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MajorRenegade

Siegfried First Impression [NoZoupForYou]

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7 minutes ago, MajorRenegade said:

 

Can't say he is wrong. He is the first CC to give a honest opinion (haven't seen any CC in Twitch lately) and he pictured her pretty well: Good for German standards but mediocre guns for everything else with a hull that eat full pens from every single ship for days. 

Honestly think that the guns with a bit lower reload (to around 24/23 base) would do just fine, if we lower the fuse time then we have another Hood that is almost useless against actual armor. The problem is her armor layout: She is too lacking on the armor side of things, her bow and stern being 27mm will get overmatched by almost every BB it faces but much more often than Alaska because Siegfried is much much wider than any other CC (large cruiser, not Comunity Contributor). Her 90mm side is far too weak to stop any powerful shoot even angled (to be even close to effective the angle required would be pointing the bow at the enemy and that is going to hurt even more) while being thick enough to arm every single AP in the game, even Yamato's AP won't ever overpen this ship. The turtleback is not impressive at all, it's barely more thick that Hindi's while having so sharp angles that it resemble much more the French turtleback but without the sheer armor to be useful. 

Many many people want this ship to be successful, to see a actual powerful (yet not OP) big German sausage at high tiers but right now it's just PEF big sister or Azuma's German Cousin.

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I was really hoping she would have better secondaries and/or torpedoes. Considering how into the Battle Cruiser and Pocket Battleship the Germans were, I expected this ship to start of stronger. Hopefully she can get some buffs.

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I am not quite sure where all the problems come from, I am having a blast in her.

Her guns, while small in barrel count, are more accurate than those found on any of her counterparts. On top of that they enjoy the ability to overmatch 25mm, again something unheard of for any supercruiser currently in game. Her reload is not amazing, but it doesn‘t have to be tbh. On top of that she is the only T9 supercruiser which carries torpedoes, and arguably the strongest AAA as well. 

Complaints about her armor also seem rather rushed. None of the T9 supercruisers can claim to have as much usable armor as Siegfried does. Let‘s compare: Azuma has a high citadel, and is overmatch city. Kronshtadt has a waterline citadel, but is also overmatch city. Alaska has a waterline citadel and a stronger midship deck, but still gets overmatched at all sorts of spots. And then you have Siegfried, which again sports a waterline citadel but also has improved midship armor. Her upper belt can bounce every shell that people might throw at you and her midship deck will bounce anything below 430mm. 

Stealth wise and maneuverability wise she is not great, not terrible.

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5 hours ago, SireneRacker said:

I am not quite sure where all the problems come from, I am having a blast in her.

Her guns, while small in barrel count, are more accurate than those found on any of her counterparts. On top of that they enjoy the ability to overmatch 25mm, again something unheard of for any supercruiser currently in game. Her reload is not amazing, but it doesn‘t have to be tbh. On top of that she is the only T9 supercruiser which carries torpedoes, and arguably the strongest AAA as well. 

Complaints about her armor also seem rather rushed. None of the T9 supercruisers can claim to have as much usable armor as Siegfried does. Let‘s compare: Azuma has a high citadel, and is overmatch city. Kronshtadt has a waterline citadel, but is also overmatch city. Alaska has a waterline citadel and a stronger midship deck, but still gets overmatched at all sorts of spots. And then you have Siegfried, which again sports a waterline citadel but also has improved midship armor. Her upper belt can bounce every shell that people might throw at you and her midship deck will bounce anything below 430mm. 

Stealth wise and maneuverability wise she is not great, not terrible.

People forget about those details :Smile_trollface:

 

People that want Battleship Armor on these "Super Cruisers" are going to be disappointed.  I hate to say it folks, but if you want Battleship Armor...

 

You play Battleships.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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5 hours ago, Skuggsja said:

I was really hoping she would have better secondaries and/or torpedoes. Considering how into the Battle Cruiser and Pocket Battleship the Germans were, I expected this ship to start of stronger. Hopefully she can get some buffs.

I am now convinced - more than ever - that Siegfried needs armor on par with Hindenburg to work; and probably a better-armored bow.

