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ruar

Five suggestions about CVs for discussion

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What do y'all think of the following.  Please note I'm asking for feedback and opinions on these, I'm not proposing them to WG or think they should be implemented anytime soon.  I just want some interesting discussion.

1.  Add a heal squadron to the CV hangar.  A slow squadron that drops a bouy/flare/marker/whatever that creates a healing circle similar to what the Liberty Commander does in Narai.  Maybe have it be an area of smoke that stops fires and flooding when entered?  Have it so every HP healed is worth 1.25 the exp value of damage so carrier pilots wouldn't be wasting their time dropping heals instead of doing damage.  Maybe a strip of smoke that they drop down on a moving ship or ahead of a ship that the ship can pass through and get a 10-15% heal.  

2. Would having planes going back to being a limited resource help?  I know they aren't infinite and are limited by the time in the match, but why not have a total number of planes that can be launched throughout the match like in the RTS instead of having the spawn timer.  This would allow captains to customize their plane loadouts again and it means that shooting down a plane has satisfaction for the ship captains.  It also changes the flow of a fight as the CV hull would need to be more engaged when they run out of planes or simply have a lull when they don't attack while they wait for AA to get reduced.  I used to think it was unfair to CVs to run out of planes but if planes are kind of like the HP of CVs then maybe they should be limited like ship HP.

3.  Increase alpha strike of torpedoes but remove flooding chance.  Figure out what the average flood damage is for air dropped torps at each tier and then add that damage in as alpha instead of as flooding.  Same damage done on average but more noticeable to the pilot.  Also makes reacting to torpedo attacks needed but removes the annoyance of having to DC for plane attacks.  Maybe do similar with bombs and remove chance of fire but increase damage.  

4.  Reducing the damage flak does but extending it's range to 10k.  This makes it harder for planes to spot because they'll be taking fire sooner but the damage isn't catastrophic.  This would make DFAA and sector control more important as well since that will give you a boost to flak damage.  This would also give ships a little bit of power over what planes do and shift the initiative away from planes. 

5.  Add in clouds to act as sky terrain.  I assume these would have to be stationary and would just be smoke screens in the air, but if it gives ships some terrain to use to hide from planes then it might be worth doing.  Planes can fly through but they won't be able to spot anything while they are in the clouds.

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Could solve it all with one simple change.

Two queues, one with CV, one without....

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2 minutes ago, awiggin said:

Could solve it all with one simple change.

Two queues, one with CV, one without....

Ive come to the conclusion, this is probably the only answer. The CV queue will just end up being queue dumps, but it is what it is.

A good portion of anti-cv'ers, are just anti-cv; there is no solution/rework/change that will magically fix CVs to them.

 

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46 minutes ago, ruar said:

What do y'all think of the following.  Please note I'm asking for feedback and opinions on these, I'm not proposing them to WG or think they should be implemented anytime soon.  I just want some interesting discussion.

1.  Add a heal squadron to the CV hangar.  A slow squadron that drops a bouy/flare/marker/whatever that creates a healing circle similar to what the Liberty Commander does in Narai.  Maybe have it be an area of smoke that stops fires and flooding when entered?  Have it so every HP healed is worth 1.25 the exp value of damage so carrier pilots wouldn't be wasting their time dropping heals instead of doing damage.  Maybe a strip of smoke that they drop down on a moving ship or ahead of a ship that the ship can pass through and get a 10-15% heal.  

2. Would having planes going back to being a limited resource help?  I know they aren't infinite and are limited by the time in the match, but why not have a total number of planes that can be launched throughout the match like in the RTS instead of having the spawn timer.  This would allow captains to customize their plane loadouts again and it means that shooting down a plane has satisfaction for the ship captains.  It also changes the flow of a fight as the CV hull would need to be more engaged when they run out of planes or simply have a lull when they don't attack while they wait for AA to get reduced.  I used to think it was unfair to CVs to run out of planes but if planes are kind of like the HP of CVs then maybe they should be limited like ship HP.

3.  Increase alpha strike of torpedoes but remove flooding chance.  Figure out what the average flood damage is for air dropped torps at each tier and then add that damage in as alpha instead of as flooding.  Same damage done on average but more noticeable to the pilot.  Also makes reacting to torpedo attacks needed but removes the annoyance of having to DC for plane attacks.  Maybe do similar with bombs and remove chance of fire but increase damage.  

4.  Reducing the damage flak does but extending it's range to 10k.  This makes it harder for planes to spot because they'll be taking fire sooner but the damage isn't catastrophic.  This would make DFAA and sector control more important as well since that will give you a boost to flak damage.  This would also give ships a little bit of power over what planes do and shift the initiative away from planes. 

