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Nembrot

Let's rework CV...

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Dear Wargaming,
I get it that balancing a CV is hell of a job, because CV play is completly different from a regular ship play. But it is possible.
As it is right now, CVs are playing a game vs AI. Since there are only two AA zones, one can easily assume that by the time you get to T10 you know how and when to switch, so CV is basically always going vs stronger zone. The way the flak is fired has nothing to do with player skill and given the fact that it can spawn in an undoggable place again points to playing vs AI and RNG, which has nothing to do with player skill. On the other side we have ship to ship combat where it is almost solely based on player skill, on one side of the equation we got an aim skill and the other is dodge, both belong to human players. Nobody complains about the basics there, it's all fine.

So here's my idea (or maybe someone beat me to it TL;DR) how to change the way air works to make it more resembling the ship-to-ship one.
It may sound stupid at first, but please WG and i-know-better-users, try to get the whole picture first, before jumping to conclusions.

1. There is no such thing as number of aircrafts in an attack wing, after take off they can attack indefinitely.
2. Initiating an attack run triggers a cooldown for next attack run.
3. During attack run, just like now, fighters are getting more accurate, manouvering the planes affects the targetting less then now. Being hit with AA, affects the targetting greatly.
4. After attack run is complete, being hit with AA extends the cooldown for next attack.
5. Once return to carrier order is issued, the player can immediately start different type of planes, while current planes return to carrier, but fighter type that has not yet returned to carrier can not be selected before it returns.
6. General damage values are lower then now.
7. Rockets would be the least damage, easiest to hit fast targets, tiny chance of destrying AA on a ship.
8. Bombs medium damage, higher chance of destrying AA on a ship.
9. Torpedos highest damage, no chance of destroying AA on a ship.
10. The aiming of torpedos while being hit by multiple AA sources would really be crap, including going deep, never arming, to prevent only torps play and promoting clearing AA first.

The idea behind is to put CV player skill of picking the right attack angle, timing of executing the rocket fire/ bomb drop/ torp launch while his targetting is going crazy due to being hit by AA, to put it VS ship player ability to dodge and be in zones of mutual support of other ships in order to make CV player aim worse.

Cheers

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In patch 0.8.0, CV play was possible.

0.8.0.1, Niet conrad...

until WG figures out to stop making game play decision of smaller ships unbearable VS big ships. Balance will not be achieved.

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Solution. Roll back to pre CV rework and start with a better base :p

I still firmly believe RTS CV was vastly superior to what we have now, and able to be balanced much easier.

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While I'm not a big fan of these specific ideas, I appreciate that you've put some thought into them and I believe that you're presenting them from a good place (an honest desire to see that the game is fairly balanced for all classes).

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I'd change the way we handle planes. Instead of having a set amount available and they restore over time. you would have infinate planes. HOWEVER you would have two HP pool's. your CV pool, and your plane pool. your CV HP pool works like it does now, but your plane HP pool does not. destroying aircraft doesn't touch it, instead planes consume a certain amount of HP(or resource if you want to call it that) with every squad that get's launched.  say a midway has 1,000 plane resource, in this case lets say attack aircraft cost 70, torpedo 100, and dive bombers 150. meaning that you can send out at most  10 squads of torpedo bomber's.  once you deplete this resource it's gone for the match, no restoring it. after that all you can do is control your CV, you are in this case deplaned.

However their is a catch, if you lose say 2 flights of torpedo bombers one after another, the next flight would then cost triple.(within say 2 minutes) This is to discourage  just yoloing flights one after another.

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1 hour ago, Kaga_Kai_Ni said:

Solution. Roll back to pre CV rework and start with a better base :p

I still firmly believe RTS CV was vastly superior to what we have now, and able to be balanced much easier.

Agreed.
They only needed to adjust numbers, remove fighter's strafe.

And if WG increases the regeneration of planes (say in 8.6 or 8.7), it penalizes every surface boats late-game. 
Right now a CV that got hammered comes at you with incomplete squadrons, but you have incomplete AA arsenal unless you hid all match.

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1 hour ago, Xplato said:

I'd change the way we handle planes. Instead of having a set amount available and they restore over time. you would have infinate planes. HOWEVER you would have two HP pool's. your CV pool, and your plane pool. your CV HP pool works like it does now, but your plane HP pool does not. destroying aircraft doesn't touch it, instead planes consume a certain amount of HP(or resource if you want to call it that) with every squad that get's launched.  say a midway has 1,000 plane resource, in this case lets say attack aircraft cost 70, torpedo 100, and dive bombers 150. meaning that you can send out at most  10 squads of torpedo bomber's.  once you deplete this resource it's gone for the match, no restoring it. after that all you can do is control your CV, you are in this case deplaned.