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6 hours ago, Skuggsja said:

I was really hoping she would have better secondaries and/or torpedoes. Considering how into the Battle Cruiser and Pocket Battleship the Germans were, I expected this ship to start of stronger. Hopefully she can get some buffs.

Pocket Battleships Never Existed

~Hunter

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I've run into one once in Sovetsky Soyuz, he managed to bait a shot onto his midships section for an impressive autobounce result (4 ricochets) and did manage to land a torp but not much more. Overall I was impressed, and went out of my way not to show sides.

 

 

Overall testing her now with the mooted cruiser plating changes seems a tremendous waste of time, if those changes go through she will be the most impacted superduper cruiser by far.

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2 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

People that want Battleship Armor on these "Super Cruisers" are going to be disappointed.  I hate to say it folks, but if you want Battleship Armor...

Who's asking for battleship armor? 

Somehow "give it Hipper's bow belt" or "it needs to be at least as tough as Hindenberg" gets a reaction that amounts to "OMG LOL YOU ALL WANT BATTLESHIP ARMOR GO PLAY BBS LOL".

Maybe, for once, try addressing what people actually say instead of a grossly exaggerated caricature of it. 

Edited by KilljoyCutter
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4 hours ago, KilljoyCutter said:

it needs to be at least as tough as Hindenberg

Unlike Hindenburg Siegfried can autobounce shells above the 430mm threshold with her upper belt. What little benefit the bow plating gives (it‘s not much), the HE and AP resistance given by the upper belt more than offsets it. 

Or are we just talking about giving flat side at short ranges and hoping to get away with it?

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9 hours ago, SireneRacker said:

Unlike Hindenburg Siegfried can autobounce shells above the 430mm threshold with her upper belt. What little benefit the bow plating gives (it‘s not much), the HE and AP resistance given by the upper belt more than offsets it. 

Or are we just talking about giving flat side at short ranges and hoping to get away with it?

Wow, talk about picking something out of context... I literally had "" around that line as something someone else had said. 

 

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18 minutes ago, KilljoyCutter said:

Wow, talk about picking something out of context... I literally had "" around that line as something someone else had said.

Wow, talk about trying to dodge the point. Which is that the statements you cited are flat out wrong/absurd.

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7 minutes ago, SireneRacker said:

Wow, talk about trying to dodge the point. Which is that the statements you cited are flat out wrong/absurd.

If you're going to misquote me, I don't give an F about your "points".

 

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10 minutes ago, KilljoyCutter said:

If you're going to misquote me, I don't give an F about your "points".

If you are afraid to face the truth that your demands are plain ridiculos, then I won't return any~

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4 minutes ago, SireneRacker said:

If you are afraid to face the truth that your demands are plain ridiculos, then I won't return any~

Let's be honest here - both of you - with the nerf, the entire argument is rendered moot. She's essentially Azuma 2.0 now - the floating diabetic turd.

Edited by Battleship_Elisabeth

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10 minutes ago, SireneRacker said:

If you are afraid to face the truth that your demands are plain ridiculos, then I won't return any~

It's not about facing anything or not -- you put words in a box and put my name on those words, without the full context that I already had those words in quotation marks and that they were in direct response to SOMEONE ELSE already trying to grossly misrepresent what other people had said, as is his habit.

If you can't grasp the difference between something I said, and something I quoted from another person saying it, that's your problem.  If you're going to deliberately misrepresent what people say, no one should feel any obligation to respond to the attack you're trying to make using that misrepresentation. 

 

Edited by KilljoyCutter

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I think the Siegfried suffers the same problem as a lot of CBs do.  If I want a flexible ship with good DPM and utility, I'd play a proper cruiser.  If I want to play an alpha focused ship with overmatch and dev strike potential, I'd play a proper BB.  The Siegfried sits in the middle and gets the worst of both world.

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10 minutes ago, KilljoyCutter said:

It's not about facing anything or not -- you put words in a box and put my name on those words, without the full context that I already had those words in quotation marks and that they were in direct response to SOMEONE ELSE already trying to grossly misrepresent what other people had said, as is his habit.