5.  Add in clouds to act as sky terrain.  I assume these would have to be stationary and would just be smoke screens in the air, but if it gives ships some terrain to use to hide from planes then it might be worth doing.  Planes can fly through but they won't be able to spot anything while they are in the clouds.

Some decent ideas.

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1) Interesting but just like the fighter consumable the CV player needs to have his planes in the right area pretty much by luck before hand.

2) No, going back to the old hanger limit system would allow CV's to become toothless early in the match and the devs don't want CV's to become completely deplaned. They want them to be able to do steady damage throughout the match more like other ships.

3) Leave the flooding chance as it is insanely low to begin with. Floods are not almost guaranteed death like they used to be anyway. Air dropped torpedoes do need a buff though.

4) No, there are to many ships that have air detection AA range and by the time the ship renders the planes are far into the AA already. Even longer ranged AA would make it even worse for bottom tier CV's who struggle already. Better is to address the AA scaling issue which would help both bottom tier CV's and other ships that are bottom tier to CV's. Also adjust the AA of the super strong ships to levels that don't force sling shot attacks.

5) I like the idea.

6) Yeah you stopped at five but AA from smoke should have some gun bloom. Not a lot but enough that planes flying over the smoke can see them just for a bit but they would lose sight as they came around just as happens against DD's with the AA off in the open now.

19 minutes ago, awiggin said:

Could solve it all with one simple change.

Two queues, one with CV, one without....

You have a much better chance of winning the powerball jackpot. Why do people keep asking for what they know is impossible.

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1) Can you imagine how many DDs will beg CV to send a heal their way?

2) If planes become limited, they'll need appropriate survival buff.

3) I'd prefer more of the squadron attack at once. The torps aren't very powerful but still get players turning to avoid them.

4) Expanding AA range isn't a viable answer. Fixing the preloaded junk is.

5) More complexity isn't necessarily gonna sit well w/ playerbase.

Fair effort, but 0.8.0 CVs and AA changed to preload like other armaments would've done the job better. WG just won't stop keeping it complicated.

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1 hour ago, awiggin said:

Could solve it all with one simple change.

Two queues, one with CV, one without....

Hrm, what about forums?  One with whiners, one without?

 

41 minutes ago, Reymu said:

Fixing the preloaded junk is.

preloaded junk? 

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2 hours ago, awiggin said:

Could solve it all with one simple change.

Two queues, one with CV, one without....

Ya and we can lump everything players complain about into the "No CV" que. No CVs, no stealth, no HE, no smoke firing, no radar through islands, ect

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7 minutes ago, StoneRhino said:

Ya and we can lump everything players complain about into the "No CV" que. No CVs, no stealth, no HE, no smoke firing, no radar through islands, ect

Yep, if one exclusion is allowed they will have to allow others and it would be a train wreck.

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1 minute ago, BrushWolf said:

Yep, if one exclusion is allowed they will have to allow others and it would be a train wreck.

Na, just dump them all into the same trash heap que.

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1. I'm not sure if it's a good idea to add more heals to the game, but a small one might be OK.  It's fine in occasional events like Halloween or Space, but we should be careful about adding too much to the core game.  WG has mentioned looking at a 2nd CV line with these kind of support abilities.

2. I don't think it would change much.  Once hanger sizes are appropriately balanced, good players will learn how aggressive they can be in losing planes while still having enough to influence endgame, while bad players will often lose enough to lose effectiveness.  Psychologically, it might feel better shooting down planes, but it will probably still feel like unending waves of plane strikes with little counterplay.

3. I don't think this will help.  All damage from planes being alpha, rather than some being in DoT, means there is no counterplay in good usage of DCP, and less of the damage will be repairable, especially torpedo damage counting as citadel damage.

4. To avoid stealth AA issues, incresing flak range to 10km would mean also increasing air spotting range for all ships with flak to 10km.  This might not be bad, but I'm not sure how it would play out.  I think some aircraft have detection ranges below 10km, which might also cause problems.

5. This was discussed in another thread:

This was my conclusion after that discussion:
I thought it might be an interesting mechanic, because both sides potentially have ways exploit it to their advantage, but I don't see there being good enough counterplay for it to make the game more fun for both sides.

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8 hours ago, awiggin said:

Could solve it all with one simple change.

Two queues, one with CV, one without....

Fine then I want a no DD Queue so I don't have to listen to moaning from DD players during a game.

