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The_Chiv

Wargaming lacks direction

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Before we get into this rant I want to say I am not a CV main, BB main, or DD main. If I had to be a classed as a main it would be CA. Though I consider myself more omni rather than die-hard one class. It is because I have gone the jack of all trades master of none approach I have been able to see multiple perspectives in any debate when it comes to class interactions.

Now that we have the disclaimer done let's begin.

 

The title of this post may come off a bit hyperbolic, and some of you may think this is another cv too weak whine. I assure you it isn't. Throughout the life of this game, there has been one class that has been able to swing a game more often and was the most important asset to any team. Destroyers. Fact is Destroyers provide vision, caping, and have the highest damage per projectile of any other unit. This combined with small size, stealth, smoke, and agility made destroyers a very difficult target to engage. And that became kinda the problem.

The average player in this game only looks at what they accomplish as a validation of their efforts. How often have you seen this gem of logic? "I did 200k damage and killed that battleship". Yes, they did 200k. Yes, it was to a battleship, however, 120k was to the same battleship and most of it was fire-based and was easily repaired away. Now, this isn't to say attacking a bb is wrong, far from it. What we see in-game is players tend to shoot the easiest of targets. before anything else. Sadly that will always be a BB. Their size pretty much means as long as your lead is decent your dispersion will most likely give you 50% or more hits per salvo. Again shooting at a bb is not bad.

Where this becomes a problem is when people actively ignore a dd that they can see to shoot at a bb. I wish I could say this is isolated, but I have seen this pretty much every single game now in 8.5. No one is hunting DDS, No one is engaging dds. And now DD ranks are pretty consistent at 4 per side in every match. So what happened? 

 

lets backtrack a bit.

Pre 8.0

I wish I could say in pre 8.0 players were more active in anti dd warfare. There were some who were but they would make up less than 1% of the player base. Most would still damage farm on bbs because they only look at their own accomplishments rather than winning. Every time WG tried to curb this a bit the dd community cried foul. Any dd hunting ship was nerfed. From radar dd ships to CL with radar. They all got scaled back. The only change wg made to DD to deal with them was to limit to 4 in a match. 

8.0+

With the return of cvs and the introduction of a new type of air units the supremacy DDS enjoyed had taken a hit, a pretty big one in fact. And like every other time DD supremacy was challenged they took to the forums to complain. This time they were not alone. WG in its inability to do AA correctly combined with some dodgy design choices left every other class enraged, though to be honest a skilled cv in pre 8.0 could and would do way worse. So bowing to complaints WG began changing things. And it got to a point where there was a tactical balance. BBS ate CA. DD ate BB, CV ate DD and CA nibbled on everyone. Yet in order to have this balance, all builds had to be pretty much a cookie-cutter aa build.

8.5

So with 8.5 wargaming backtracked the AA to the previous version in the pre 8.0 where damage was one plane at a time. The logic to this was that it would create more of a feeling of usefulness to aa rather than having aa being spread about and seeing little return for the effort. Sadly though this had another consequence.  The grouping tactic no made any attempt to even get a single attack on a ship impossible and CV's were left struggling to do even 40k damage at t8 and 10. So CV's got shelved again making the whole damn rework a waste of time and an act of futility.

 

So the rework has failed, and not because it was a bad system. The concept was great, but the counterplay was always a problem. WG's attempt to fix this actually caused more harm to the rework then anything else. By reverting the damage to one plane at a time like in the pre 8.0 era you completely negate the potential of 2nd or 3rd strikes even on isolated targets. Many people pointed this out in the PTS and on these forums, only to be met with constant attacks. AA needed some work no one will argue this, but what WG has done is more of the same knee jerk reaction that swings the balance 180 degrees the opposite direction. 

