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Reymu

Naval Battles dumbed down? Really?

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https://worldofwarships.com/en/news/general-news/naval-battle-ribbons/?fbclid=IwAR2oHk9UYV5u6TTpcb1VQimdCgp2EPMt7IEoSA5ALQroheZubLrcbBbwftE

Only 1-sided stomps and sniping BBs seem to have problems. This also promises life will be difficult for torp-focused DDs since getting past 150 ribbons without MB hits is nigh-impossible. OTOH, this looks like heaven for cruisers and secondary-specced BBs!

 

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Yes, dumbed down to the max.

Changing every so often to damage like it was done once before is ok. Ribbons is silly.

So now you need a fast firing machine. BBs without secondaries need not apply. Dumb.

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I’m also puzzled why WG decided to go this direction. Getting better and better XP results for different classes from different countries represent strength and diversity of the clan while scoring numerous hits all you need is just take mid hi tier pew-pee boat and yolo for couple minutes. (Akizuki,Kitakaze,Haragumo,Khaba,Udaloy,any light cruiser really)

 

seems this just repeats general pattern of latest WG direction: make everything more popular, arcade, lower IQ tasking and simplify to level of Mario Carts...

i don’t think attracting more kids will bring any money to the game - not sure why this is done

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2 minutes ago, SlartiBartFastE2 said:

I’m also puzzled why WG decided to go this direction. Getting better and better XP results for different classes from different countries represent strength and diversity of the clan while scoring numerous hits all you need is just take mid hi tier pew-pee boat and yolo for couple minutes. (Akizuki,Kitakaze,Haragumo,Khaba,Udaloy,any light cruiser really)

 

seems this just repeats general pattern of latest WG direction: make everything more popular, arcade, lower IQ tasking and simplify to level of Mario Carts...

i don’t think attracting more kids will bring any money to the game - not sure why this is done

Because they're desperate. Simple as that. The entire development cycle for the past year - and what we will likely see moving forward - reeks of panic.

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Regarding Naval Battles, iKami said a few weeks ago, "We want you captains to participate."      This was when WG had just tried "damage based" for two weeks, and then went back to "base xp-based."       

My argument at the time was that my clan is social in nature, and half our members are co-op only.   WG allows people who only play co-op to join clans, so in my opinion, Naval Battles should cater to all potential players (random/co-op.)     My observation was that our co-op players were able to play the damage-based NB's, thereby participating (the exact thing said by iKami) to the building of our clan base.

I'm guessing WG just hasn't yet found a happy medium, and this is yet another NB trial & error.     If this weeks NB allows more participation for all members of my clan, then I'm excited for that.  

Edited by ThumperD702
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Heyo Captains,

We would like to assure you we're not in a state of panic, we are merely trying a new idea of Naval Battles, similar to what we did when we briefly changed it to damage a short while ago.

This change will only be active for 2 weeks (July 1st-15th) and is to encourage variety in gameplay. At the end of this period, it will revert to the standard EXP metric.

We appreciate your feedback concerning some of the slower shooting ships (BBs for example) it is something we will access at the end of the period ahead of potentially using this metric again in this method.

Fem, 

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Ribbons = everyone will play, but literally no challenge.

BXP = Mostly random players, very little involvement from the PVE crowd.

Damage = Everyone can play, WG just needs to figure out a fair system so both PVE and Random players can be on a level playing field.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Femennenly said:

Heyo Captains,

We would like to assure you we're not in a state of panic, we are merely trying a new idea of Naval Battles, similar to what we did when we briefly changed it to damage a short while ago.

This change will only be active for 2 weeks (July 1st-15th) and is to encourage variety in gameplay. At the end of this period, it will revert to the standard EXP metric.

We appreciate your feedback concerning some of the slower shooting ships (BBs for example) it is something we will access at the end of the period ahead of potentially using this metric again in this method.

Fem, 

What do you mean by "Standard"? This mode has no standard. Is it XP or damage? Are the XP bars 10 XP apart, 50 XP apart or 250 apart? Oh, let's try damage. 

Last week was just silly at 250 XP between stars. That was wayyyyyyy too much. I wish WG would leave it lower to encourage more teams to try it. The higher bars just lock many lower skilled clans out. I think ribbons is also silly as people will just play faster-firing ships and ribbons don't equate to damage or XP at all. This will just be a frustrating weekend to play honestly. 

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Just now, saintsfan1622000 said:

What do you mean by "Standard"? This mode has no standard. Is it XP or damage? Are the XP bars 10 XP apart, 50 XP apart or 250 apart? Oh, let's try damage. 

