based on real ships and real tactics etc and in real life if a plane of any type spotted a ship or ships it would take a hell of a long time to get that info to the MFIC's. In-game it should be the same. I would say 12 to 15 seconds where all the team saw was a dotted outline of a ship not giving its class, or any other info for 15 seconds or so would go a long way to balancing the spotting problem. And it would bring back DD players. 

2) Frequency of attacks: Right now a Cv can strike you and be back in less than a minute to do it again.  So when a CV is either done with his or her attack or has hit the return to carrier key make the player fly those last planes back to the carrier before launching new ones. 

3) endless range. Right now a Cv player can fly the entire map if they want to in a pretty short period of time.  Providing tons of info for their team. Make planes have a fuel range.  If the player does not return before that range expires his planes ditch and it takes twice as long to get them back. 

4) AA, with all these changes above you would need to back off the AA a bit. You could also make it that if its a Tier 8 CV in a game with mostly or all tens the planes hp gets an automatic 25% buff. 

 

  • Cool 9
  • Confused 1
  • Boring 21

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,297
[PN]
Beta Testers
8,144 posts
20,029 battles

@Infinite_Havoc CVs can be balanced but not by means of the garbage ReBork! They need to revert to the old system and adjust CV weapons damage in Public Testing until it is reasonable. Also get rid of manual drops and strafing. 

  • Cool 1
  • Confused 4
  • Boring 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
190
[MLPVA]
Members
331 posts
3,876 battles

Your suggestions have already been made before several times over.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,112
[PEED2]
Beta Testers
4,811 posts
13,851 battles

1Spotting - You can only spot or atack in the cv, if you reduce the spot planes its going need reduce the AA range too, choise one.

2. Frequency of attacks - Community ask for this and get this, people was crying the cvs was doing "rtoo much dev strikes" then wg change to dot and small and continuous atacks, carefull with what you ask.

3. Endless range - Give the cvs a yamato armor and capacity of atack ever 30 seconds with a high alpha i will not going care for 30km range.

4. They need put +1/-1 MM for cvs, thats fix most of AA problems atm.

  • Boring 1
  • Angry 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,732
[GWG]
Members
6,506 posts
1 minute ago, CAPTMUDDXX said:

@Infinite_Havoc CVs can be balanced but not by means of the garbage ReBork! They need to revert to the old system and adjust CV weapons damage in Public Testing until it is reasonable. Also get rid of manual drops and strafing. 

I tend to agree about manual drops and strafing.  This item was very dependent on lag, and generally favored those folks close to the servers.

I did a lot of these, but the timing was always skewed.  There were a lot of misses due to the commands 'not taking' when I hit the buttons.  By then, the alignment was off.

So I compensate..  then the lag problem improves...  change again.

The newer system is more forgiving of this issue, except for the 'skip-drop' trick to drop a set - say 10KM out, then ready for another..  That is highly lag dependent on the commands taking right away, or the target will be overshot.

There seems to be a lot less RNG in the new system.  It's mostly skill based.  I think they will add those malfunctions as soon as they find a balance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,478
[DEV_X]
Supertester
2,204 posts
20,702 battles
35 minutes ago, Infinite_Havoc said:

This is a surface warship game. 

A silly argument. Where does it say anything about a "surface warship game." ? Also, if they can balance dragons and trolls or lasers and photon torpedoes on other games I'm pretty sure they can balance CVs. If you want something so one dimensional and limited there are mobile games that might fit the bill.

According to Wargaming's description:

"Immerse yourself in the world of epic naval warfare and command legendary warships from the early 20th century in a free-to-play massively multiplayer online game.

According to wikipedia:

"World of Warships is a free-to-play naval warfare-themed massively multiplayer online game produced and published by Wargaming following the earlier games World of Tanks andWorld of Warplanes."

According to steam:

"Experience epic, free-to-play naval combat when you helm one of over 200 historic vessels in an exciting balance of strategy and real-time combat in World of Warships. Outfit your fleet with flags, camouflage, modifications, talented commanders, and more!"

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
159
[SHPFC]
Members
224 posts
7,359 battles
1 hour ago, Infinite_Havoc said:

And even if you could "balance "this class with the others which you can't your rework of CV's failed to fix a major stated goal. To decrease the skill gap.