So what can be done? I mean you can't have a rant without a possible solution or else all you are doing is making a wall of text to satisfy your ego. There will never be a solution everyone is happy with, no matter what DD players will keep trying to bash everything that threatens them and downplaying their importance. As it stands the current AA model of 1 plane at a time is a bit extreme. My suggestion is a bit complex, however, 100% in the realm of possible under the constraints of the systems available. When a cv attack a target with its planes 1,2,3,4 planes break from the squad to make the attack. This is the value at which aa should be distributed. This would allow CV's to be able to push a single attack but suffer enough to make further attacks a gamble, it gives value to different torp bomber setups, and it has the added bonus of ensuring the rework was not he biggest waste of time ever. Now if WG did implement this they would have to do one other thing. STOP LISTENING TO FORUMS AND FOCUS ONLY ON DATA.

 

 

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1 minute ago, The_Chiv said:

No one is hunting DDS, No one is engaging dds.

ask any dd player when a cv is on the enemy team, if this is true.

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Just now, LoveBote said:

ask any dd player when a cv is on the enemy team, if this is true.

I would if I saw a cv any time recently

 

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Could you explain what the highest damage per projectile is? Do you mean torpedoes?

Anyway,  DD players on forums aren't representative of the class as a whole, nor it's performance. DD Mafia exists, as does the CV Lodge, the Cruiser Syndicate, the BB Cartel. Some got a louder voice than others, but in the end it's meaningless compared to the true objective of WG, aka profit. 

I also find it kinda ironic how immediately after the patch CV players come to rage and complain, doing the exact same thing  they were accusing "mains" of other classes.  

Bottom line, the rework was a resounding  success. A success in tribalism and splitting the community.

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It's a surface ship game.  CVs didn't really fit in the RTS mode but at the CVs could fight each other in a little mini game on top of the actual game.  

CVs will never fit.  They will generate enormous amounts of frustration on both sides of the equation as the nerfs/buffs continue forever.  So maybe in that sense, the rework was a success.  The level of frustration has never been higher.

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34 minutes ago, The_Chiv said:

STOP LISTENING TO FORUMS AND FOCUS ONLY ON DATA.

That's what spawned the Rework in the first place, and look how that tuned out.

Wonky obsession with spread sheets can never parse for fun, and fun is what games are all about.

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6 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

Could you explain what the highest damage per projectile is? Do you mean torpedoes?

Anyway,  DD players on forums aren't representative of the class as a whole, nor it's performance. DD Mafia exists, as does the CV Lodge, the Cruiser Syndicate, the BB Cartel. Some got a louder voice than others, but in the end it's meaningless compared to the true objective of WG, aka profit. 

I also find it kinda ironic how immediately after the patch CV players come to rage and complain, doing the exact same thing  they were accusing "mains" of other classes.  

Bottom line, the rework was a resounding  success. A success in tribalism and splitting the community.

While all that's a logical conclusion, the bottom line they ask themselves indeed revolves around revenue or more precisely, net income. "After all this effort and resources spent, are we making profit enough to continue with the game?"

Initially I'd say yes, they did. I'm probably not representative of many players here, but I'm purely switched over F2P. I really wanted to buy some premium carriers but they dorked them up so much I passed on the initial purchase. The only carriers I'm even remotely interested in purchase are delayed, delayed and can you say it, delayed? 

Toss in the most recent insult as I truly see it and have been very precise in identifying: "We make fix, you pay for it, free respec? Hah, we laugh at your expectations" and my checking account is now currently off-limits to them. I could care less if everyone everywhere already had that commander skill. I can't be the only one who felt it wasn't worth the skill points. But hey, seriously now, just how much impact do the commander skill for carriers impact the game overall? Probably not as much as you think. 

I've played oh, maybe three random CV games since the hot patch? Maybe. The only place I'm playing carriers now is T6 in operations and T4 in randoms. 

Which leads me to believe their reason for injecting so many premiums into the game is strictly, purely an effort to raise some money. Otherwise, they could have easily doled them out over a few months, potentially earning more cash. Now also comes a push for subs; if we don't see them by fall, I admit I'll be totally amazed. 

