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deresistance

Friesland please keep her unique WG

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Friesland looks fantastic.   A string DD with guns only no torps?   Strong AA?    This is a very unique ship that can be strong in the right hands.   And can easily be dominated when in the wrong position.   It brings a unique ship experience to the game.  We need more like this.   Please WG don't give her torps and keep her rather strong traits as it *adjusted after testing*

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Still salty over the Duke of York we ended up getting, so I get the place you're coming from. I hope so, too. She truly will be a mini Worcester more or less as she is.

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2 minutes ago, Shoggoth_pinup said:

Still salty over the Duke of York we ended up getting, so I get the place you're coming from. I hope so, too. She truly will be a mini Worcester more or less as she is.

The original DoY proposal was one of the dumbest ever. Many people still seem unable to grasp that 'unique' and 'good' are not coterminus. 

The Friesland looks like a hard pass for me. Without torps it will feel naked to me. Nor does the game need another HE spammer in the high tiers. Not that that will stop WG....

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2 minutes ago, Shoggoth_pinup said:

Still salty over the Duke of York we ended up getting, so I get the place you're coming from. I hope so, too. She truly will be a mini Worcester more or less as she is.

Man I agree DOY before previous change was very cool ship.      As for Friesland, don't think I would consider her a Wooster.   I don't think players will camp with her.  She is made to be aggressive.    As flamu would say "duca duca" can be fun...   but I really dont like the IJN X DDs.   You cant push, they handle kinda crappy.    Aki and the tier 9 (forgot name) aer not bad and probably fit this play style more.    But a unique experience and ship is great.    Especially the AA.    Nothing feels as bad as having a CV hunt you all game.   I honestly had to stop playing CVs as I could see helpless DDs who have smoke on cool down, only be killed by me with no way to counter.  It made them feel bad, made me feel bad.    It wasn't fun.  I think this would be a good introduction to help push back on that constant spotting, rockets, death. 

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27 minutes ago, deresistance said:

Man I agree DOY before previous change was very cool ship.      As for Friesland, don't think I would consider her a Wooster.   I don't think players will camp with her.  She is made to be aggressive.    As flamu would say "duca duca" can be fun...   but I really dont like the IJN X DDs.   You cant push, they handle kinda crappy.    Aki and the tier 9 (forgot name) aer not bad and probably fit this play style more.    But a unique experience and ship is great.    Especially the AA.    Nothing feels as bad as having a CV hunt you all game.   I honestly had to stop playing CVs as I could see helpless DDs who have smoke on cool down, only be killed by me with no way to counter.  It made them feel bad, made me feel bad.    It wasn't fun.  I think this would be a good introduction to help push back on that constant spotting, rockets, death. 

Personally, I feel it'd be easy to improve that situation by reducing DD air detectibility and increasing plane regen. This allows the AA ships to feel like they are doing something, even if they already were in the previous system, while still allowing CVs to be effective. Since the recent AA changes, playing CV feels like you have to attack nothing but DDs or lose everything you throw out, which really isn't good for DDs or CVs. Before that, poorly played DDs were the easy pinata, but most other ships were still reasonably available to attack.

Ohh, and fixing slingshotting, as that's a stupid mechanic to keep.

As for Fries, I more meant the statistics. Hilariously rapid guns, no torps, etc. That said, she'll likely see use from behind islands as well when the chance presents itself, but the inclusion of smoke gives her far more options than Worcester could hope for.

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44 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

The original DoY proposal was one of the dumbest ever. Many people still seem unable to grasp that 'unique' and 'good' are not coterminus. 

The Friesland looks like a hard pass for me. Without torps it will feel naked to me. Nor does the game need another HE spammer in the high tiers. Not that that will stop WG....

A premium doesn't need to be good. A premium is just another ship, and a unique playstyle is how one makes it worthwhile by one's umpteenth T7 premium BB. As it stands, she's a boring ship that feels largely redundant. Slower reload for better AP pen angles and hydro is about as bland of a change to a KGV as one can get. Were she not free, she'd have been a hard pass as she became, as she doesn't bring anything new or interesting to the table. Hood did the angles already and did it with a more interesting gimic than hydro of all things. Bismarck pre-hydro buff shows well how useless hydro tends to be for a BB. If you truly needed the hydro for surprise torps, you're likely not gonna dodge. If you didn't need the hydro and were prepared and oriented properly already, you would have probably only taken 1 torp anyways. About the only thing of note she brings to the table over hood is slightly more gun, and even then not that much more gun. You have Lyon with 16, which makes her about as dull as can be.

Was the old Dork good? Not necessarily, no. But is the one we got good, either? I'd say no. If given the choice between the two, I'd choose the one with the unique playstyle. Would I use her? Hard to say. But the old version is a ship I would have bought, as she's something worth having. Something interesting. Weird ships are fun. Okhotnik, Haida, Lyon, Smith, Asashio and so many more are all similarly unique, and each similarly interesting for it.