If you can't grasp the difference between something I said, and something I quoted from another person saying it, that's your problem.  If you're going to deliberately misrepresent what people say, no one should feel any obligation to respond to the attack you're trying to make using that misrepresentation. 

Again you are missing the point, or are just blatantly ignorant towards it for the sake of it. But given your habit to do so whenever possible, I am sure it's the latter. So please, victimize yourself further.

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15 minutes ago, Battleship_Elisabeth said:

Let's be honest here - both of you - with the nerf, the entire argument is rendered moot. She's essentially Azuma 2.0 now - the floating diabetic turd.

The nerf, while being rather questionable, is not really touching the key qualities of Siegfried. I am fairly sure it won't even be enough to push her off the throne of the most durable T9 supercruiser. And thank god they did not touch her accuracy, which was something I feared when I heard that they nerfed something.

What they did was make her even more situational and picky regarding player skill. Not really the step I would've taken when the ship was perfectly fine to begin with.

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19 minutes ago, yashma said:

I think the Siegfried suffers the same problem as a lot of CBs do.  If I want a flexible ship with good DPM and utility, I'd play a proper cruiser.  If I want to play an alpha focused ship with overmatch and dev strike potential, I'd play a proper BB.  The Siegfried sits in the middle and gets the worst of both world.

^ This is exactly what I have been saying for a while. The uber cruisers live in a strange in-between which frequently leaves them with the worst of both worlds. All of them have this issue, it's just that Siegfried exacerbates it with a very small number of very big caliber guns. What @NoZoupForYou noted is exactly what I suspected - she is very RNG dependent. @Notser did another video and really loved it, but he also pointed out that the ship really suits his style. 

I think the ship will sell well but a lot of people will have trouble with it. That combo of guns will be very difficult to be successful with. 15" guns are just big enough to fire slowly but not big enough to reliably overmatch angled CAs in its tier range, much less BBs. The ship also puts a lot of eggs in a very small basket. Even with a low sigma and low dispersion only 6 big guns really hurts. If even one shell misses a lot of your firepower just went away and you have a long wait to try again. I don't think there is anything wrong with the ship, but people will need to understand that RNGezus can and will slap this ship around hard early and often with only 6 slow-firing guns. 

The ship also seems to have very good armor for a cruise but it isn't enough to really matter.  What really will happen is cruisers just treat it like a BB and fire on the soft parts ignoring the heavy armor, and vs. BBs, there is just enough to make sure BB rounds always stick in the ship so it will take a lot of damage.

All this makes it seem like I am down on the ship. I'm not. I'm really looking forward to it. I just agree that people need to be very aware that these super cruisers usually aren't that super. They are frequently very limited in what they can do as compared to normal cruisers which are more versatile. 

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5 minutes ago, Tzarevitch said:

^ This is exactly what I have been saying for a while. The uber cruisers live in a strange in-between which frequently leaves them with the worst of both worlds. All of them have this issue, it's just that Siegfried exacerbates it with a very small number of very big caliber guns. What @NoZoupForYou noted is exactly what I suspected - she is very RNG dependent. @Notser did another video and really loved it, but he also pointed out that the ship really suits his style. 

I think the ship will sell well but a lot of people will have trouble with it. That combo of guns will be very difficult to be successful with. 15" guns are just big enough to fire slowly but not big enough to reliably overmatch angled CAs in its tier range, much less BBs. The ship also puts a lot of eggs in a very small basket. Even with a low sigma and low dispersion only 6 big guns really hurts. If even one shell misses a lot of your firepower just went away and you have a long wait to try again. I don't think there is anything wrong with the ship, but people will need to understand that RNGezus can and will slap this ship around hard early and often with only 6 slow-firing guns. 

The ship also seems to have very good armor for a cruise but it isn't enough to really matter.  What really will happen is cruisers just treat it like a BB and fire on the soft parts ignoring the heavy armor, and vs. BBs, there is just enough to make sure BB rounds always stick in the ship so it will take a lot of damage.

All this makes it seem like I am down on the ship. I'm not. I'm really looking forward to it. I just agree that people need to be very aware that these super cruisers usually aren't that super. They are frequently very limited in what they can do as compared to normal cruisers which are more versatile. 

Well said. 

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