They could be their own tech trees there were so many subs in WWI and WWII. It's an untapped gold mine; they know it, they know there's a pent-up demand. All they need to do is be at least as good with them as they were with 0.8.0. carrier release and bam, home run. 

I see things weirdly I reckon. But I'd say they are on their true course now... totally focused on income, placating players when/where needed, not letting any one issue get out of hand. They don't want pitchforks/torches and so far you must admit, they've done a great job avoiding both. 

They're fine. It's the players who may have lost their way. :cap_cool:

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6 minutes ago, CommodoreKang said:

It's a surface ship game.  CVs didn't really fit in the RTS mode but at the CVs could fight each other in a little mini game on top of the actual game.  

CVs will never fit.  They will generate enormous amounts of frustration on both sides of the equation as the nerfs/buffs continue forever.  So maybe in that sense, the rework was a success.  The level of frustration has never been higher.

Your level of frustration has never been higher? I can't wait till subs hit the game. Your head will probably pop like a 3 day old whitehead pimple. 

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4 minutes ago, CommodoreKang said:

It's a surface ship game.  CVs didn't really fit in the RTS mode but at the CVs could fight each other in a little mini game on top of the actual game.  

CVs will never fit.  They will generate enormous amounts of frustration on both sides of the equation as the nerfs/buffs continue forever.  So maybe in that sense, the rework was a success.  The level of frustration has never been higher.

cv's were in the first waves of ships in the alpha. then it was US had cvs but IJN had bbs. To say it's a surface ship game is a bit of a reach. The only reason people think this is because before the rework a cv game was a very rare thing. Kinda like a unicorn. CV play then was also way more difficult then any other class so when they spiked hard on an enemy there was less complaints.

Wg simplified cv and made it very user-friendly while nerfing alpha significantly, but still players adapted...At least cv players did. If you go back and look at every non cv player talk about builds and useless skills most listed maa as useless. It wasn't until that wow wiki mod exposed it to be the most important aa skill ever that people started using it, but by then aa changes were already lined up.

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Just now, Herr_Reitz said:

Your level of frustration has never been higher? I can't wait till subs hit the game. Your head will probably pop like a 3 day old whitehead pimple. 

Subs move around the map just like everything else does.  They can't spot the entire map at will.  And they are limited to torps which are the worst damage dealers in the game.  The BBs (and CVs maybe) may feel differently.

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4 minutes ago, Idaho_Spud said:

That's what spawned the Rework in the first place, and look how that tuned out.

Wonky obsession with spread sheets can never parse for fun, and fun is what games are all about.

Fun is subjective. Some find playing against 4 dds unfun. Some fine heavy bb games unfun. 

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I think you're way off base. Don't agree with pretty much anything you have to say. And no, I'm not a member of any DD mafia.  

- DDs reign supreme without CV as a hard counter: Most players understand that shooting DDs is a game winning play and that you're rewarded exponentially more for damage done to a DD than you are for damage done to a BB. The proliferation of high DPM radar cruisers at T8+ continues to provide significant threat to DDs. While they have the "highest damage projectile" torps also have the lowest hit rate of all weapons in the game. 

There was tactical balance thanks to CVs: Absolutely hysterical. At no point between 8.0 and 8.4 was there tactical balance. It was CV >>> everything with the side effect that most DDs stopped playing period. 

The data from 8.0 to 8.4 showed CV leading in average damage, kills, spotting damage, and survivability. Is that the data you want WG to listen to? And what does that say? Tactical balance achieved?

Give me a break!  

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Just now, The_Chiv said:

cv's were in the first waves of ships in the alpha. then it was US had cvs but IJN had bbs. To say it's a surface ship game is a bit of a reach. The only reason people think this is because before the rework a cv game was a very rare thing. Kinda like a unicorn. CV play then was also way more difficult then any other class so when they spiked hard on an enemy there was less complaints.

