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LoveBote

WW2 era CV vs Submarines with ww2 era torpedos, in 1984

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Excellent National Interest article for those interested.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/how-aircraft-carrier-and-submarine-hunted-each-other-during-falklands-war-63657

partipants : 

Argentina : 

  • Veinticinco de Mayo  originally a British carrier launched in 1945 named the HMS Venerable, sold to The Netherlands in 48, renamed as Karel Doorman, before being resold to Argentina in 1969. Equipped in 1982 with Skyhawks, ex U.S. Navy S-2E Trackers with sonar buoys, Sea King helicopters with dipping sonar
  • Py, former Gearing class destroyer, USS Perkins. Advanced long range sonar.
  • Santisima Trinidad -  British export type 42 destroyer
  • Hercules -  British export type 42 destroyer

Britain : 

  • Churchill class (nuclear powered) HMS Conqueror armed with anti sub Tigerfish torpedos, anti ship Mk 8 (ww2  era) torpedos.
  • Swiftsure class (nuclear powered) HMS Splendid and Spartan, armed with anti sub Tigerfish torpedos, anti ship Mk 8 (ww2  era) torpedos.
  • Valiant class (nulcear powered) HMS Valiant
  • Oberon class (diesel electric) HMS Onyx

Enjoy the read.

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related articles : 

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/tragedy-averted-1982-two-aircraft-carriers-nearly-went-war-62622

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HNLMS_Karel_Doorman_(R81) (Collosus Class ARA Veinticinco de Mayo 1969-1997 , HNMLS Karel Doorman 1948-1968, HMS Venerable 1943-1947)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1942_Design_Light_Fleet_Carrier (Collosus class light aircraft carriers)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Perkins_(DD-877) (Gearing Class ARA Py 1973-1987, USS Perkins, 1944-1973)

330px-Argentine_destroyer_ARA_Py_(D-27)_

 

Video of HMS Venerable  HNLMLS Karel Doorman Veinticinco de Mayo  in action! a@Lert

and a remarkable piece of ordnance, that has served since 1927 and which is still in use (well, storage we hope!)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_21-inch_torpedo#Mark_VIII

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deleted post

Edited by Royeaux
At request of OP, all references to Argentina have been removed from this post.

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16 minutes ago, Royeaux said:

deleted post

 

At request of OP, all references to Argentina have been removed from this post.

 

/

As long as discussion is confined to the subject of CVs versus submarines, and avoids the taint of politics, mention of Argentina is fine. Obviously. But the primary reason for the OP is to encourage forumites to read the linked article.

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Don't forget that the General Belgrano, the cruiser that HMS Conqueror sunk, was the Brooklyn-class CL USS Phoenix in a past life.

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6 minutes ago, 1Sherman said:

Don't forget that the General Belgrano, the cruiser that HMS Conqueror sunk, was the Brooklyn-class CL USS Phoenix in a past life.

this was a separate but related incident. The Nat Interest article I have linked explains the relationship of tactical manouvres vis the Argentine Carrier. Belgrano's demise was a major reason why Veinticinco de Mayo turned around and headed for shallow seas, Argentine (and so by the rules of this particular war, considered off limits to naval engagements) coastal waters, to shake off British submarines that were hunting her.

Also the shallow, clear waters of the continental shelf were dangerous for the big nuclear subs to navigate, submarine collision was a great danger  (HMS Onyx, a diesel electric bumped a rock!) even submerged they were in danger of being visually identified, while they could not dive as effectively to hide from those hunting them.

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55 minutes ago, Royeaux said:

*edit*

 

Life the Universe and Everything is political, but politics are not encouraged on this forum, for obvious reasons. Go play elsewhere.

Edited by lochlan_

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Argentina plays on this server and I know there a few bilengual Argentines who browse the English section on a semi regular basis. I agree we should keep this as politically neutral as possible here. 

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36 minutes ago, LoveBote said:

Life the Universe and Everything is political, but politics are not encouraged on this forum, for obvious reasons. Go play elsewhere.

An inquiry about a uniform is not political.  Your being hyper-sensitive.

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1 hour ago, LoveBote said:

Excellent National Interest article for those interested.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/how-aircraft-carrier-and-submarine-hunted-each-other-during-falklands-war-63657

partipants : 

Argentina : 

  • Veinticinco de Mayo  originally a British carrier launched in 1945 named the HMS Venerable, sold to The Netherlands in 48, renamed as Karel Doorman, before being resold to Argentina in 1969. Equipped in 1982 with Skyhawks, ex U.S. Navy S-2E Trackers with sonar buoys, Sea King helicopters with dipping sonar
  • Py, former Gearing class destroyer, USS Perkins. Advanced long range sonar.
  • Santisima Trinidad - former British type 42 destroyer
  • Hercules - former British type 42 destroyer

Britain : 

  • Churchill class (nuclear powered) HMS Conqueror armed with anti sub Tigerfish torpedos, anti ship Mk 8 (ww2  era) torpedos.
  • Swiftsure class (nuclear powered) HMS Splendid and Spartan, armed with anti sub Tigerfish torpedos, anti ship Mk 8 (ww2  era) torpedos.
  • Valiant class (nulcear powered) HMS Valiant
  • Oberon class (diesel electric) HMS Onyx

Enjoy the read.

Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't some of Argentina's submarines in the Falkland's campaign former German U-Boats also which goes to show no matter what you felt about 1930/40's Germany they built some of the best war machines.     

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9 minutes ago, Royeaux said:

An inquiry about a uniform is not political.  Your being hyper-sensitive.

it is plainly offtopic, having nothing to do with the article in question. Yes I am sensitive to having topics derailed by people who cannot be bothered to read the OP and reply, with the OP in mind.

also do read : 

 

7 minutes ago, tm63au said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't some of Argentina's submarines in the Falkland's campaign former German U-Boats also which goes to show no matter what you felt about 1930/40's Germany they built some of the best war machines.     

type 209s were German exports from the 1960s I think. Argentina did deploy an ex USN American Balao class sub, former USS Catfish, which was ww2 era.

 

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The two Type 42s were both built for Argentina from the get-go.   

The 21" torpedo in question is the Mk 8 Mod 4. As the name suggests it was the fourth modification of the eighth 21" torpedo in the series, the original Mk VII dating from the mid-late 1920s.  It is believed to still be in limited service, which isn't bad, all things considered. 

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5 minutes ago, mr3awsome said:

The two Type 42s were both built for Argentina from the get-go.   

The 21" torpedo in question is the Mk 8 Mod 4. As the name suggests it was the fourth modification of the eighth 21" torpedo in the series, the original Mk VII dating from the mid-late 1920s.  It is believed to still be in limited service, which isn't bad, all things considered. 

I have read so many stories about torpedoes of all nations, in all periods, proving "unreliable" (including a few launched by both sides in '84), and the struggle to design and manufacture effective, dud free examples, a long road. A reliable munition in any other weapon system would be taken for granted!

I guess the mk8s deployed 40 years after ww2, must have undergone some upgrades nevertheless, although wikipedia only mentions a range increase and modest increase to the explosive charge between 1927 and the 80s.

WIll correct the OP regarding the type 42s.

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3 hours ago, LoveBote said:

Video of HMS Venerable  HNLMLS Karel Doorman Veinticinco de Mayo  in action! a@Lert

 

Thanks for posting and tagging! It was interesting to see the Dutch play at aircraft carriers. The narrator made it seem like HNLMS Karel Doorman was so awesome and important, but after selling her we never ran another CV. Guess it wasn't important enough and / or too expensive. I also really enjoyed the bits of footage we got of two Friesland class destroyers, namely D813 HNLMS Groningen and one that I couldn't quite read the number of.

Ol' HMS Venerable really lived up to her name by the end, didn't she.

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12 minutes ago, Lert said:

Thanks for posting and tagging! It was interesting to see the Dutch play at aircraft carriers. The narrator made it seem like HNLMS Karel Doorman was so awesome and important, but after selling her we never ran another CV. Guess it wasn't important enough and / or too expensive. I also really enjoyed the bits of footage we got of two Friesland class destroyers, namely D813 HNLMS Groningen and one that I couldn't quite read the number of.

Ol' HMS Venerable really lived up to her name by the end, didn't she.

she did indeed, and played pied piper to a very large number of (modern) enemy submarines, successfuly. This particular story might inspire fictional WOWS scenarios (when submarines are finally implemented) with the deployment of varied sonar assets; surface escorts, airbone units, and of course, the terrain/

there are a few other nice vids of Karel Doorman on youtube, but that was the only one in colour, and very comprehensive shots of various landings and takeoffs (not to mention escorts).

problem with CVs is that they are expensive, as you say. even light anti sub carriers. But she proved her worth, even if mostly forgotten amid all the dramatic and of course tragic encounters of war. Escaping (and trying to prosecute) half a dozen mostly very modern subs in a sophisticated ("desperate" if we prefer a glass half empty adjective) operation, is however, worth a toast!

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She ran to what was known to be a DMZ as designated by the British. She lived because the UK allowed it, I'm sure those Harriers and Type 21 Frigates would of loved to send her to the bottom if the restrictive RoE didn't get in the way. (See the US and Vietnam.)

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13 minutes ago, TornadoADV said:

She ran to what was known to be a DMZ as designated by the British. She lived because the UK allowed it, I'm sure those Harriers and Type 21 Frigates would of loved to send her to the bottom if the restrictive RoE didn't get in the way. (See the US and Vietnam.)

But she had to get to the DMZ, unscathed, in the first place. Which to her credit, she managed.

All wars have their own rules by which both sides agree to play, this was no exception. The DMZ was there to limit the risk of escalation, which neither side desired.

But even before reaching the DMZ, the initial run for cover, made a zig zag beeline for shallow waters, (as mentioned in one of my other replies ot this thread), which caused trouble for the RN submarines, nonetheless (risk of underwater terrain collision, greater risk of being detected)/.

