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KaptainKaybe

Hoping British DD guns get the 1/5th pen treatment that CLs will soon get

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Quite simply as above.

With the upcoming changes to HE pen and IFHE, the British 120s and 113s are getting sh** on pretty solidly.

With IFHE changing to a 20% boost, that means that even with IFHE, the 120s on any ship that uses it can't benefit from IFHE *at all* since it will only be able to pen 24mm of armor, 1mm short of the ultra important threshhold of 25mm found on mid tier battleships and high tier cruisers. This is *especially* harsh on Haida that largely depends on IFHE to keep her damage numbers up and I rarely see anyone playing Haida without it.

The 113s are also getting the shaft, but mainly for the same reason they are getting the shaft currently: IFHE is required to even use HE in the first place against angled ships, especially other DDs. The AP is strong, but worthless if the target has an IQ stronger than pollen. And again, with IFHE, it does not pass any important threshhold while soon becoming even worse on fire chance than currently.

While the HE pen and IFHE changes will be good for light cruisers overall, the change is going to take a huge dump on many DDs.

Akizuki+ got the 1/4 pen treatment specifically because the 100mm guns could not pen high tier DDs. So not sure why she got buffed, but Jutland and Daring did not. But hey, maybe players enjoy having to use IFHE on Daring for ... reasons? At least currently, IFHE really boosts the damage output on ships like Gallant and Cossack. But soon, Daring captains will become pretty much useless on all the premiums of that line.

Edited by KaptainKaybe
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13 minutes ago, KaptainKaybe said:

Quite simply as above.

With the upcoming changes to HE pen and IFHE, the British 120s and 113s are getting sh** on pretty solidly.

With IFHE changing to a 20% boost, that means that even with IFHE, the 120s on any ship that uses it can't benefit from IFHE *at all* since it will only be able to pen 24mm of armor, 1mm short of the ultra important threshhold of 25mm found on mid tier battleships and high tier cruisers. This is *especially* harsh on Haida that largely depends on IFHE to keep her damage numbers up and I rarely see anyone playing Haida without it.

The 113s are also getting the shaft, but mainly for the same reason they are getting the shaft currently: IFHE is required to even use HE in the first place against angled ships, especially other DDs. The AP is strong, but worthless if the target has an IQ stronger than pollen. And again, with IFHE, it does not pass any important threshhold while soon becoming even worse on fire chance than currently.

While the HE pen and IFHE changes will be good for light cruisers overall, the change is going to take a huge dump on many DDs.

Akizuki+ got the 1/4 pen treatment specifically because the 100mm guns could not pen high tier DDs. So not sure why she got buffed, but Jutland and Daring did not. But hey, maybe players enjoy having to use IFHE on Daring for ... reasons? At least currently, IFHE really boosts the damage output on ships like Gallant and Cossack. But soon, Daring captains will become pretty much useless on all the premiums of that line.

While your concerns about the 120mm guns are valid, this is actually a huge buff the the Daring and Jutland.

Currently, those two have 18.83333... mm of penetration, and that is rounded to 19mm. With the system as it currently is, ties go to the defender, so they can penetrate up to 19mm, but not 19mm. They have to take IFHE to beat the armor of other DDs, and at a hit to their fire chance.

However, under the new system, ties go to the attacker, so Daring and Jutland will have the penetration to defeat 19mm without IFHE.

So, basically, IFHE becomes a worse than worthless skill to them, because they no longer need it to do damage to DDs, it doesn't boost their pen above any important thresholds, and kills their fire chance. But all that really means is that Daring and Jutland captains are getting 4 points freed up for whatever they want. I'm gonna sink them into PM and DE to become a pyromaniac.

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15 minutes ago, KaptainKaybe said:

Quite simply as above.

With the upcoming changes to HE pen and IFHE, the British 120s and 113s are getting sh** on pretty solidly.

With IFHE changing to a 20% boost, that means that even with IFHE, the 120s on any ship that uses it can't benefit from IFHE *at all* since it will only be able to pen 24mm of armor, 1mm short of the ultra important threshhold of 25mm found on mid tier battleships and high tier cruisers. This is *especially* harsh on Haida that largely depends on IFHE to keep her damage numbers up and I rarely see anyone playing Haida without it.