Wg simplified cv and made it very user-friendly while nerfing alpha significantly, but still players adapted...At least cv players did. If you go back and look at every non cv player talk about builds and useless skills most listed maa as useless. It wasn't until that wow wiki mod exposed it to be the most important aa skill ever that people started using it, but by then aa changes were already lined up.

CVs were problematic from before the alpha  They went through several iterations before launch.  Because they have never fit in the game.  And they never will.  

The problem with RTS CVs was that the winner of the CV mini game got to roll over the surface game with impunity.  Now they get to roll over the surface game with impunity without having to duel the enemy CV.  And less alpha doesn't really change that equation.

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Just now, exray0 said:

- DDs reign supreme without CV as a hard counter: Most players understand that shooting DDs is a game winning play and that you're rewarded exponentially more for damage done to a DD than you are for damage done to a BB. The proliferation of high DPM radar cruisers at T8+ continues to provide significant threat to DDs. While they have the "highest damage projectile" torps also have the lowest hit rate of all weapons in the game. 

This is a falsehood. While you would think people know this, their actions speak volumes more. Fact is most don't shoot at DDS because seeing 1 or 2 hits from 9 or more shells fired is completely unsatisfying. And then you have dds hunting dds this also is a no go as it negates the strongest aspect of a DDS defence stealth. So when you add all this together what you see most games ending with the winning team having most of its dds. pre 8.5 this was not the case. pre 8.0 this was the case.

 

 
 
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4 minutes ago, exray0 said:

There was tactical balance thanks to CVs: Absolutely hysterical. At no point between 8.0 and 8.4 was there tactical balance. It was CV >>> everything with the side effect that most DDs stopped playing period.   

Again a falsehood. I and many other people in cruisers, bbs, and even dds showed how to mitigate and negate a cv. The fact that most refused to change captain skills or see the value in aa mods is 100% user error and does not support your statement.

Your own experience is just that. Your OWN! To say they were a standard is not only absurd but just a downright lie. Fact is this is a post about AA and wg inability to balance to save their life and a way to keep cvs relevant without punishing. And what do you do. Downplay the importance of dd's while trying to twist a narrative of cv oppression. And yet you claim to not be dd Mafia....Nice troll sir.

 

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9 minutes ago, CommodoreKang said:

CVs were problematic from before the alpha  They went through several iterations before launch.  Because they have never fit in the game.  And they never will.  

The problem with RTS CVs was that the winner of the CV mini game got to roll over the surface game with impunity.  Now they get to roll over the surface game with impunity without having to duel the enemy CV.  And less alpha doesn't really change that equation.

The problem with cv's has always been skill gap between opposing cv's. The rework sought to balance that. To some degree they did, but they messed it up so badly its not even funny. 

Lets be real. No other class can have its attack 100% negated by 2x consumables and grouping with others.

Most of the time a cv could make 1 single attack per run. Thats like saying a bb can only use 1 turret per salvo, and yet no one ever acknowledged this. The aa rework as it stands is to oppressive and as we have seen cv play is back to pre rework levels.

14 minutes ago, Idaho_Spud said:

Of course it is. That's why wonkery is no substitute for customer satisfaction.

so when will we see agility and stealth nerfs to dds?

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First of all "data" won't solve this issue....  Because, it's not a game play issue:  it's a revenue and market placement issue that is driving substandard game products and game play mechanics.  That is the root cause of all of this.  MONEY.

Then, let's talk about data and the validity of data.  The data collected is so skewed, even if our host would give us terabytes of data, chances are that it would be so corrupt that we'd never be able to "validate it".....  No validated data, no validated conclusions...  So, data is off the table for sure...