Was to get more CV Captains. But I here what your saying.

1 hour ago, Infinite_Havoc said:

The damage they do themselves is not overpowered its the spotting and map control they still possess. 

They have Less map control now than they had Pre-Re-Work.

1 hour ago, Infinite_Havoc said:

The group of people who used to play RTS CV's was a small one. And I realize you were trying to make it easier to play and expand that player base. But you have done it at the expense of the majority of your player base.  Yes, a lot more play CV now.

The number of players using CV's is closer to Pre-Re-Work than you think. It was a small base of players due to the Skill gap. 

1 hour ago, Infinite_Havoc said:

But Destroyers are all but gone from the game

You will need to provide me proof of this since they are in EVERY game. Where the CV's your complaining about are just about all but gone.

1 hour ago, Infinite_Havoc said:

If you insist on keeping CVs which I am sure you do then here are some thoughts on attempting to Balance them against surface ships. 

1) spotting: Like radar now has a 6-second delay you could do the same with ships spotted by aircraft. I know this is an arcade game but it is one based on real ships and real tactics etc and in real life if a plane of any type spotted a ship or ships it would take a hell of a long time to get that info to the MFIC's. In-game it should be the same. I would say 12 to 15 seconds where all the team saw was a dotted outline of a ship not giving its class, or any other info for 15 seconds or so would go a long way to balancing the spotting problem. And it would bring back DD players. 

2) Frequency of attacks: Right now a Cv can strike you and be back in less than a minute to do it again.  So when a CV is either done with his or her attack or has hit the return to carrier key make the player fly those last planes back to the carrier before launching new ones. 

3) endless range. Right now a Cv player can fly the entire map if they want to in a pretty short period of time.  Providing tons of info for their team. Make planes have a fuel range.  If the player does not return before that range expires his planes ditch and it takes twice as long to get them back. 

4) AA, with all these changes above you would need to back off the AA a bit. You could also make it that if its a Tier 8 CV in a game with mostly or all tens the planes hp gets an automatic 25% buff. 

And this mess of stuff. Calling for more Nerfs. That is one reason you see less of the CV's. I stopped playing them 3 patches ago do to the amount of nerfs and hot-fixes. You should really play them before saying anything about the rate of attacks. Takes longer than a minute to traverse the map. Even if you gave Tier 8 CV's a 25% HP buff to the air craft they would still be slaughtered. 

 

1 hour ago, HyenaHiena said:

They need put +1/-1 MM for cvs, thats fix most of AA problems atm.

Agree said that they say they can't. Would promote to long a wait time to get a match.

1 hour ago, CAPTMUDDXX said:

They need to revert to the old system and adjust CV weapons damage in Public Testing until it is reasonable. Also get rid of manual drops and strafing.

Agree. Accept with the Manual drop that does take a little skill kind of like aiming your guns to get that good hit. Strafing is why you had so few CV captains before re-work. A Uni CV captain would easily de-plane his opponent. If Manual drops are to be done away with. Then the aiming for ships should be left to RNG as well with a point and click interface. Bet you would be begging to get the aiming back before you have 5 matches in.

 

 

Frosty.

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,156
[TARK]
Members
4,263 posts
1,630 battles
1 hour ago, Infinite_Havoc said:

Dear War Gaming, 

I am going to write you this open letter to explain to you what should have been obvious a long time ago. You cannot balance CV's in this game.  

            This is a surface warship game. I say that because 3 of your classes within the game are based on surface warship classes which carried weapons to destroy one another with direct fire weapons.  I think everyone is well aware that Aircraft Carriers changed the face of Naval warfare especially Surface to Surface warfare forever.  It made the Battleship all but obsolete and forced the Navy's of the world To transform their Cruisers and Destroyers into largely escort ships for the Carriers. It is no coincidence that the last active currently commissioned ship to fire its weapons and sink another surface ship in the US Navy is the USS Constitution an 1800's wood frigate.  You are chasing your tail on this one. You keep buffing this Nerfing that, tweaking the AA then giving planes more Hp and then you go back to the "data" to see what else needs to be done. Not only have you now spent 5 updates on this you have had to issue at least 3 hotfixes to my knowledge.  And even if you could "balance "this class with the others which you can't your rework of CV's failed to fix a major stated goal. To decrease the skill gap.  It is still the case that if your team has a less skilled player and the other team has a good to a great skilled player playing CV that player can dominate a match and have too much influence on the outcome. And you won't see all of that in your data either. Why? because there are many things a good CV player does that does not show up in the stats very well.  Yes, the RTS version of carriers was stronger than this version but at least we only saw them once in a while. To me having one game out of 5 or 10 where I have to deal with a CV and potentially a unicum player at that is a hell of a lot better than seeing them every single game.  