The 113s are also getting the shaft, but mainly for the same reason they are getting the shaft currently: IFHE is required to even use HE in the first place against angled ships, especially other DDs. The AP is strong, but worthless if the target has an IQ stronger than pollen. And again, with IFHE, it does not pass any important threshhold while soon becoming even worse on fire chance than currently.

While the HE pen and IFHE changes will be good for light cruisers overall, the change is going to take a huge dump on many DDs.

Akizuki+ got the 1/4 pen treatment specifically because the 100mm guns could not pen high tier DDs. So not sure why she got buffed, but Jutland and Daring did not. But hey, maybe players enjoy having to use IFHE on Daring for ... reasons? At least currently, IFHE really boosts the damage output on ships like Gallant and Cossack. But soon, Daring captains will become pretty much useless on all the premiums of that line.

KKaybe, perhaps one possible solution to this would be to add in an RNG factor to penetration so that penetration wasn't such a binary thing.  However, a potentially large problem I see with this though is that the sheer volume of penetration RNG calculations when you factor in all the main guns and secondary gun hits at any given instant.  Seriously, imagine having some secondary build BBs brawling with tons of sec gun hits that need to be processed.  Then add in some very high RoF CLs and DDs into that mix.  It might be too much for the servers to handle and might slow down the game.

 

Beyond that, I'm sort of left thinking what are those DDs and certain CLs supposed to do if their HE is nerfed into the sea like this?  Shoot at DDs only?  What if you're the only DD in the battle?  Are you supposed to sail all around the map looking for that lone enemy DD?  And what are you supposed to do if that DD happens to have been sunk by your team mates already?  Are you supposed to just play like you're a torp boat?  That's fine, I suppose for hybrids with at least a couple of launchers, but what if you're in a DD with only a single launcher without a torp reload booster?  Or worse, what if you're in that upcoming Dutch DD, the Friesland, that has no torpedoes?

 

I'm not sure that the Daring would become completely useless, since it does have 2 torp launchers with pretty good reloads.  I will say though that nerfing DD damage potential in this way is going to make a lot of DDs feel pretty damned weak, and not nearly as fun to play.

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Note: There's a bit of a debate going on whether pen values still get rounded up. I interpreted it as not being the case, but I could be wrong. If I *am* wrong and it does round up before calculating the new 'equal to or higher' rule, that means Daring and Jutland will be able to pen 19mm of armor without IFHE. If that's the case, that means RN DD captains will now no longer ever need IFHE which would be a HUGE blessing to that line.

That being said, ships like Haida that largely depended on IFHE on the 120s to do good damage are going to get the shaft as the 120s will pen 24mm with no rounding up. But if that's the case, then maybe a small buff to Haida specifically to compensate would go a long way.

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1 hour ago, KaptainKaybe said:

Akizuki+ got the 1/4 pen treatment specifically because the 100mm guns could not pen high tier DDs. So not sure why she got buffed, but Jutland and Daring did not.

Because Akizuki + also still receive full 33% pens from BB's and do not have heals, which is the main 'balancing' to Jutland and Daring. I agree something needs to be done, but IDK if a 'baked in' IFHE is the right answer. IMO they want to make the RN an AP heavy user (ironic with their main BB line but w/e), fine; then give them the penetration and normalization akin to their CL's so that even an angled DD still can be penned with AP, and just remove HE outright. The Daring should be a mini-Mino, not a mini-Worcestor.

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BB mains got their wish and IFHE is becoming worthless.

I wonder how long it'll be before I start seeing demands for more torpedo nerfs.

Edited by KiyoSenkan
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10 minutes ago, KaptainKaybe said:

Note: There's a bit of a debate going on whether pen values still get rounded up. I interpreted it as not being the case, but I could be wrong. If I *am* wrong and it does round up before calculating the new 'equal to or higher' rule, that means Daring and Jutland will be able to pen 19mm of armor without IFHE. If that's the case, that means RN DD captains will now no longer ever need IFHE which would be a HUGE blessing to that line.

That being said, ships like Haida that largely depended on IFHE on the 120s to do good damage are going to get the shaft as the 120s will pen 24mm with no rounding up. But if that's the case, then maybe a small buff to Haida specifically to compensate would go a long way.

From the wiki:

image.thumb.png.109ecc8523fb7f8033a9b57bc3420f61.png

The fact that you round to the nearest number without IFHE and don't round with IFHE is wacky, but for the purposes of this thread, the 113mm guns will round 18.83333... to 19 mm of penetration, so Daring and Jutland will come out ahead after this change.