Money is driving the decline in quality game mechanics.   As I have said countless times before, this whole discussion is about our host de evolving the game into a portable; e-commerce; young adult (14-24); simplified gameplay; FPS Arcade FFA game with simplicity and micro transactions at the root of all changes....  In other words, they are pushing the Baby Boomers out (whom want quality and historical accuracy) and catering to the "Like" generation of players who thrive on constant change, are mostly on prescription drugs because they can't handle life and spend their parents money like a Goose poops grass....   That is what IS going on.   Have you ever visited an e-Sports club at an University or local business???  There is no solution because our host is doing this with or without us.  It's where the "real money" is in this market today !!!

Carriers at 8.0 are a prime example of what the US and EU governments are looking into.......  Why?  Because video gaming is a 100 billion dollar a year business....AND, they want their cut of that.....   Any other questions?  Money talks and History walks and.............look at Mad Max on water and that, is what we'll see more of.......  Resistance is Futile.

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18 minutes ago, The_Chiv said:

This is a falsehood. While you would think people know this, their actions speak volumes more. Fact is most don't shoot at DDS

19 minutes ago, The_Chiv said:

The fact that most refused to change captain skills or see the value in aa mods is 100% user error and does not support your statement.

You're presenting your subjective opinion as facts; they aren't. Your own is experience is also just that, your own.

Fact is nobody shoots at DDs? LOL.

Fact is you and other people showed how to mitigate and negate CV? The same data that had CV top of the pile in all relevant stats disagrees.  

We didn't find value in captain skills or AA mods? Probably because outside of MAA they're all garbage. 

Don't put words in my mouth - I'm not trying to downplay DDs at all. They are extremely important to winning but I don't think they need CV as a hard counter. I also don't need to twist any narratives here, CVs have been oppressive for six months.

I'm sure AA/plane health values will be tweaked again if need be to swing the needle back toward the CV side but right now there is a very fine line for CV between "relevant" and "broken OP" which is where we've been since 8.0 dropped. 

 

Edited by exray0
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1 hour ago, The_Chiv said:

Before we get into this rant I want to say I am not a CV main, BB main, or DD main. If I had to be a classed as a main it would be CA. Though I consider myself more omni rather than die-hard one class. It is because I have gone the jack of all trades master of none approach I have been able to see multiple perspectives in any debate when it comes to class interactions.

Now that we have the disclaimer done let's begin.

 

The title of this post may come off a bit hyperbolic, and some of you may think this is another cv too weak whine. I assure you it isn't. Throughout the life of this game, there has been one class that has been able to swing a game more often and was the most important asset to any team. Destroyers. Fact is Destroyers provide vision, caping, and have the highest damage per projectile of any other unit. This combined with small size, stealth, smoke, and agility made destroyers a very difficult target to engage. And that became kinda the problem.

The average player in this game only looks at what they accomplish as a validation of their efforts. How often have you seen this gem of logic? "I did 200k damage and killed that battleship". Yes, they did 200k. Yes, it was to a battleship, however, 120k was to the same battleship and most of it was fire-based and was easily repaired away. Now, this isn't to say attacking a bb is wrong, far from it. What we see in-game is players tend to shoot the easiest of targets. before anything else. Sadly that will always be a BB. Their size pretty much means as long as your lead is decent your dispersion will most likely give you 50% or more hits per salvo. Again shooting at a bb is not bad.

Where this becomes a problem is when people actively ignore a dd that they can see to shoot at a bb. I wish I could say this is isolated, but I have seen this pretty much every single game now in 8.5. No one is hunting DDS, No one is engaging dds. And now DD ranks are pretty consistent at 4 per side in every match. So what happened? 

 

lets backtrack a bit.

Pre 8.0

I wish I could say in pre 8.0 players were more active in anti dd warfare. There were some who were but they would make up less than 1% of the player base. Most would still damage farm on bbs because they only look at their own accomplishments rather than winning. Every time WG tried to curb this a bit the dd community cried foul. Any dd hunting ship was nerfed. From radar dd ships to CL with radar. They all got scaled back. The only change wg made to DD to deal with them was to limit to 4 in a match. 