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15 hours ago, Taichunger said:

The original DoY proposal was one of the dumbest ever. Many people still seem unable to grasp that 'unique' and 'good' are not coterminus. 

This.   1,000 time this.   

LWM put me on her ignore list because I explained in detail why the original idea was stupid.

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14 hours ago, Shoggoth_pinup said:

A premium doesn't need to be good. A premium is just another ship, and a unique playstyle is how one makes it worthwhile by one's umpteenth T7 premium BB. As it stands, she's a boring ship that feels largely redundant. Slower reload for better AP pen angles and hydro is about as bland of a change to a KGV as one can get. Were she not free, she'd have been a hard pass as she became, as she doesn't bring anything new or interesting to the table. Hood did the angles already and did it with a more interesting gimic than hydro of all things. Bismarck pre-hydro buff shows well how useless hydro tends to be for a BB. If you truly needed the hydro for surprise torps, you're likely not gonna dodge. If you didn't need the hydro and were prepared and oriented properly already, you would have probably only taken 1 torp anyways. About the only thing of note she brings to the table over hood is slightly more gun, and even then not that much more gun. You have Lyon with 16, which makes her about as dull as can be.

Was the old Dork good? Not necessarily, no. But is the one we got good, either? I'd say no. If given the choice between the two, I'd choose the one with the unique playstyle. Would I use her? Hard to say. But the old version is a ship I would have bought, as she's something worth having. Something interesting. Weird ships are fun. Okhotnik, Haida, Lyon, Smith, Asashio and so many more are all similarly unique, and each similarly interesting for it.

All the ships listed that are unique I agree with fully.   Gonna add a few

  • Black - Shes damn good, radar is cool but it scares people away more as it is not good enough to get kills in because its so short.   For me its the slowest torps in the game.  They are amazing!
  • Hunghe - People hated this ship but I always have a blast in her.   Creeping long smoke, and awesome fire start chance
  • Any secondary ships - Mass, Georgia, Republique for me - Secondaries are always fun to me
  • Scharnhorst - Id say the most disputed ship due to gun caliber.. but those guns with that side plating makes her a blast
  • Graf Spee - Guns are ok when they hit they can be good,   but the combination of ability, with those awesome torp angles, make her very fun
  • French DDs - Upcoming yes, no smoke, fast speed, good guns sounds like a blast.  

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No torps, but crazy gun dpm and a ton of support tools? Sign me up!

She's from a non existent (as of yet) nation and cannot be used as a trainer? Uhm ... pass.

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1 hour ago, TheDreadnought said:

This.   1,000 time this.   

LWM put me on her ignore list because I explained in detail why the original idea was stupid.

Do you have a link to that? I feel that I am missing some good reading.

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6 minutes ago, KaptainKaybe said:

She's from a non existent (as of yet) nation and cannot be used as a trainer? Uhm ... pass.

I made Blys into a trainer by getting a 19 point captain on it.

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20 hours ago, Shoggoth_pinup said:

 Hood did the angles already and did it with a more interesting gimic than hydro of all things.

Actually Hood's improved auto bounce angles came after the DoY had them. Edit- Found out I was mistaken.

Personally, I found DoY to be a decent enough premium when I got her. At the time, I did not yet have KGV, so I used DoY to help learn how to use the KGV. Admittedly, now that I have KGV, DoY does not see anywhere near as much action as KGV does, but at the time, it had a place. We could always hope that they eventually look back at that pair and do something like they did for Hipper and Eugen to differentiate them. I've always been in favor of giving DoY proper BB fuse timers and ditching the RN HE, to give us a ship whose gimmick is not having the line's gimmick (plus hydro) like Warspite. As to the effectiveness of hydro on a BB, depends on meta and environment. I live mostly in co-op and hydro is absolutely very useful there, more useful than even RADAR. RADAR is nearly pointless in a co-op battle, except for those times when your own teams DDs get too generous with their smoke and blind your whole team (seeing more often, nearly every match now). 

Edited by CaptHarlock_222

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23 minutes ago, CaptHarlock_222 said:

Actually Hood's improved auto bounce angles came after the DoY had them.

Personally, I found DoY to be a decent enough premium when I got her. At the time, I did not yet have KGV, so I used DoY to help learn how to use the KGV. Admittedly, now that I have KGV, DoY does not see anywhere near as much action as KGV does, but at the time, it had a place. We could always hope that they eventually look back at that pair and do something like they did for Hipper and Eugen to differentiate them. I've always been in favor of giving DoY proper BB fuse timers and ditching the RN HE, to give us a ship whose gimmick is not having the line's gimmick (plus hydro) like Warspite. As to the effectiveness of hydro on a BB, depends on meta and environment. I live mostly in co-op and hydro is absolutely very useful there, more useful than even RADAR. RADAR is nearly pointless in a co-op battle, except for those times when your own teams DDs get too generous with their smoke and blind your whole team (seeing more often, nearly every match now). 