Last week was just silly at 250 XP between stars. That was wayyyyyyy too much. I wish WG would leave it lower to encourage more teams to try it. The higher bars just lock many lower skilled clans out. I think ribbons is also silly as people will just play faster-firing ships and ribbons don't equate to damage or XP at all. This will just be a frustrating weekend to play honestly. 

Sorry, standard was maybe the wrong use of words in this case. Typically the metric has been EXP, this what I meant.

Fem, 

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Problem with it being base XP is as the levels get higher you are reliant on your team getting the win to to ensure you hit your target. Nothing more annoying than to miss out by a few points because your team lost. At least with it being ribbons, or when it was damage, it's on you to do it and not your team to carry you there.

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Gave up caring about this line of events weeks ago, along with most of the people I know. It's not targeted at us, so now I just :Smile_popcorn:.

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I do like these events, thoughI prefer EXP or damage for prep with base xp for naval battles. So it seems to be both fun and challenging for all players. The ribbon mode feels like one to far for co op. I prefer torp boats and BBs, so ended up taking my Atlanta and my Tirpitz into coop just to focus on farming a couple of games and that mostly did it. You don't have to play conservatively in co op which is what makes it a lot of fun at times but I prefer a challenge to my grinds.

Edited by Tanuvein
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Hmm well l hope they keep changing it up. I like the variety. Since both clans are playing by the same rules I could care less what metric is used. Rotate thru all of them as far as I am concerned. Hell make up new ones if you can.

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Change is so hard.

 

The endless whining when anything changes is tiring. The realty is WoWS is an online game. The expectation is online games need to change to keep the player base engaged. Stagnant games are dead games. Why is this so hard to understand?

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10 minutes ago, Forum_Troll said:

After looking at this.  Secondary BBs and Machine gun ships are going to be loving this change.

I could even see ships like the Missouri doing ok in this.  :cap_like:

I think the balanced way to do this is pretty simple:

  • Lower the XP needed.  Maybe start around 300 and go up by 100 points each.
  • Remove the Win bonus as it relates to naval battles.
  • Reduce the Co-Op penalty, again, as it relates to Naval Battles.  I don't know what the current penalty is, but reduce it significantly.  There are only 8 targets in Co-Op matches and a few of them will suicide.  XP gain is going to be limited anyways.

There you go :)

Edited by Old_Baldy_One
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1 hour ago, Femennenly said:

Heyo Captains,

We would like to assure you we're not in a state of panic, we are merely trying a new idea of Naval Battles, similar to what we did when we briefly changed it to damage a short while ago.

This change will only be active for 2 weeks (July 1st-15th) and is to encourage variety in gameplay. At the end of this period, it will revert to the standard EXP metric.

We appreciate your feedback concerning some of the slower shooting ships (BBs for example) it is something we will access at the end of the period ahead of potentially using this metric again in this method.

Fem, 

Femm, I think that main gun hits would work a little better than ribbons.  With ribbons, it becomes much more difficult to scale the levels to ship type.  For example, with main gun hits, you don't have to worry about the difference between bad secondary BBs and strong secondary BBs, since they're all going to fire their main guns at roughly the same speed (and the few with fewer main guns often have faster reloads to compensate for those fewer main guns).

The only place where I can see some difficulty is between light and heavy cruisers.  CLs will obviously have an advantage over slower firing heavy cruisers.

Note though that the KEY is that ship types should have different goals.  Having goals like 50, 100, 150, etc. would be fine for high RoF ships but bad for slow firing BBs.  The goals need to be scaled to the ship type and their general RoF to make them reasonably achievable for the players.

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@Femennenly Just go ahead and put an end to all the whining about the scoring methods.

Just halt the Naval Battles feature altogether and reduce the oil awarded for each container to 1.

That will give them something to whine about.

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8 minutes ago, Crucis said:

Femm, I think that main gun hits would work a little better than ribbons.  With ribbons, it becomes much more difficult to scale the levels to ship type.  For example, with main gun hits, you don't have to worry about the difference between bad secondary BBs and strong secondary BBs, since they're all going to fire their main guns at roughly the same speed (and the few with fewer main guns often have faster reloads to compensate for those fewer main guns).

The only place where I can see some difficulty is between light and heavy cruisers.  CLs will obviously have an advantage over slower firing heavy cruisers.

Note though that the KEY is that ship types should have different goals.  Having goals like 50, 100, 150, etc. would be fine for high RoF ships but bad for slow firing BBs.  The goals need to be scaled to the ship type and their general RoF to make them reasonably achievable for the players.

I would think there would be too many advantages to specific types of ships.  Torp DDs, heavy cruisers, 30 second reload BBs would be at a serious disadvantage over ships like Haru, Wooster, Mino, Jean Bart, etc.

Ribbons I think is just a bad idea to balance.  I agree your system would be better than just "ribbons" though.