8.0+

With the return of cvs and the introduction of a new type of air units the supremacy DDS enjoyed had taken a hit, a pretty big one in fact. And like every other time DD supremacy was challenged they took to the forums to complain. This time they were not alone. WG in its inability to do AA correctly combined with some dodgy design choices left every other class enraged, though to be honest a skilled cv in pre 8.0 could and would do way worse. So bowing to complaints WG began changing things. And it got to a point where there was a tactical balance. BBS ate CA. DD ate BB, CV ate DD and CA nibbled on everyone. Yet in order to have this balance, all builds had to be pretty much a cookie-cutter aa build.

8.5

So with 8.5 wargaming backtracked the AA to the previous version in the pre 8.0 where damage was one plane at a time. The logic to this was that it would create more of a feeling of usefulness to aa rather than having aa being spread about and seeing little return for the effort. Sadly though this had another consequence.  The grouping tactic no made any attempt to even get a single attack on a ship impossible and CV's were left struggling to do even 40k damage at t8 and 10. So CV's got shelved again making the whole damn rework a waste of time and an act of futility.

 

So the rework has failed, and not because it was a bad system. The concept was great, but the counterplay was always a problem. WG's attempt to fix this actually caused more harm to the rework then anything else. By reverting the damage to one plane at a time like in the pre 8.0 era you completely negate the potential of 2nd or 3rd strikes even on isolated targets. Many people pointed this out in the PTS and on these forums, only to be met with constant attacks. AA needed some work no one will argue this, but what WG has done is more of the same knee jerk reaction that swings the balance 180 degrees the opposite direction. 

So what can be done? I mean you can't have a rant without a possible solution or else all you are doing is making a wall of text to satisfy your ego. There will never be a solution everyone is happy with, no matter what DD players will keep trying to bash everything that threatens them and downplaying their importance. As it stands the current AA model of 1 plane at a time is a bit extreme. My suggestion is a bit complex, however, 100% in the realm of possible under the constraints of the systems available. When a cv attack a target with its planes 1,2,3,4 planes break from the squad to make the attack. This is the value at which aa should be distributed. This would allow CV's to be able to push a single attack but suffer enough to make further attacks a gamble, it gives value to different torp bomber setups, and it has the added bonus of ensuring the rework was not he biggest waste of time ever. Now if WG did implement this they would have to do one other thing. STOP LISTENING TO FORUMS AND FOCUS ONLY ON DATA.

 

 

I play DD’s, BBs and CA/Cl

dont particularly enjoy CVs in game in any class except in a BB; the rework nerfed the CV ability to harm most BBs.  

I found it problematic that the higher tier US cruisers could get blapped by a CV with minimal effect from my AA.

my experience when I play a DD is that everyone shoots at you when you are spotted.  The exception is of the guns are facing the wrong direction 

radar and hydro also counter DDs.

there is no counter to CVs unless AA is effective

Edited by General_WTSherman

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19 minutes ago, exray0 said:

The proliferation of high DPM radar cruisers at T8+

There's exactly 8: Chappy, Cleveland/Montpelier, Seattle, Worcester, DM/Salem, Edinburgh, Neptune, and Minotaur.

The other 7 radar cruisers, Kron, Stalingrad, Dimitri, Moskva, Baltimore, Buffalo, and Alaska, at that tier range are not generally considered high DPM.

There are in total, 36 Cruisers in the T8+ range. If you look at it as a % of High DPM's, only 22% of all cruisers you can face are high DPM + Radar. If you extend it to include ALL radar cruisers, it is 42%. Since I assume you are fine with destroyers, having radar we won't discuss the additional 4, soon to be 5, that have radar. And the Missouri is a battleship so the very antithesis of high DPM.

Then if you extend this to total ships at those tiers, ignoring even CV's, 32 BB's, 34 Destroyers, brings the % of radar ships total to a mere 7% and 16%, with the Missouri counted.

So 'proliferation' is a bit strong.