 

They cannot be balanced due to the very nature of them. This game and many of its strategies rely on stealth at least in the first few minutes. every time you try and get into a position or reposition you are spotted if the CV player decides to focus that side. If you are getting low on Hp and need to go dark that's not happening in a CV match. The damage they do themselves is not overpowered its the spotting and map control they still possess. 

At some point, you need to admit defeat. At some point, you need to put a poll out there and see how many of your CUSTOMERS would be ok with just getting rid of CV's. You all are being stubborn and in my opinion, you are not listening to your customers about what they want. I mean hell you got Clans protesting by changing their clan name to NO CV and one of your best and most popular CCs who has the same thought.  The group of people who used to play RTS CV's was a small one. And I realize you were trying to make it easier to play and expand that player base. But you have done it at the expense of the majority of your player base.  Yes, a lot more play CV now. But Destroyers are all but gone from the game and people now have to only play the ships that they feel can deal with the planes and being Spotted all the time So a lot of ships sit in port and don't get played at all. Ships that used to be someones favorite or go to ship.  

 

If you insist on keeping CVs which I am sure you do then here are some thoughts on attempting to Balance them against surface ships. 

1) spotting: Like radar now has a 6-second delay you could do the same with ships spotted by aircraft. I know this is an arcade game but it is one based on real ships and real tactics etc and in real life if a plane of any type spotted a ship or ships it would take a hell of a long time to get that info to the MFIC's. In-game it should be the same. I would say 12 to 15 seconds where all the team saw was a dotted outline of a ship not giving its class, or any other info for 15 seconds or so would go a long way to balancing the spotting problem. And it would bring back DD players. 

2) Frequency of attacks: Right now a Cv can strike you and be back in less than a minute to do it again.  So when a CV is either done with his or her attack or has hit the return to carrier key make the player fly those last planes back to the carrier before launching new ones. 

3) endless range. Right now a Cv player can fly the entire map if they want to in a pretty short period of time.  Providing tons of info for their team. Make planes have a fuel range.  If the player does not return before that range expires his planes ditch and it takes twice as long to get them back. 

4) AA, with all these changes above you would need to back off the AA a bit. You could also make it that if its a Tier 8 CV in a game with mostly or all tens the planes hp gets an automatic 25% buff. 

 

If you agree to limit the game to ships built between 1890 and 1925, I agree with your contention that this is a surface warship game only.

No ships beyond tier 6 or 7.

Is that the game you want?

Because going past that puts you in the age of aircraft...and ignoring them is just silly.

Alternatively, you could rebalance the classes as follows:

BB: Tank

DD: Support / screen / healer

CL: Short range DPM

CA: Mid range DPM

CV: Long range DPM

SS: rogue

But most players dont want to play their precious BBs and DDs as tanks and support ships.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
339
[PISD]
Members
576 posts
3,757 battles
1 hour ago, Infinite_Havoc said:

It is no coincidence that the last active currently commissioned ship to fire its weapons and sink another surface ship in the US Navy is the USS Constitution an 1800's wood frigate

Your point here is? Because many ship on ship action happened later ( for instance, USS Washington vs IJN Kirishima).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
326
Members
1,176 posts
8,904 battles
1 hour ago, Skuggsja said:

A silly argument. Where does it say anything about a "surface warship game." ? Also, if they can balance dragons and trolls or lasers and photon torpedoes on other games I'm pretty sure they can balance CVs. If you want something so one dimensional and limited there are mobile games that might fit the bill.

According to Wargaming's description:

"Immerse yourself in the world of epic naval warfare and command legendary warships from the early 20th century in a free-to-play massively multiplayer online game.