That said, there is reason to be concerned for the rest of the line, since they do use 120s from tier 4 to 8. It shouldn't effect the lower tier ones all that much, but 6-8 might be hit by this a bit.

On the other other hand, Jervis and Lightning are taking names right now, with both of them having an almost 53% WR, so maybe a nerf is in order? Hard to say.

 

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9 minutes ago, _RC1138 said:

Because Akizuki + also still receive full 33% pens from BB's and do not have heals, which is the main 'balancing' to Jutland and Daring.

Note: Only Harugumo specifically (alongside Khab) takes full BB pens. Akizuki and Kitakaze take max 10% damage like every other DD.

Also, the comparison to Mino on Jutland and Daring seems on point ... but not. Mino can AP pen on ships with a mere 15% angle. The British DDs start at 22.5%, which is a noticeable difference, although still better than most other ships. Mino (and the other British CLs) also has significantly greater DPM. But when you consider that the vast majority of tier 10 DDs have 2/3rds of their firepower either bow on or aft on, it basically means that without IFHE, an enemy DD can absolutely melt a Daring if they angle sharply since Daring AP will autobounce, and Daring HE can only set fires or damage superstructures on other DDs. This is why everyone and their grandmothers takes IFHE on those ships ... which translates pretty well to the 120mm gun premiums while the +30% IFHE pen exists. But not in the future.

Here's to hoping pen values round up *before* checking for pen. Cause that would pretty much save Daring and Jutland.

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19 minutes ago, KiyoSenkan said:

BB mains got their wish and IFHE is becoming worthless.

I wonder how long it'll be before I start seeing demands for more torpedo nerfs.

IFHE is not becoming worthless. It's just no longer going to be a skill tax on light cruisers like it is currently. Right now, CLs cannot pen anything higher than 25mm of armor without IFHE, meaning zero damage against all German and USN heavy cruisers, not to mention the thicker decks and casemates on many high tier cruisers. After the change, CLs will all be able to pen up to 30mm without IFHE, meaning that IFHE will only be needed to pen the plating on high tier battleships. This means that builds without IFHE will be actually possible as the number of possible ships that can shatter their HE is going to drop dramatically. Imagine Radio Location instead on a Worcester and you basically make nearby enemy DDs p*ss themselves.

Edited by KaptainKaybe

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18 minutes ago, KiyoSenkan said:

BB mains got their wish and IFHE is becoming worthless.

And those BBS are going to burn.  Every build that drops it (and I expect a fair number will) is going to have a higher chance of setting fires.  Be careful what you wish for.

I’m going to wait to see how this shakes out, I don’t t see too much outrage going on, maybe it was totally exhausted on NTC.  However the IFHE change transpires, I expect a free respec WG :fish_glass:

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38 minutes ago, KaptainKaybe said:

IFHE is not becoming worthless. It's just no longer going to be a skill tax on light cruisers like it is currently. Right now, CLs cannot pen anything higher than 25mm of armor without IFHE, meaning zero damage against all German and USN heavy cruisers, not to mention the thicker decks and casemates on many high tier cruisers. After the change, CLs will all be able to pen up to 30mm without IFHE, meaning that IFHE will only be needed to pen the plating on high tier battleships. This means that builds without IFHE will be actually possible as the number of possible ships that can shatter their HE is going to drop dramatically. Imagine Radio Location instead on a Worcester and you basically make nearby enemy DDs p*ss themselves.

I notice you're 100% on the floor about cruisers and completely ignoring the effect this change is having on destroyers who rely on it to function.

Pretty typical, honestly. Nobody cares about destroyers until they need something capped.

EDIT: Yeah this made me see red and I said something dumb. Consider this edit an apology for that mistake.

Edited by KiyoSenkan
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2 minutes ago, KiyoSenkan said:

I notice you're 100% on the floor about cruisers and completely ignoring the effect this change is having on destroyers who rely on it to function.

Pretty typical, honestly. Nobody cares about destroyers until they need something capped.

Wait ... are you serious? Did you ... like ... not at all read the original post? *This entire thread* is about the possible nerf to some DD guns. The CL discussion is only there because people brought it up.

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32 minutes ago, KaptainKaybe said:

Wait ... are you serious? Did you ... like ... not at all read the original post? *This entire thread* is about the possible nerf to some DD guns. The CL discussion is only there because people brought it up.