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4 minutes ago, General_WTSherman said:

I play DD’s, BBs and CA/Cl

dont particularly enjoy CVs in game in any class except in a BB; the rework nerfed the CV ability to harm most BBs.  

I found it problematic that the higher tier US cruisers could get blapped by a CV with minimal effect from my AA.

my experience when I play a DD is that everyone shoots at you when you are spotted.  The exception is of the guns are facing the wrong direction 

radar and hydro also counter DDs.

there is no counter to CVs unless AA is effective

There is effective aa and then there is what we have. Before 8.5 I was able to get the atago to to 40 plane kills. IJN didnt have great aa to start but the right skills and mods and usage of consumable turned a ship not known for great aa into a beast. This was not a 1 time thing either. Infact i was able to do this pretty consistently. Apply that same base logic to my other cruisers I was able to do the same thing. So the tools were there before 8.5, just most were either not using them or using them poorly.

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45 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

A success in tribalism and splitting the community.

There have been too many casualties already.  From what I see it is the toxic and somewhat depressing attitude of a very few (tribes) in the community that is dissuading the new and average  players from pushing the BATTLE button. I don't have statistics but I bet there has been a dramatic dip in play by the middle-class in this game.  This same group spends small amounts of money consistently.

The drop in revenue hurts us all unfortunately. There are so many ways to enjoy this game. If we all could just become part of the solution.

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10 minutes ago, Asym_KS said:

First of all "data" won't solve this issue....  Because, it's not a game play issue:  it's a revenue and market placement issue that is driving substandard game products and game play mechanics.  That is the root cause of all of this.  MONEY.

Then, let's talk about data and the validity of data.  The data collected is so skewed, even if our host would give us terabytes of data, chances are that it would be so corrupt that we'd never be able to "validate it".....  No validated data, no validated conclusions...  So, data is off the table for sure...

Money is driving the decline in quality game mechanics.   As I have said countless times before, this whole discussion is about our host de evolving the game into a portable; e-commerce; young adult (14-24); simplified gameplay; FPS Arcade FFA game with simplicity and micro transactions at the root of all changes....  In other words, they are pushing the Baby Boomers out (whom want quality and historical accuracy) and catering to the "Like" generation of players who thrive on constant change, are mostly on prescription drugs because they can't handle life and spend their parents money like a Goose poops grass....   That is what IS going on.   Have you ever visited an e-Sports club at an University or local business???  There is no solution because our host is doing this with or without us.  It's where the "real money" is in this market today !!!

Carriers at 8.0 are a prime example of what the US and EU governments are looking into.......  Why?  Because video gaming is a 100 billion dollar a year business....AND, they want their cut of that.....   Any other questions?  Money talks and History walks and.............look at Mad Max on water and that, is what we'll see more of.......  Resistance is Futile.

mad max on the water is great and to be honest where I want dds to be in heavy dd matches more then random battles. Now this isnt an anti dd stance, but more of a DD players need to learn how to fight each other stance. For that one reason, I love the rogue wave. If it translates to more anti dd gameplay by dds then its a win win.

 

also side note you could not really do it with bb or cruisers as they are too large...Maybe low tier cruisers but the map scale would have to be increased to make that happen.

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1 minute ago, The_Chiv said:

There is effective aa and then there is what we have. Before 8.5 I was able to get the atago to to 40 plane kills. IJN didnt have great aa to start but the right skills and mods and usage of consumable turned a ship not known for great aa into a beast. This was not a 1 time thing either. Infact i was able to do this pretty consistently. Apply that same base logic to my other cruisers I was able to do the same thing. So the tools were there before 8.5, just most were either not using them or using them poorly.

How many of those were fighters vs strike planes?  What CV were you up against?

in reality, the current AA is a step in the right direction.  They need to improve the scaling of the lower tier CVs but T10 is much improved. The spotting mechanics of the CV also need a lot of work.  Much of the game was based on spotting mechanics, and that has been borked by the rework

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