Just a note: Hood was released about a half year before Duke of York and hence was the first battleship with said gimmick. And yes, it was added as a feature to her before release to compensate for the fact that she had short fuse but not the powerful HE that Nelson has. Thankfully, they did not remove that feature when they changed her fuse recently.

I wouldn't ever ever get rid of the powerful HE on Duke of York as otherwise, if she were dependent on using AP all the time, she'd get absolutely crushed by ANY battleship going bow on with 15+ inch guns since they can punch through T6-7 BB bow plating, whereas DoY/KGV cannot. So having that potent HE goes a long way to make both those ships viable. Lyon gets away with having regular HE on lower calibre guns at Tier 7 because she has *16* of them and one of the very nastiest battleship broadsides in the whole game.

Edited by KaptainKaybe

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1 hour ago, CaptHarlock_222 said:

As to the effectiveness of hydro on a BB, depends on meta and environment. I live mostly in co-op and hydro is absolutely very useful there, more useful than even RADAR. RADAR is nearly pointless in a co-op battle, except for those times when your own teams DDs get too generous with their smoke and blind your whole team (seeing more often, nearly every match now). 

Yyyyep. Hate when smoke blinds in co-op, and have similar sentiments about radar. I'll give you that hydro is useful in co-op, however, but I'd still say that it's a case of avoiding a single torp rather than a whole swath, as it's easy to know when torps are coming when the DDs are spamming guns constantly..

That said, in co-op I usually would rather have a spotter than radar, and this makes Mo slightly frustrating due to that lack of choice. This and how fast Georgia is made her into my go-to co-op BB, as she's just an overall good ship. Heck, I take hydro over radar in Salem, as the radar is just so short that hydro isn't far behind in doing its job.

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3 hours ago, TheDreadnought said:

 

LWM put me on her ignore list because I explained in detail why the original idea was stupid.

hold up you can view people's ignore list?

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2 minutes ago, Wows_Nightly_News said:

hold up you can view people's ignore list?

Diapering, until proven innocent.

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2 hours ago, deresistance said:

All the ships listed that are unique I agree with fully.   Gonna add a few

  • Black - Shes damn good, radar is cool but it scares people away more as it is not good enough to get kills in because its so short.   For me its the slowest torps in the game.  They are amazing!
  • Hunghe - People hated this ship but I always have a blast in her.   Creeping long smoke, and awesome fire start chance
  • Any secondary ships - Mass, Georgia, Republique for me - Secondaries are always fun to me
  • Scharnhorst - Id say the most disputed ship due to gun caliber.. but those guns with that side plating makes her a blast
  • Graf Spee - Guns are ok when they hit they can be good,   but the combination of ability, with those awesome torp angles, make her very fun
  • French DDs - Upcoming yes, no smoke, fast speed, good guns sounds like a blast.  

Great list! Spee used to be a favorite of mine way back. Never could make Scharn work, sadly.

As for Huanghe, if memory serves it's more due to being an arguably worse Perth. I don't have her, but I do remember looking into her while trying to figure out what to replace Cleveland with when AA still mattered in operations.

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2 hours ago, deresistance said:

All the ships listed that are unique I agree with fully.   Gonna add a few

  • Black - Shes damn good, radar is cool but it scares people away more as it is not good enough to get kills in because its so short.   For me its the slowest torps in the game.  They are amazing!
  • Hunghe - People hated this ship but I always have a blast in her.   Creeping long smoke, and awesome fire start chance
  • Any secondary ships - Mass, Georgia, Republique for me - Secondaries are always fun to me
  • Scharnhorst - Id say the most disputed ship due to gun caliber.. but those guns with that side plating makes her a blast
  • Graf Spee - Guns are ok when they hit they can be good,   but the combination of ability, with those awesome torp angles, make her very fun
  • French DDs - Upcoming yes, no smoke, fast speed, good guns sounds like a blast.  

PEF. Her guns are so crazy - sometimes inaccurate; sometimes awesome. But they're absurdly punchy when they hit. I've done like 20k+ non-citadel salvos with them. It's a good, strong, weird boat.

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35 minutes ago, Shoggoth_pinup said:

Great list! Spee used to be a favorite of mine way back. Never could make Scharn work, sadly.

As for Huanghe, if memory serves it's more due to being an arguably worse Perth. I don't have her, but I do remember looking into her while trying to figure out what to replace Cleveland with when AA still mattered in operations.