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36 minutes ago, LoveBote said:

she did indeed, and played pied piper to a very large number of (modern) enemy submarines, successfuly. This particular story might inspire fictional WOWS scenarios (when submarines are finally implemented) with the deployment of varied sonar assets; surface escorts, airbone units, and of course, the terrain/

there are a few other nice vids of Karel Doorman on youtube, but that was the only one in colour, and very comprehensive shots of various landings and takeoffs (not to mention escorts).

problem with CVs is that they are expensive, as you say. even light anti sub carriers. But she proved her worth, even if mostly forgotten amid all the dramatic and of course tragic encounters of war. Escaping (and trying to prosecute) half a dozen mostly very modern subs in a sophisticated ("desperate" if we prefer a glass half empty adjective) operation, is however, worth a toast!

Very much so.

20hqpdr.jpg

You know, this thread and the video you linked got my gears turning. Expect a proposal for a T6 Karel Doorman premium proposal soon. I'm thinking her historical Firefly rocketplanes / level bombers, her historical Sea Fury consumable fighters, and a-historical Barracuda TBs. She never operated Barracudas while in Dutch service, but seeing as she operated Fireflies which were about as big / heavy and of a very similar vintage, it's very likely she would've operated them had it been deemed necessary to give her an anti-surface role alongside her ASW duties.

As a gimmick she might even be the first ship in this game to use helicopters for spotting / recon, as she carried Sikorsky H-5s during her early service under the Dutch flag. She carried S-55s later, but I'll stick to her early Dutch service air wing. Maybe introducing a new, slower speed but longer duration, unarmed recon / spotting 'plane' in the form of H-5 Sikorskys to make up for the fact that the Karel Doorman is rather small and slow for her tiering ... ? Hmmmmmmmm .....

The gears are turning indeed ...

<Edit> Have to be very careful with a special recon 'plane' / mechanic though.

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4 hours ago, LoveBote said:

/

As long as discussion is confined to the subject of CVs versus submarines, and avoids the taint of politics, mention of Argentina is fine. Obviously. But the primary reason for the OP is to encourage forumites to read the linked article.

How can you discuss the engagement without mentioning the countries/nations involved? Bizarre. 

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2 minutes ago, Herr_Reitz said:

How can you discuss the engagement without mentioning the countries/nations involved? Bizarre. 

nobody has stated you can't.

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1 hour ago, LoveBote said:

nobody has stated you can't.

Then what's this? (below)

 

5 hours ago, LoveBote said:

deleted post

 

At request of OP, all references to Argentina have been removed from this post.

I missed something here I see... 

Moving on! 

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42 minutes ago, Herr_Reitz said:

Then what's this? (below)

 

I have no idea. I am glad this topic interests you so much. Feel free to contribute.

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7 hours ago, LoveBote said:

Excellent National Interest article for those interested.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/how-aircraft-carrier-and-submarine-hunted-each-other-during-falklands-war-63657

partipants : 

Argentina : 

  • Veinticinco de Mayo  originally a British carrier launched in 1945 named the HMS Venerable, sold to The Netherlands in 48, renamed as Karel Doorman, before being resold to Argentina in 1969. Equipped in 1982 with Skyhawks, ex U.S. Navy S-2E Trackers with sonar buoys, Sea King helicopters with dipping sonar
  • Py, former Gearing class destroyer, USS Perkins. Advanced long range sonar.
  • Santisima Trinidad -  British export type 42 destroyer
  • Hercules -  British export type 42 destroyer

Britain : 

  • Churchill class (nuclear powered) HMS Conqueror armed with anti sub Tigerfish torpedos, anti ship Mk 8 (ww2  era) torpedos.
  • Swiftsure class (nuclear powered) HMS Splendid and Spartan, armed with anti sub Tigerfish torpedos, anti ship Mk 8 (ww2  era) torpedos.
  • Valiant class (nulcear powered) HMS Valiant
  • Oberon class (diesel electric) HMS Onyx

Enjoy the read.

Thank you for the article the information @LoveBote. I find it interesting that even in the 80's the Gearing , in it's latest configuration was still able to provide a very capable ASW role. A great many of the WW II ships had amazing bones and basic structures that passed the test of time. Here is the link to more info on the Py aka DD 877 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Perkins_(DD-877) 

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12 minutes ago, BTed72 said:

Thank you for the article the information @LoveBote. I find it interesting that even in the 80's the Gearing , in it's latest configuration was still able to provide a very capable ASW role. A great many of the WW II ships had amazing bones and basic structures that passed the test of time. Here is the link to more info on the Py aka DD 877 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Perkins_(DD-877) 

to think, ww2 era surface ships (ok, modernized ww2 era surface ships) jousting and surviving an encounter with some of the most powerful warships of ther Cold War (Swiftsure, Churchills and even the Oberon class Onyx.) As you say, amazing bones.

ty for the link.

tunneling to this : 300px-QH-50_DD-692_1967.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrodyne_QH-50_DASH

sub hunting drone helicopter...

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1 hour ago, BTed72 said:

A great many of the WW II ships had amazing bones and basic structures that passed the test of time.

No kidding. I still have a large measure of national pride for the hull that the Royal Netherlands Navy laid down in 1939, commissioned in 1953 to a revised design and served in active duty until 2017 (albeit the last 45 years under Peruvian flag) and am hoping she'll make it into the game some time.

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