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12 hours ago, ruar said:

5.  Add in clouds to act as sky terrain.  I assume these would have to be stationary and would just be smoke screens in the air, but if it gives ships some terrain to use to hide from planes then it might be worth doing.  Planes can fly through but they won't be able to spot anything while they are in the clouds.

Really like that Cloud Idea.  I don't know how much the Devs do however.  Sounds like a programming nightmare.

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I'll say all except 4(with adds nothing but bad visibility) is good idea.

Under proper adjustments and testing I can see them being interesting.

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12 hours ago, ruar said:

What do y'all think of the following.  Please note I'm asking for feedback and opinions on these, I'm not proposing them to WG or think they should be implemented anytime soon.  I just want some interesting discussion.

1.  Add a heal squadron to the CV hangar.  A slow squadron that drops a bouy/flare/marker/whatever that creates a healing circle similar to what the Liberty Commander does in Narai.  Maybe have it be an area of smoke that stops fires and flooding when entered?  Have it so every HP healed is worth 1.25 the exp value of damage so carrier pilots wouldn't be wasting their time dropping heals instead of doing damage.  Maybe a strip of smoke that they drop down on a moving ship or ahead of a ship that the ship can pass through and get a 10-15% heal.  

2. Would having planes going back to being a limited resource help?  I know they aren't infinite and are limited by the time in the match, but why not have a total number of planes that can be launched throughout the match like in the RTS instead of having the spawn timer.  This would allow captains to customize their plane loadouts again and it means that shooting down a plane has satisfaction for the ship captains.  It also changes the flow of a fight as the CV hull would need to be more engaged when they run out of planes or simply have a lull when they don't attack while they wait for AA to get reduced.  I used to think it was unfair to CVs to run out of planes but if planes are kind of like the HP of CVs then maybe they should be limited like ship HP.

3.  Increase alpha strike of torpedoes but remove flooding chance.  Figure out what the average flood damage is for air dropped torps at each tier and then add that damage in as alpha instead of as flooding.  Same damage done on average but more noticeable to the pilot.  Also makes reacting to torpedo attacks needed but removes the annoyance of having to DC for plane attacks.  Maybe do similar with bombs and remove chance of fire but increase damage.  

4.  Reducing the damage flak does but extending it's range to 10k.  This makes it harder for planes to spot because they'll be taking fire sooner but the damage isn't catastrophic.  This would make DFAA and sector control more important as well since that will give you a boost to flak damage.  This would also give ships a little bit of power over what planes do and shift the initiative away from planes. 

5.  Add in clouds to act as sky terrain.  I assume these would have to be stationary and would just be smoke screens in the air, but if it gives ships some terrain to use to hide from planes then it might be worth doing.  Planes can fly through but they won't be able to spot anything while they are in the clouds.

1. I can hear it now "the #^%$@#!^# CV was kill stealing when he should have been dropping repair buoys" or one of many other complaints berating the CV for "not doing his job." I do not see it being that useful.

2. Planes are not ordnance and should be limited by a fixed amount not time. But unlimited planes (WG said unlimited planes so argue with them not me) is a major part of the rework and it would require a a lot of changes to keep CV attractive for players.

3. I see pros & cons but I'm not sure if one outweighs the other.

4. I don't think either side of the CV war would like this one.

5.

Quote

This was my conclusion after that discussion:
I thought it might be an interesting mechanic, because both sides potentially have ways exploit it to their advantage, but I don't see there being good enough counterplay for it to make the game more fun for both sides.

this^^^^^^^

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13 hours ago, ruar said:

Add a heal squadron to the CV hangar. 

Two things:

1. I wouldn't mind this being tried in a special mode; just not sure how well it would work in normal co-op and randoms.

2. When the hinted-at second line of carriers returns, the aircraft are hinted at doing various special things. This includes laying smoke and possibly even capping (floatplanes). You never know; this proposal MIGHT actually be in the works, but I don't think we'll likely hear about it until next year.

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On 6/23/2019 at 10:38 PM, NoSoMo said:

preloaded junk? 

AA doesn't begin loading until planes are within range. This essentially meant planes could just speed boost in, attack, and thus avoid the worst of it.

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4 hours ago, Reymu said:

AA doesn't begin loading until planes are within range. This essentially meant planes could just speed boost in, attack, and thus avoid the worst of it.

That's how all of the guns work....

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Adding clouds as cover would actually be pretty neat although it could also work both ways. If the sky is overcast, the ships won't see your planes but you'll have a hard time seeing the ships too. I like the idea though!

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