So I have very awesome stats in Perth I removed her from the list because of HungHe.    Perth was around when the smoke bloom happened.  And she was hit VERY hard by it.   After that she was spotted to often for me to like it.  HungHe seems to take that place for me.  HungHe torps do go farther but slower, but her HE shells start fires like crazy.   i recommend

Edited by deresistance

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3 hours ago, KaptainKaybe said:

Just a note: Hood was released about a half year before Duke of York and hence was the first battleship with said gimmick. And yes, it was added as a feature to her before release to compensate for the fact that she had short fuse but not the powerful HE that Nelson has. Thankfully, they did not remove that feature when they changed her fuse recently.

I wouldn't ever ever get rid of the powerful HE on Duke of York as otherwise, if she were dependent on using AP all the time, she'd get absolutely crushed by ANY battleship going bow on with 15+ inch guns since they can punch through T6-7 BB bow plating, whereas DoY/KGV cannot. So having that potent HE goes a long way to make both those ships viable. Lyon gets away with having regular HE on lower calibre guns at Tier 7 because she has *16* of them and one of the very nastiest battleship broadsides in the whole game.

Hmm. I could have sworn it was added to her as a buff after release, but looking it up, it seems you're right. Guess my memory is slipping, either that or I've got too many boats to remember things about. 

As to the DoY HE thing, I just figured that if she got proper fused AP with those auto bounce angles and the upcoming heal charge buff she's likely getting, having the RN HE on top of that might be a bit too much. Even regular BB HE is still plenty effective on angled targets (not that very many people seem to bother with changing ammo types), and it's perfectly viable to get decent penetration damage on angled BBs with AP, if you know where to aim. That said, I'm basing this on what I know I can do, I suspect I have a better understanding of game mechanics than a fair few players. Been watching, reading, and learning stuff about how to play this game since before I even had an account or a computer capable of handling it (but I had my current computer on order at the time, was getting it primarily to handle modded Skyrim and other games from around the 2010-2014 period that my old computer just couldn't cope with).

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3 hours ago, Shoggoth_pinup said:

Yyyyep. Hate when smoke blinds in co-op, and have similar sentiments about radar. I'll give you that hydro is useful in co-op, however, but I'd still say that it's a case of avoiding a single torp rather than a whole swath, as it's easy to know when torps are coming when the DDs are spamming guns constantly..

That said, in co-op I usually would rather have a spotter than radar, and this makes Mo slightly frustrating due to that lack of choice. This and how fast Georgia is made her into my go-to co-op BB, as she's just an overall good ship. Heck, I take hydro over radar in Salem, as the radar is just so short that hydro isn't far behind in doing its job.

True enough about dodging the single torp vs. spread. I just prefer to pop hydro to make sure I can see all of the torps in the spread, and hopefully alert others that might be behind me. I may sometimes play and sound like I mostly take care of myself, but I still try to help the team whenever I can in whatever ways I can. It's proven a useful method in this game where sometimes you get a team, other times a herd of cats.

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3 hours ago, Shoggoth_pinup said:

Great list! Spee used to be a favorite of mine way back.

I picked one up recently.  It took a little while to get the feel of how to play, but its turned out to be more fun than I thought.

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I think she's going to be pretty safe.  There's still probably going to be some tweaks to follow before her release, but she'll be fine for her strengths.  Her alibi for what she will become rests on the fact that she has no torpedoes, which is kind of a big deal for a DD in this game.  I'm just trying to imagine some crazy situation where a BB or Cruiser comes around a corner and Friesland has no torpedoes to put the threat down.  Because if that larger ship isn't already low on HP, those puny little guns she has aren't going to do anything by themselves.  A DD having no high spike damage capability would be in big trouble.  36kts, no Engine Boost, 6.4km detection, no torpedoes for desperation... There can be some terrifying scenarios. 

 

The threat of torpedoes keeps larger ships in check, weighing whether they will push you or not.  US Cruisers face this problem already.  US Cruiser like Cleveland hiding behind an island?  If you're in a BB and the situation looks right, you can push into the non-torpedo capable target with confidence.  If that ship you're trying to push into did have torpedoes, even Atlanta's garbage 4.5km range torps, it makes you reconsider.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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17 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

If that ship you're trying to push into did have torpedoes, even Atlanta's garbage 4.5km range torps, it makes you reconsider.

Especially if you're low on health with your DCP on cooldown/exhausted and no more heals left. If it's not the last ship on the enemy team or instant death on mercy rule, charging him could earn him a Flesh Wound award and his team the win.

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After playing against one a couple nights ago I hope the nerf the range. There is no counterplay against a DD in a large ship when that little thing is raining shells from 15km and just dodges shells. It took a 3/4 Montana down to nothing in minutes and with no team support it was a slow death. It’s basically only vulnerable to other DDs and radar ambushes. Play against one and you’ll see what I mean. It’s not an uplclose DD as much as a nimble Wooster.

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