According to wikipedia:

"World of Warships is a free-to-play naval warfare-themed massively multiplayer online game produced and published by Wargaming following the earlier games World of Tanks andWorld of Warplanes."

According to steam:

"Experience epic, free-to-play naval combat when you helm one of over 200 historic vessels in an exciting balance of strategy and real-time combat in World of Warships. Outfit your fleet with flags, camouflage, modifications, talented commanders, and more!"

 

They've been trying for years to balance the game with CV with nothing to show for it, mean while the game works just fine without CV. Maybe you and WG should take the hint. Remove CV hulls but keep the aircraft and what you do have? The exact same game play but no warship. This game isn't world of warships, it's world of warships with a world of warplanes class bolted on.

Here's my solution to the CV balance problem. Delete CV and migrate CV main's accounts to world of warplanes.

  • Funny 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,452
[S0L0]
Alpha Tester, In AlfaTesters
3,460 posts
4,915 battles

Oh for gods sake....This shite again?  If you're still having problems with CVs after 8.5.....   There is no cure 

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,130
[WOLFB]
Members
3,023 posts
12,645 battles

CV can be balanced if WG adds Manual AA.

 

Give CV high Alpha strike and give surface ship Manual and deadly flaks AA. But people only wants strong automated AA so they won't have to use their brain to actually counterplay CV. 

  • Cool 1
  • Boring 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
326
Members
1,176 posts
8,904 battles
3 minutes ago, RA6E_ said:

Oh for gods sake....This shite again?  If you're still having problems with CVs after 8.5.....   There is no cure 

When people say can't be balanced they mean both ways as in you can't make both sides happy. 8.5 made things better for ships but horrible for CV. Making things better for CV will make them worse for ships.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
170
[RAIN]
Members
123 posts
3,626 battles

this is how i see this thread like all the other CV haters

WOW forums meme.png

Edited by Skyspartan
  • Cool 2
  • Boring 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
159
[SHPFC]
Members
224 posts
7,359 battles
43 minutes ago, Rouxi said:

Maybe you and WG should take the hint. Remove CV hulls

Can't do it. To many Premium CV's sold. No way to refund the cash for purchase of ships.

 

 

Frosty.

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,478
[DEV_X]
Supertester
2,204 posts
20,702 battles
45 minutes ago, Rouxi said:

They've been trying for years to balance the game with CV with nothing to show for it, mean while the game works just fine without CV. Maybe you and WG should take the hint. Remove CV hulls but keep the aircraft and what you do have? The exact same game play but no warship. This game isn't world of warships, it's world of warships with a world of warplanes class bolted on.

Here's my solution to the CV balance problem. Delete CV and migrate CV main's accounts to world of warplanes.

You do realize that's never going to happen for about a million reasons right? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
2,477 posts
86 battles

OP if you're still whining about CVs after 0.8.5 where the CV population is as dead as pre-rework CV population, you're the one who's at fault.

  • Cool 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36
[DENY]
Members
8 posts
503 battles

To all the posters that stat that CVs are at pre rework level what planet are you living on? I have had Cvs in about 90% of my matches since 8.5 and today have several with DOUBLE CVs. Those who say removing them is a "silly" argument to be it's more silly to think you can balance a weapon system that changed Naval Warfare forever.  How did the Yamato go down? How did Bizmark get hurt where she could be caught and killed? surface to surface action became the exception not the rule by the end of WWII.  You cant balance them period. Either you make them too strong and the other THREE classes suffer or you have to buff the AA so much that they are garbage to play. And why does someone making a post always draw out the trolls? Get a life. If you have something useful to say fine otherwise move on. 

  • Cool 3
  • Boring 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
518
[-BRS-]
Members
1,868 posts
9,713 battles
41 minutes ago, Infinite_Havoc said:

If you have something useful to say fine otherwise move on. 

Theres nothing left to say that hasn't been said before... The vast majority of people hate repeating themselves.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
87
[A_C_F]
Members
59 posts
1,771 battles
6 hours ago, Infinite_Havoc said:

If you insist on keeping CVs which I am sure you do then here are some thoughts on attempting to Balance them against surface ships. 