Edited by Old_Baldy_One

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2 minutes ago, Old_Baldy_One said:

I would think there would be too many advantages to specific types of ships.  Torp DDs, heavy cruisers, 30 second reload BBs would be at a serious disadvantage over ships like Haru, Wooster, Mino, Jean Bart, etc.

Ribbons I think is just a bad idea to balance.

Frankly, the IJN DDs are a mess in this regard because you have two distinctly different lines.  The IJN torp boats will never do well in a ribbons based OR a main gun based event.  OTOH, IJN gunboats would excel.   But also remember that in Naval Battles, there really isn't any contest between, say, USN BBs and French BBs.  First, it's all about the total number of stars earned.  And second, the advantage you gain in getting more stars than the other team comes from out-starring the other team in each slot.  That is, out starring them in USN BBs, and every other nation's BBs.  But NOT USN BBs versus French BBs.

Also note that if this was done properly, the goal levels for battleships should be different than those for cruisers which should in turn be different than those for DDs.  And if they really wanted to put in a little extra effort, the NBs devs could adjust the goal levels within each general type to balance out, for example, any RoF differences between, say, IJN BBs and French BBs.  But honestly, I think that if the goal levels were the same for all nations within each ship type, it'd be good enough.

 

Side note:  Back to IJN DDs, no matter what metric is used (damage, base XP, ribbons, main gun hits, etc.), in my opinion, the IJN torp boats will always be less reliable in achieving these goals than their IJN gunboat counterparts for the simple reason that producing damage with guns is easier and more consistent than is producing damage with torpedoes.    About the only metric where IJN torp boats would shine would be torp hits or torp damage.  But it should be fairly obvious that unless WG was going to run a version of NBs that was DDs only, using a torp hits or torp damage metric would never be done for the simple and obvious reason that so many non-DDs don't even mount torpedoes.

 

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2 hours ago, Reymu said:

https://worldofwarships.com/en/news/general-news/naval-battle-ribbons/?fbclid=IwAR2oHk9UYV5u6TTpcb1VQimdCgp2EPMt7IEoSA5ALQroheZubLrcbBbwftE

Only 1-sided stomps and sniping BBs seem to have problems. This also promises life will be difficult for torp-focused DDs since getting past 150 ribbons without MB hits is nigh-impossible. OTOH, this looks like heaven for cruisers and secondary-specced BBs!

 

I'm not sure it's "dumbed down" but it does force Clans to completely reconsider how to approach this. 

It seems that the key to maximizing star production will be the choice of vessels used in each nation and type and, unfortunately, it will also like create the need for some vessels to be played in a way that is not necessarily to their strengths. Clans with figure this out the best and are able to implement it will have the advantage over clans that don't. 

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I play both Co-op and Random - and I know that it is somewhat challenging to clear the 300 base XP hurdle on most ships in Co-op - but anything higher is rather difficult (in Co-op) - So with clans that are heavier in Co-op players, there is a base level of stars that are possible, then it falls to the players who will run Randoms to try to clean up a couple more stars.  I can usually clear the 900 bar in a Random - but the 1200 is tough unless you win the engagement - and anything higher is a crap shoot

Damage based stars are cool - but then it is weighted very heavily to Co-op play - I can take a DD into Co-op and get 50-100k everytime, not so in Randoms

I prefer either the base XP with smaller increments (300 - 500 - 700...)  or  Damage based with some kind of balancing for Co-op and Random (maybe a multiplier for Random?)

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Theyve changed the xp levels. They were at damage a few weeks ago. How is this more difficult for anyone than trying to pop off 1500base xp knowing you're at the whims of a random team where if you lose you better have had a monster game to pull it off. Not really an issue imo. 

 150 ribbons is a lot easier in a coop than 1500 base xp has ever been. I have T6 BBs that can pull that off without even trying. I've pulled 150 ribbons in a random in Dreadnought and SC. No, the sky isnt falling. Yes a couple of DDs might have an issue. I seriously doubt many people have a port filled with nothing but 4 gun IJN torp boats.

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5 hours ago, wildgooseman said:

Problem with it being base XP is as the levels get higher you are reliant on your team getting the win to to ensure you hit your target. Nothing more annoying than to miss out by a few points because your team lost. At least with it being ribbons, or when it was damage, it's on you to do it and not your team to carry you there.

This.

Plus, either damage or ribbons keeps the PvE crowd in the fight for longer, and it's more inclusive of the entire playerbase. You cannot be robbed of your magnificent effort because your team threw it, and you cannot rely on your team to make the result for you. It's the reason WG went over to Directives or the Go Navy/RU BB format instead of things like the Indianapolis Marathon. It's telling that that one hasn't been repeated since, and I hope it never is.

Edited by Ensign_Cthulhu

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