However their is a catch, if you lose say 2 flights of torpedo bombers one after another, the next flight would then cost triple.(within say 2 minutes) This is to discourage  just yoloing flights one after another.

Sure, if you hard nerf AA to be almost useless, then lets have limited ammo for all other ship types too, so that when when they run out, they're essentially useless too.

 

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Everyone is overreacting.  There will eventually be balance between CVs and the game.  In fact, the chart below shows that.  When those 2 lines intersect we will know that balance has been achieved. 

 

Balance.jpg

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1 hour ago, Francois424 said:

Agreed.
They only needed to adjust numbers, remove fighter's strafe.

And if WG increases the regeneration of planes (say in 8.6 or 8.7), it penalizes every surface boats late-game. 
Right now a CV that got hammered comes at you with incomplete squadrons, but you have incomplete AA arsenal unless you hid all match.

Fighter strafe was fine. In fact, removing fighter strafe and making it just about fighter locking would most definitely make things worse. (We'd back to an RNG > Skill system again, like AA.)

What was needed was refinements to control, balance, and UI.

I made a really detailed thread a while ago if you're interested in a read:

 

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1 hour ago, MajesticTwelve said:

Sure, if you hard nerf AA to be almost useless, then lets have limited ammo for all other ship types too, so that when when they run out, they're essentially useless too. 

 

your missing the issue with the current CV rework. not being able to really deplane a CV is something a lot of players dislike about it. yoloing squad after squad of planes shouldn't be something that you should be able to do and not get deplaned.

 

The current AA doesn't even solve the issue of CV only targeting DD's, in fact it's making it even worse, because now CV are almost forced to target them over every other class. say their is a des moines, a Montana, and a gearing within 10KM, who am I going to want to attack out of all 3? Before I could attack any of them really. now? Only the gearing because the other two will kill all of my planes before I can even drop If I'm lucky.(assuming no slingshot)

 

The issue is you want AA to be good, so that players in ships that have great AA don't feel shafted, but you also don't want it too good(like it is now) so that CV players don't feel like the only targets they can take on and not lose half their planes are DD's.

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2 hours ago, DouglasMacAwful said:

Everyone is overreacting.  There will eventually be balance between CVs and the game.  In fact, the chart below shows that.  When those 2 lines intersect we will know that balance has been achieved. 

 

Balance.jpg

Well played. Understanding of Euclidean geometry duly noted. :Smile_teethhappy:

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6 hours ago, Kaga_Kai_Ni said:

Solution. Roll back to pre CV rework and start with a better base :p

I still firmly believe RTS CV was vastly superior to what we have now, and able to be balanced much easier.

+1

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I must say that I'm totally not suprised how almost everyone ignored my post nad just got stuck in their own reality.

1. WG will not rollback CV change.
2. CV can do punishing damage to single ship and it's almost at the level of getting your cruiser one shotted by a battleship, only target ship players have a feeling they can do nothng about it.
3. CV players spend lots of time in battles by doing the flying to target, which is boring and very out of scope of what this game is about.
4. CV vs non-CV fight must be brought to some sort of skill based competition, because right now it's AI vs CV skill on approach and AI+bit of dodge vs CV skill on attack.
5. The game must not be complicated by additional buttons and actions player can take.

My belief is that my idea is addressing those.
I think that CV players would not mind dealing less damage, but instead of constant flying from CV to die, the would have to circle out of AA range and back, that when doing an attack run they would have to learn how to aim while being shot at. That their would have to bomb ships before torpedo them to have better chance of actually hitting the target.

Please, give me some constructive criticism On The Topic.

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7 hours ago, Kaga_Kai_Ni said:

Fighter strafe was fine. In fact, removing fighter strafe and making it just about fighter locking would most definitely make things worse. (We'd back to an RNG > Skill system again, like AA.)

What was needed was refinements to control, balance, and UI.

I made a really detailed thread a while ago if you're interested in a read:

 

Fighter strafe was the difference between your CV shutting down the enemy CV or vice versa. The skill gap with the strafe determined most games. That, and sniping the enemy CV.

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7 hours ago, 10T0nHammer said:

Fighter strafe was the difference between your CV shutting down the enemy CV or vice versa. The skill gap with the strafe determined most games. That, and sniping the enemy CV.

Strafe was added specifically to stop sniping and grouped up attacks.
You don't need to tell me that, I was safely unicum at CV and very aware of the skill gap. (Which is worse now.)

However, strafe if it really was (I personally do not believe it was) that much of an issue, it could be tweaked and tuned.

Again, things could be reworked and rebalanced in the old system to keep it dynamic.

However, you really do not want to remove the ability of stuff like strafe, otherwise, you have the same issue this one has again. No CV on CV interaction. Which drastically increases the power of a CV.

Edited by Kaga_Kai_Ni

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