And you just spent your entire paragraph crowing about how the native pen changes are good for cruisers, because that's pretty clearly all you care about.

36 minutes ago, KiyoSenkan said:

EDIT: Yeah this made me see red and I said something dumb. Consider this edit an apology for that mistake.

Edited by KiyoSenkan

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9 minutes ago, KiyoSenkan said:

And you just spent your entire paragraph crowing about how the native pen changes are good for cruisers, because that's pretty clearly all you care about.

*blinks* Okay, now I know you're trolling. You have to be. If you aren't, you may wish to *slowly* re-read this thread because you're making yourself look like an idi ... errr ... person with reading comprehension issues.

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12 minutes ago, KaptainKaybe said:

But when you consider that the vast majority of tier 10 DDs have 2/3rds of their firepower either bow on or aft on, it basically means that without IFHE, an enemy DD can absolutely melt a Daring if they angle sharply since Daring AP will autobounce, and Daring HE can only set fires or damage superstructures on other DDs.

People keep saying this, but it never actually happens in game to any meaningful degree. It just doesn't. This is nothing more than people jerking it to statistics instead of what actually happens in game.

Why? Because 99.5% of the time it's not one DD wailing at another till one fall over. It's my non-IFHE Jutland and my teams Zao 8k behind me. So please, angle against my AP while 12 8" HE shells are on their way.

If the Zao isn't there, and I'm not in a position of advantage, I just use the 8 million smokes that I get to disengage and reposition.

Such stupid DD play has been the exception for a loooong time now. You don't start shooting unless you're at a point of advantage. Most of the time you're trying to disengage anyway.

My best tactic is to bait the other DD into shooting, going dark myself, and letting my team take 5-10k of their health.

Non-IFHE builds were not a problem before the 100mm HE buff and they arn't a problem on Jutland and Daring. Provided you don't just yolo into fights and put a little bit of thought into your positioning.

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19 minutes ago, KaptainKaybe said:

*blinks* Okay, now I know you're trolling. You have to be. If you aren't, you may wish to *slowly* re-read this thread because you're making yourself look like an idi ... errr ... person with reading comprehension issues.

You go straight to insults and I'm the troll?

 

Pray tell how else am I supposed to interpret "This is great, it frees up 4 points for Worcester to become even more broken and be a nightmare for destroyers"?

36 minutes ago, KiyoSenkan said:

EDIT: Yeah this made me see red and I said something dumb. Consider this edit an apology for that mistake.

Edited by KiyoSenkan
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14 minutes ago, KiyoSenkan said:

I notice you're 100% on the floor about cruisers and completely ignoring the effect this change is having on destroyers who rely on it to function.

Pretty typical, honestly. Nobody cares about destroyers until they need something capped.

 

9 minutes ago, KiyoSenkan said:

And you just spent your entire paragraph crowing about how the native pen changes are good for cruisers, because that's pretty clearly all you care about.

Dude, I know you don't care about little things like facts and logic when they get in the way of your little irrational BB hate train, but come on. He started this thread about a concern that the new IFHE changes would hurt destroyers too much. Just because he has a nuanced view on how the changes will effect different things (something this forum needs more of) you don't need to act like some third rate click-bait artist.

4 minutes ago, KaptainKaybe said:

*blinks* Okay, now I know you're trolling. You have to be. If you aren't, you may wish to *slowly* re-read this thread because you're making yourself look like an idi ... errr ... person with reading comprehension issues.

It's not reading comprehension issues, it's reality comprehension issues. This is a guy that will blame anything on some made up cabal of "BB mains."

Heck, in the past he's said that he doesn't mind the game getting hurt if it would "put them in their place." Just do what I should have done ages ago and put him on your ignore list.

It's not like you'll be missing out on anything, after all.

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7 minutes ago, KiyoSenkan said:

You go straight to insults and I'm the troll?

Dude ... the entire point of this thread, the very subject line itself for god's sakes, is about the IFHE changes affecting DD guns. I even gave you a chance to re-read so you understand that I'm not saying that DDs are fine. After all, why would I start a thread about possible nerfs to DD guns if I wasn't concerned about, well, possible nerfs to DD guns. But then you come on here claiming I'm saying that DDs are fine. TWICE.

I mean, come on, man. Seriously? You don't expect people to treat you like a troll when your claim about the OP (me)  is the direct opposite of the very topic of this thread? No offense, but you're doing this to yourself. I don't need to say anything for other readers to look at your own posts and go 'huh?'