1) spotting: Like radar now has a 6-second delay you could do the same with ships spotted by aircraft. I know this is an arcade game but it is one based on real ships and real tactics etc and in real life if a plane of any type spotted a ship or ships it would take a hell of a long time to get that info to the MFIC's. In-game it should be the same. I would say 12 to 15 seconds where all the team saw was a dotted outline of a ship not giving its class, or any other info for 15 seconds or so would go a long way to balancing the spotting problem. And it would bring back DD players.

2) Frequency of attacks: Right now a Cv can strike you and be back in less than a minute to do it again.  So when a CV is either done with his or her attack or has hit the return to carrier key make the player fly those last planes back to the carrier before launching new ones. 

3) endless range. Right now a Cv player can fly the entire map if they want to in a pretty short period of time.  Providing tons of info for their team. Make planes have a fuel range.  If the player does not return before that range expires his planes ditch and it takes twice as long to get them back. 

4) AA, with all these changes above you would need to back off the AA a bit. You could also make it that if its a Tier 8 CV in a game with mostly or all tens the planes hp gets an automatic 25% buff. 

 

1) - Spotting, T8+ is not something you can do perm. you loose to many planes and for many ships (other than BBs) you can only maintain a spot for so long. --The AA changes made CV's focuse DD's even more becasue they are the only ones who's AA doesn't melt entire squadrens like raiders of the lost ark. (and a few still do). 

2) Are you freaking kidding me? Even BB's can shoot every 30 seconds. I have to fly accross the map, I get one attack per squad before they are WTFBBQ melted by AA then I spend another minute or two dodging AA and flying back to make a second attack.  Not only that, but if I keep doing that attack after attack I run out of planes.  Name me another boat that only gets to shoot every 90 seconds and eventually runs out of ammo.  I piss on your premise. This shows you really don't have muc CV play experience.

3) Sure, give ships fuel too. The rework from rts means we can only have 1 squad out at a time. You want limited fuel then go back to having more than one squad out at a time.

4) The only good Idea you have, congrats.

  • Cool 1
  • Boring 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18
[MUSK]
Members
45 posts
392 battles
31 minutes ago, therealcomm said:

1) - Spotting, T8+ is not something you can do perm. you loose to many planes and for many ships (other than BBs) you can only maintain a spot for so long. --The AA changes made CV's focuse DD's even more becasue they are the only ones who's AA doesn't melt entire squadrens like raiders of the lost ark. (and a few still do). 

2) Are you freaking kidding me? Even BB's can shoot every 30 seconds. I have to fly accross the map, I get one attack per squad before they are WTFBBQ melted by AA then I spend another minute or two dodging AA and flying back to make a second attack.  Not only that, but if I keep doing that attack after attack I run out of planes.  Name me another boat that only gets to shoot every 90 seconds and eventually runs out of ammo.  I piss on your premise. This shows you really don't have muc CV play experience.

3) Sure, give ships fuel too. The rework from rts means we can only have 1 squad out at a time. You want limited fuel then go back to having more than one squad out at a time.

4) The only good Idea you have, congrats.

The only reason I (as someone who wants to get back into CV's) wants to do a variant of 1) is that it allows CV's to have better spotting range.

Right now, spotting for CV's is nerfed into the ground because it gives a "live feed" of the enemy to your team. If instead teammates only received updates on what you saw every, say, 10 seconds, then CV's can have decent spotting range without destroying concealment mechanics by actually "perma spotting" everything.

This extra spotting range would be wonderful for things like seeing Worchesters before they shred your squad, or being able to not lose track of a DD as you turn around to strike them again (if striking twice is even possible nowadays).

  • Boring 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,112
[PEED2]
Beta Testers
4,811 posts
13,851 battles
6 hours ago, KAAOS_Frosty said:

Agree said that they say they can't. Would promote to long a wait time to get a match.

is better wait 10min to a match what you can do something the a match of 20min when you can only "spot".

  • Boring 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
159
[SHPFC]
Members
224 posts
7,359 battles
4 hours ago, HyenaHiena said:

is better wait 10min to a match what you can do something the a match of 20min when you can only "spot".

I agree I would have waited to get a good match in my CV's. I have quit playing them. But if I was still playing them I would wait to get a good match vs. being a Spotter. 

 

 

Frosty

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×