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does anyone feel like every battleship line released since 2017 has been a perpetual "why didn't German BBs get that?" experience?

British BBs bring stupid concealment, as well as a ridiculously good heal. "Why does the ship line that needs to be close have to deal with 13.6 kilometers of concealment?" "why does the ship that was purpose built to hump the H line get the ability to heal most of his health back?"

Massachusetts brings a repair party that reloads in 40 seconds. "Wow, Kurfurst could really have used that." As well as better secondary dispersion than the Germans. "Oh ok I see how it is."

French battleships get speed boost. Some of them receive the reload booster which halves their reload. "Wow, wouldn't the ability to get closer faster really help, say, a dedicated brawler?"

And now, lastly, Russian battleships. God this line.

Outstanding CONCEALMENT. 13.4km AFTER CE has been nerfed for everyone.

This dam con that reloads in under a minute. "ok."

and these guns that become laser beams under 12 kilometers. A buff which they don't have to specifically build for, like, say, secondaries.

And the same armor scheme as the Germans, but without the need to give broadside to bring all guns to bear.

 

Haven't the Germans been screwed enough? Which idiot decided something the size of the Kremlin needed better concealment than Moskva? What's with the dispersion formula that apparently the Germans didn't need, despite having smaller guns overall? Why do you still buff secondary performance without addressing the overall problem that secondaries need to be exclusively built for, while Russian "historically accurate" (not really) dispersion needs no skills to make formidable whatsoever? 

Why does Kremlin have more health than Kurfurst?

Are we just going to ignore that historically, Sovetsky Soyuz would have been the most poorly protected battleship ever launched, using brittle, face-hardened tank armor?

Guess we aren't

 

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Might as well give german bb secondaries, yamato's main gun sigma at this point.

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Yup, Germans have been powercreeped hard. Every new thing that arrives bring something on par with or better than what they can do. I look at my GK and think wow, if I want secondaries on a much better platform, I would go Repub. If I want a damage tank Conqueror is the pick (especially after buffed heal comes), health and close range potential, well Kremlin is a direct replacement. 

 

I feel like this could be fixed by buffing the crapola out of secondaries (Specifically German, but also in general). If you are willing to dump 12 of your 19 valuable capt  points into tier 4 skills for secondaries, they should be doing a major chunk if your damage. Would give Germany back a national flavor, and maybe give it a nice identity in the process. 

 

Just my 2 cents:Smile_bajan2:

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39 minutes ago, general_D_H_Chun said:

And the same armor scheme as the Germans, but without the need to give broadside to bring all guns to bear.

Ahahaha no.

Russian BBs wish they had the same armor as German ones.

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37 minutes ago, Lert said:

Ahahaha no.

Russian BBs wish they had the same armor as German ones.

Uh yep, Russians have nothing close to the same armor scheme.... Find one broadside and have fun OP. 

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22 minutes ago, Ducky_shot said:

Uh yep, Russians have nothing close to the same armor scheme.... Find one broadside and have fun OP. 

It has been satisfying to dev strike them, particularly if their stopped and firing HE.

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Not to say the OP is 100% accurate in their assessment, but the Germans getting the short end of the stick is kind of a common theme in WG games. There are some buffs coming to the Roon, Hindenburg and Z-23 (maybe others too) though.

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2 hours ago, Lert said:

Ahahaha no.

Russian BBs wish they had the same armor as German ones.

So much this. While the OP does bring up some fair points, German BBs still set a pretty high standard for armored protection that Soviet BBs are in no danger of approaching. 

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5 minutes ago, SkaerKrow said:

So much this. While the OP does bring up some fair points, German BBs still set a pretty high standard for armored protection that Soviet BBs are in no danger of approaching. 

Exactly. RUBB are some of the most vulnerable battleships in the game. Even more so than a broadside Yamato or Musashi.

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Concerning my German battleships, I am fine with the armor scheme and the accuracy of the secondaries.

What I would like to see is improved main battery accuracy.  It's pretty bad.

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3 minutes ago, Captain_Slattery said:

Concerning my German battleships, I am fine with the armor scheme and the accuracy of the secondaries.

What I would like to see is improved main battery accuracy.  It's pretty bad.

For me it's a feature...my gunnery is so bad I really on the shotgun to get hits when I aim poorly.

I'm grinding the British line...and having real problems with precise salvos exposing how bad my aim has been. With a German battleship, being precise didnt gain you anything...

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If you think Russian Battleships are armored like the Germans...

 

And that is Kremlin, the one Russian Battleship with a solid armor belt.  GK would get hit hard with Pens & Overpens, but not get outright rekt like this.

German Battleships are the way they are due to several reasons:

1.  German BB Turtlebacks make them the most forgiving forgiving defensively.

2.  Fast speeds for the line, even aritificial refits for ships that never went that fast (Bayern, Konig, etc).

3.  Tons of great Secondary Build candidates across the line.

4.  Torpedo BB in Tier VII within the tech tree, plus 2 more Premium Torpedo BB.

 

So, you have a line that already has a great balance in citadel protection, fantastic secondaries, and even a few torpedo capable ones.  But now you guys want better main battery performance on top of all that?

NO

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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4 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

If you think Russian Battleships are armored like the Germans...

 

And that is Kremlin, the one Russian Battleship with a solid armor belt.  GK would get hit hard with Pens & Overpens, but not get outright rekt like this.

Was that a 60k salvo? Ouchy.

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1 minute ago, RagingxMarmoset said:

Was that a 60k salvo? Ouchy.

A torpedo had hit him taking him from 91k to 82k.  From there he lost 82k HP from the initial Yamato salvo.