Edited by KaptainKaybe
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12 minutes ago, Muninn77 said:

It's not reading comprehension issues, it's reality comprehension issues. This is a guy that will blame anything on some made up cabal of "BB mains."

Yeah yeah. Just like your made-up DD Mafia that you blame for everything?

10 minutes ago, KaptainKaybe said:

Dude ... the entire point of this thread, the very subject line itself for god's sakes, is about the IFHE changes affecting DD guns. I even gave you a chance to re-read so you understand that I'm not saying that DDs are fine. After all, why would I start a thread about possible nerfs to DD guns if I wasn't concerned about, well, possible nerfs to DD guns. But then you come on here claiming I'm saying that DDs are fine. TWICE.

I mean, come on, man. Seriously? You don't expect people to treat you like a troll when your claim about the OP (me)  is the direct opposite of the very topic of this thread? No offense, but you're doing this to yourself. I don't need to say anything for other readers to look at your own posts and go 'huh?'

Reading back, the paragraph praising the change for CLs did make me see red a bit, and it completely slipped my mind that you were the OP as well.

So, sorry about that. I blew off my own context because I saw something I see entirely too often from people with far less perspective than you've demonstrated.


I've gone back and made an edit to the earlier posts.

Edited by KiyoSenkan
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7 minutes ago, KiyoSenkan said:

Yeah yeah. Just like your made-up DD Mafia that you blame for everything?

image.thumb.png.201095efb9b7e77584ffc459954b44be.png

Yeah, I hate that DD Mafia so much! I hate those jerks that like to sneak around and do scouting and hide in smoke screens. Man, if I had to look at a DD main in the mirror every day, I'd have broken so many mirrors, you don't even know.

That's sarcasm, BTW. I figured I needed to point that out, considering your behavior in this thread, as well as every other thread you derail to rant about BBs.

And real talk, I hate people who rant about "DD Mafia" just as much as I hate people who rant about "BB mains," "Skycancer," "Cruiser scum," what have you. Almost every single player who uses terms like that are more interested in pushing their own biases than actually discussing what's going on with the game.

You are just the most persistent and annoying of them.  

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3 minutes ago, Muninn77 said:

You are just the most persistent and annoying of them.  

It's like you didn't even notice the rest of the post you quoted. Unlike the me you've created in your mind, the actual me is capable of recognizing when I've made a mistake and apologizing for it.

Have a nice life, I guess.

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6 minutes ago, KiyoSenkan said:

It's like you didn't even notice the rest of the post you quoted. Unlike the me you've created in your mind, the actual me is capable of recognizing when I've made a mistake and apologizing for it.

Have a nice life, I guess.

Apologizing once for for jumping into a thread and antagonizing people because you didn't bother to read it dosn't make up for all the other times you've done the exact same thing.

Nor does it make up for all the times you've attacked the people posting arguments instead of discussing the argument itself, or putting words in peoples mouths, or just being rude and condescending for no reason, or any of the other myriad ways you make having an actual conversation based in fact on this fourm harder than it needs to be.

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3 minutes ago, Muninn77 said:

Apologizing once for for jumping into a thread and antagonizing people because you didn't bother to read it dosn't make up for all the other times you've done the exact same thing.

Nor does it make up for all the times you've attacked the people posting arguments instead of discussing the argument itself, or putting words in peoples mouths, or just being rude and condescending for no reason, or any of the other myriad ways you make having an actual conversation based in fact on this fourm harder than it needs to be.

Muninn, chill. Kiyo has already apologized for jumping the gun. No need to keep going on the offensive here.

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7 minutes ago, KaptainKaybe said:

Muninn, chill. Kiyo has already apologized for jumping the gun. No need to keep going on the offensive here.

Sorry, you're right. I'm just a bit sick of him after all the stuff he's pulled in the past, today was just the most egregious. And this is an actual good thread, (a rarity these days) so I'd be kicking myself if I got it locked.

Sorry man.

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ok, so i just did the math, for the 120s, with 1/5th pen, theyd be able to hit 24mm alone, with IFHE, 28.8mm (which i think would be rounded to 29mm), the 113s with 1/5th pen would have 22.6mm and with IFHE would hit 27mm of HE pen, so both the 120s and 113s, if they get the 1/5th pen, should, in theory, be able to at least pen CLs and most CAs(?)

Edited by tcbaker777

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