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1 minute ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

A torpedo had hit him taking him from 91k to 82k.  From there he lost 82k HP from the initial Yamato salvo.

Jesus. I bet that Yamato driver had a raging boner the rest of the day.

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Just now, RagingxMarmoset said:

Jesus. I bet that Yamato driver had a raging boner the rest of the day.

To be fair, Yamato was actually quite vulnerable herself and Kremlin got off a potentially devastating salvo first.  But Kremlin's aim was a bit high, IMO, even accounting for Yamato's citadel level, I still felt the aim was too high.

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1 hour ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

To be fair, Yamato was actually quite vulnerable herself and Kremlin got off a potentially devastating salvo first.  But Kremlin's aim was a bit high, IMO, even accounting for Yamato's citadel level, I still felt the aim was too high.

My first thought when I saw the Kremlin fire was "Why didn't he aim for the cheek?" That engagement was like two guys tripping down the stairs, but one manages to tumble into the bushes while the other lands teeth first on the curb.

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14 minutes ago, RagingxMarmoset said:

My first thought when I saw the Kremlin fire was "Why didn't he aim for the cheek?" That engagement was like two guys tripping down the stairs, but one manages to tumble into the bushes while the other lands teeth first on the curb.

I think he was going for the Yamato cheek, it's just the aim is off.

GJQIhQL.jpg

 

By the time his shells landed, it hit the center of Yamato and high above the armor belt, hence him getting only Pens and Overpens.

And in the course of the panic in realizing he is broadside to another High Tier BB, much less one with 460mm guns at <7km range, he makes the problem worse by turning AWAY from Yamato, showing an even more perfect broadside to the enemy.  He'd have a better chance in using that nice RU BB Rudder Shift and turn into Yamato and angle, not showing a full broadside.  Probably still eat a bunch of Pens from Yamato like that possibly even a Citadel, but that's way better than smacked by multi-citadel Yamato strikes for 60k of damage.

 

But this is all hindsight of course.  We can all take a lessons away from this disaster.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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Correction for something I said, apologies:

I meant they had the same external armor pattern. If you refer to Kremlin's armor scheme, you'll note that she has 150mm fore end armor belt, 430mm belt, 150mm upper belt, and 60mm deck. Not to mention 60mm lower deck.

Minus a few differences in thickness such as a 50mm deck on Kurfurst, or a small sliver in between fore end bow plates on Kurfurst, they have the same exterior plating scheme, thus rendering them both effective when angled. 

The difference here, is that Kurfurst needs to be broadside to fire all her guns, while Kremlin has no such need. 
 

As for the claim of some that she is vulnerable as long a she gives broadside, I'd like you to test citadelling a Kremlin consistently past 16.5km, full broadside. She does not have the same weakness as the Stalingrad, where getting caught broadside means you can eat 40k from across the map. It doesn't happen very often at all.

As to her close range vulnerability, broadsiding is something I've never found myself doing. There were very few scenarios in this season of ranked where I felt very threatened in the slightest. If she uses an island, which she can, because of her good angles and layout, citadelling you is nigh impossible. Granted, an idiot can easily be devstriked in one of these ships, but even they'll eventually learn to angle after a few games of getting deleted.

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8 hours ago, Ducky_shot said:

Uh yep, Russians have nothing close to the same armor scheme.... Find one broadside and have fun OP. 

With anything above 152mm.

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4 hours ago, DrHolmes52 said:

With anything above 152mm.

shoot, I neglected that simple fact... my bad... :D

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14 hours ago, general_D_H_Chun said:

does anyone feel like every battleship line released since 2017 has been a perpetual "why didn't German BBs get that?" experience?

British BBs bring stupid concealment, as well as a ridiculously good heal. "Why does the ship line that needs to be close have to deal with 13.6 kilometers of concealment?" "why does the ship that was purpose built to hump the H line get the ability to heal most of his health back?"

Massachusetts brings a repair party that reloads in 40 seconds. "Wow, Kurfurst could really have used that." As well as better secondary dispersion than the Germans. "Oh ok I see how it is."

French battleships get speed boost. Some of them receive the reload booster which halves their reload. "Wow, wouldn't the ability to get closer faster really help, say, a dedicated brawler?"

And now, lastly, Russian battleships. God this line.

Outstanding CONCEALMENT. 13.4km AFTER CE has been nerfed for everyone.

This dam con that reloads in under a minute. "ok."

and these guns that become laser beams under 12 kilometers. A buff which they don't have to specifically build for, like, say, secondaries.

And the same armor scheme as the Germans, but without the need to give broadside to bring all guns to bear.

 

Haven't the Germans been screwed enough? Which idiot decided something the size of the Kremlin needed better concealment than Moskva? What's with the dispersion formula that apparently the Germans didn't need, despite having smaller guns overall? Why do you still buff secondary performance without addressing the overall problem that secondaries need to be exclusively built for, while Russian "historically accurate" (not really) dispersion needs no skills to make formidable whatsoever? 

Why does Kremlin have more health than Kurfurst?

Are we just going to ignore that historically, Sovetsky Soyuz would have been the most poorly protected battleship ever launched, using brittle, face-hardened tank armor?

Guess we aren't

 

The problem with German battleships is that their innate design was always no frills, and relied heavily on being damage sponges (IRL, too). Bismarck and Scharnhorst were severely undergunned for their tonnage, and successive Z-plan designs would have widened this gap even further. Suffice it to say, Russian battleships were always going to be really strong because a) power creep, b) they never existed, and c) Wargaming is biased. It's unsurprising that German BBs are what they are.

Edited by Battleship_Elisabeth
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